Cowardice shall be Rewarded

[Mogar]

Quoted for hilarity.

There's a difference between running to save your pixels, and running to continue losing said pixels.

[nyarlathotep]

Actually this has drifted. It is not really the surrender that has caused consternation and dismay, but the fact that he deserted the alliance that he pledged his nations life to defend. Yes, we have that contract saved.

His personal surrender is just icing on the cake, providing further proof of his craven cowardice.

Punishing him for his surrender? Not so much. Punishing him for desertion under fire? Yes, we think. It is my opinion that any alliance worth it's salt, and any ruler from any nation on BOB that would support such an action is also a cowardly politician without the backbone to fight to the knife.

But here at Molon Labe we take things such as this as "serious business."

MOLON LABE!

[DrunkMonkey]

sure, it is a violation of ML's sovereignty to deny them the ability to force some one out of the game. That is the exact attitude that has put you and your ilk in the position you currently dwell.

Prisoners are taken during war. I find it reprehensible that the parties responsible and those protecting the responsible parties find such acts acceptable.

Perhaps Karma should follow some old declarations of your allies and PZI until deletion any hegemony nation still in peace mode.

Grow up. I don't give a damn what alliance you are in or who surrenders, your actions are not justified.

Son, you need to really think before you speak. Me personally, I have never supported PZI/EZI, you can take the guilt by association crap and put it where the sun doesn't shine. The issue here is not a PZI/EZI situation, it is about dolling out punishment to a nation who violated their oath to an alliance. I'm pretty sure this is not a new practice in CN, since spies & traitors are routinely sentenced to ZI.

I've been in TPF Gov since Elysium merged in to TPF and I'm still trying to recall how many alliances we've sentenced to destruction in that time (0). Now I know you are currently galloping along on your high horse, enjoying the feel of what you think is righteousness, but it is a myth. Your retribution has been planned and re-planned for months on end. I pity you, you act as if the alliances on your side are free of the guilt that which you lay solely at the feet of the Hegemony.

As for our ilk, we're in the position that we're in because we will not leave the fight until our allies are free. I doubt very much that you will ever understand that concept. Any further attempt at explanation will be lost on you.

I expect Karma & Co to look the other way and sentence several nations on the Hegemony side to PZI for supposed crimes against CN. Which you have already alluded to. After all, in any large upheaval of doctrine, someone or some group has to die for the sins of the many.

[bzelger]

Son, you need to really think before you speak. Me personally, I have never supported PZI/EZI, you can take the guilt by association crap and put it where the sun doesn't shine.

That doesn't follow. Guilt by association is an exactly correct descriptor for someone in an alliance that practices it (yes, I realize that you no longer do) or that props up alliances that do.

As for our ilk, we're in the position that we're in because we will not leave the fight until our allies are free.

Don't forget that TPF actively engaged in the badgering, spying, and threatening of OV in the lead up to this war. You're as culpable as the NPO in pushing this to war.

I doubt very much that you will ever understand that concept. Any further attempt at explanation will be lost on you.

That's a bold statement. Any reasoning behind it?

[deSouza]

As for our ilk, we're in the position that we're in because we will not leave the fight until our allies are free. I doubt very much that you will ever understand that concept. Any further attempt at explanation will be lost on you.

I remember reading some comments about a lot of alliances joining this conflict out of shame.

What do you have to say about that?

[Bandersnatch]

This isn't about his surrender. his last post on our forums doesn't say "i'm surrendering" it says "I'm resigning"

Yeah, he knew who we were, he knew what we were about. He knew we'd fight for him to the last pixel....he can't or wont do the same in return.

Those of you who respond with excuses for his actions and accusations of abuse or poor leadership are proving that there's likely no other alliance in this game worthy of my allegiance.

If you dont understand what this is about, explaining would be lost on you.

(Edited from the original to fit the situation) Go tell the Spartans, passerby, that here, true to our oath, we die

Molon Labe!!!!

[Chief Savage Man]

Son, you need to really think before you speak. Me personally, I have never supported PZI/EZI, you can take the guilt by association crap and put it where the sun doesn't shine. The issue here is not a PZI/EZI situation, it is about dolling out punishment to a nation who violated their oath to an alliance. I'm pretty sure this is not a new practice in CN, since spies & traitors are routinely sentenced to ZI.

1. He's not your son.

2. I don't care about your views on PZI/EZI, the fact is that your alliance has done it and that does make you guilty by association.

3. Young children are routinely killed by stray bullets in inner cities, awful tragedies in poor countries routinely kill hundreds, houses routinely burn down etc. etc. The whole idea of the Karma coalition is to change what NPO has made routine. Just because it's routine doesn't make it right.

I've been in TPF Gov since Elysium merged in to TPF and I'm still trying to recall how many alliances we've sentenced to destruction in that time (0). Now I know you are currently galloping along on your high horse, enjoying the feel of what you think is righteousness, but it is a myth. Your retribution has been planned and re-planned for months on end. I pity you, you act as if the alliances on your side are free of the guilt that which you lay solely at the feet of the Hegemony.

Answer me this: How many times have you watched your allies sentence alliances to destruction with a peep of protest? It is more or less the same thing. And you are in no position to pity anybody. I pity you because it must be hard to breath with your head so deep in the sand.

As for our ilk, we're in the position that we're in because we will not leave the fight until our allies are free. I doubt very much that you will ever understand that concept. Any further attempt at explanation will be lost on you.

You were more than willing to leave the fight until you realized that there was no escape. I doubt very much that you were a party to the events that took place in your alliance during the Unjust War or else you would know how comical that statement is.

I expect Karma & Co to look the other way and sentence several nations on the Hegemony side to PZI for supposed crimes against CN. Which you have already alluded to. After all, in any large upheaval of doctrine, someone or some group has to die for the sins of the many.

Nobody is getting PZI'd, buddy. The PR would be too bad. Change has come and you're clinging to an honorless corpse. Good luck with that.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Chief Savage Man

[Hydro]

2. Nobody cares about your views on PZI/EZI, the fact is that your alliance has done it and that does make you guilty by association.

Everyone who has the ability to post has the right to express their opinions in a rule-abiding manner. Just because you don't care about his opinions on ZI/PZI doesn't mean that everyone in CN shares that view and, quite frankly, if you don't like it you can go piss up a rope.

[bart416]

announcement, I tried declaring on him, but that damn anarchy thing made it difficult, you have my axe if it means anything.

And you have my hippy bow

[Chief Savage Man]

Everyone who has the ability to post has the right to express their opinions in a rule-abiding manner. Just because you don't care about his opinions on ZI/PZI doesn't mean that everyone in CN shares that view and, quite frankly, if you don't like it you can go piss up a rope.

I did say nobody cares did I. I meant to say "I don't care." oopsies.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Chief Savage Man

[EmperorDorkness]

Just so there's no confusion about things - or denials on his part...

here's screenies of both his loyalty oath to ML, and his very last post on our board (his resignation from the alliance. Notice there's not one word about being French in there (no offense to the few Frenchies out there who aren't surrender monkeys)

and sorry in advance to anyone stuck on dialup. These are full screen resolution...

Unfortunately even the strictest application process doesn't weed out all the weaksauce filled applicants. We do a pretty good job, and have had quite a few say 'sod it' during initial Q&A, and go looking for other alliances more suited to their ideals.

We make it VERY clear from the get go what we're about, what we expect from all of our members, and what the consequences are for those who violate our charter, their oath, and our ideals. We don't actively recruit people. We don't make grand promises to people to get them to join. We don't lie to our applicants. They know going in that if ML goes to war, you fight. ML does not subscribe to the INFRA > FRIENDS doctrine, and we all pledge the well-being of our nations to ML during war - even if it means getting ZI'd.

For those who would say I'm talking out my $@! - I HAVE been ZI'd in this war for ML. I have no more money, no more infra, and am currently in bill-lock. I fought right up to my last air craft, my last soldiers, last CM and last nuke. I' gladly accepted this - despite the fact that I personally was opposed to this war. When ML goes to war, ML goes to war. The only nations we have in hippie right now are the inactives, or people with RL issues that require their attention (like Atrocities and Sarris.) We all agree that the time to speak up is before or after the bombs and bullets start flying - not during the middle of a conflict.

And in response to those who believe that ML is going to be taking any sort of surrender terms that dictate how we, as an alliance can and will act, you are mistaken. You can ZI us. We will rebuild. You may ZI our rebuilt nations. We will rebuild. We will continue on until your will to attack us is gone. In the end the only thing lost is pixels and time.

For retardedfatkid - we will deprive him of the thing that he values most in this game - his pixels, and short of keeping him in hippie for the rest of his nation's existance, there is no alliance powerful enough on all of BOB to stop ML from executing his punishment, even if it means the destruction of the nations sent to destroy his. We don't have the same attachment to our pixels as he does. His loyalties lie in pixels, not with his alliance.

If KARMA believes they have the fortitude and ability to protect RFK for the rest of his existence on BOB, bring it on. If no one else is willing or able, I will rebuild my nation and hunt him to the ends of Bob, regardless of what alliance AA he flies, even if it means the ZI'ing of that nation. It's only pixels.

~ED - former Minister of War and Defense of MOLON LABE

[Kzoppistan]

^

Reading that makes me want to freak out and punch a donkey in the head. Or flip over a car. I can do that, y'know.

Powerful words, indeed.

[Emperor Khan]

So he actually posted a resignation thread and resigned?

What was all this rubbish about him being a traitor and a deserter then?

[Ragashingo]

And in response to those who believe that ML is going to be taking any sort of surrender terms that dictate how we, as an alliance can and will act, you are mistaken. You can ZI us. We will rebuild. You may ZI our rebuilt nations. We will rebuild. We will continue on until your will to attack us is gone. In the end the only thing lost is pixels and time.

As long as ML isn't threatening their former member with E/PZI then I don't have too big a problem with all of this. Trying to place some sort of term never allowing them attack a nation wouldn't be all that different from what the NPO did to ODN at the end of the Citrus War.

[EmperorDorkness]

So he actually posted a resignation thread and resigned?

What was all this rubbish about him being a traitor and a deserter then?

He left us in the middle of a declared war. This is a violation of our charter. Had he left before the war declaration was made, or after this war had ended, he would've been free to leave with no recourse. The only time ML takes action against a member that leaves is when they abandon us in a time of war. That's desertion. For it he will be punished.

[bzelger]

What's with the red faces?

[Jyrinx]

What's with the red faces?

^this. Seriously, why does ML care about this guy? He left. We get it. You're hurt. We get that too. He violated your charter. Understood. He's a coward and dishonorable. Alright. But... you know he's not coming back, right? What exactly is it that you want? Do you want to instigate a culture of fear in your alliance such that nobody ever attempts to defect while at war? That's about the only reason I can see for all of this posturing. Other than that, he's gone.

Seriously, just let him go. Your alliance is much better without him.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Jyrinx

[Emperor Khan]

He left us in the middle of a declared war. This is a violation of our charter. Had he left before the war declaration was made, or after this war had ended, he would've been free to leave with no recourse. The only time ML takes action against a member that leaves is when they abandon us in a time of war. That's desertion. For it he will be punished.

Yes, I see from his war screen that he peaced out of the three wars he was fighting. This is now between him and those he surrendered to. You can't accuse him of not fighting, you can't accuse him of running away, he fought and he resigned. Maybe you should be looking at why that happened rather than waving handbags around. As I said before, women bear grudges, not men.

[EmperorDorkness]

As long as ML isn't threatening their former member with E/PZI then I don't have too big a problem with all of this. Trying to place some sort of term never allowing them attack a nation wouldn't be all that different from what the NPO did to ODN at the end of the Citrus War.

The decision of an eternal/perma ZI is upto our elected government - and may be subject to change - but he will be ZI'd at least once for deserting us in a time of war. He took aid and comfort and enjoyed the protections of our alliance before the war, and had no qualms with it until he started getting a pounding. It was only after he found himself loosing money/tech/infra that he decided to make a stink.

pixels > friends = fail

We had a member leave ML a few days before the war started, he was a member of government. He didn't want to fight on the same side as NPO/Hegemony, because of an incident directly involving him. While none of us were happy to see him go - being an elected official - he did not abandon us in a time of war, and didn't just chicken out because he wanted to keep his pixels protected (he is, in fact fighting on the side of KARMA in this war, and doling out and taking as much damage as he can. For this he has my respect, as well as that of most of our brothers in ML, and is still welcome as a registered member of our forums).

ML does not arbitrarily brutalize anyone for simply leaving us. Our charter clearly states that a member may leave, without recourse, at any time they wish DURING PEACETIME. The only caveat with that is that if they have received aid from ML members within two weeks, we ask that they repay it. Leaving during a declared war, on the other hand, is desertion, and is one of the few things we take very seriously. We fight and die as a unit. All members - from our newest probationary members, to the founders of the alliance - make this same pledge. We don't ask a lot of our members, we give aid to them freely to grow their nations, we teach them how to maximize the growth of their nation, how to fight effective wars. We try to make every nation that joins us better.

Many people have come and gone - and almost all of them on peaceful terms. Those nations that have not left on peaceful terms found out quickly that abandoning ML to save their pixels resulted in far greater losses than staying and sticking out the fight would've incurred.

Regardless of KARMA's acceptance of this or not - this is ML's policy, it's how we roll, and we don't change who and what we are simply because the winds of fortune have changed their direction on us. You either like us or you don't. You agree with us or you don't. We're not going to contort ourselves to try and make friends with everyone. Our viewpoints, our core beliefs will not mesh with everyone else's. Honestly, that's not our problem. We don't seek to be the largest or most powerful alliance in this game. We don't seek to control Blocs, or spheres. Rather, we have purposefully remained a small, close-knit group, of like minded individuals who share common values and beliefs in real life, with CN just being another shared interest. We have purposefully chosen to keep our formal ties with other alliances few and far between - we have repetitively been asked to join one bloc or another, or to sign one treaty or another with other alliances. Most of the time our answer is short and to the point - "No, thanks."

Are we glad that RFK is gone? Yes - because if he doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to hang with us in the simple pixel-to-pixel warfare that is CN - he probably doesn't share the same values and beliefs that the rest of the alliance does IRL. Your words are your bond in this game. Straight up - RFK broke his bonds - he lied to us, took aid and comfort from us, then abandoned us when he started loosing his pixels. He's the only member of our alliance to complain or bemoan his lost pixels. The rest of us carry on, and we will rebuild. We do not seek anyone else's permission or approval to do so. If at the end of this conflict ML stands alone - then we will rebuild ourselves, without the aid of anyone else, and we will continue. That's who we are. That's what we're about. And we'll continue to play this game the same way we always have - regardless of what alliances love us, like us, respect us, or hate us. We're not going anywhere any time soon.

[Jyrinx]

Well, if that's your stance then that's your stance. We'll see how this entire thing plays out after the war I guess.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Jyrinx

[enderland]

Speaking of deserters it seems one has met his end

[Ragashingo]

Regardless of KARMA's acceptance of this or not - this is ML's policy, it's how we roll, and we don't change who and what we are simply because the winds of fortune have changed their direction on us. You either like us or you don't. You agree with us or you don't. We're not going to contort ourselves to try and make friends with everyone. Our viewpoints, our core beliefs will not mesh with everyone else's. Honestly, that's not our problem. We don't seek to be the largest or most powerful alliance in this game. We don't seek to control Blocs, or spheres. Rather, we have purposefully remained a small, close-knit group, of like minded individuals who share common values and beliefs in real life, with CN just being another shared interest. We have purposefully chosen to keep our formal ties with other alliances few and far between - we have repetitively been asked to join one bloc or another, or to sign one treaty or another with other alliances. Most of the time our answer is short and to the point - "No, thanks."

And this is why I have no problem with what you are doing unless it becomes a eternal war against a nation for a single (if grievous) trespass. You guys have been a blast to fight against and you seem to have a very strong culture. Nobody should force you to change your culture. I'm not saying I like the idea of your alliance chasing this guy after the war, because I don't, but I think it should be your choice to get caught up in some future war of your creation when you do go after him.

[zedland]

Hmmm..

I see nothing about suicideing my nation til ZI for something I think is stupid:

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Molon_Labe#Charter

I'll say it once,

Bad alliance leadership results in bad alliance membership.

[EmperorDorkness]

an aside to the topic at hand

I have had the pleasure of battling MK, STA, and NSO - and you guys have by far been the classiest bunch of opponents I've ever faced - and ya'll have a lot of respect within ML - both for the way you handle yourselves in-game and on our forums AND for how you guys fight. Maybe someday we can actually have the pleasure of fighting on the same side, although I'm sure it'd be quite entertaining to have a 2nd or 3rd boxing match.

Ya'll should see the war-ribbons you have inspired too :lol:

we now return you to your regularly scheduled banter...

[EmperorDorkness]

Hmmm..

I see nothing about suicideing my nation til ZI for something I think is stupid:

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Molon_Labe#Charter

I'll say it once,

Bad alliance leadership results in bad alliance membership.

Hm. Lets see - when 46 out of 47 nations in the alliance agree to put their nations on the line for ML, and 1 out of 47 runs like a coward, I'd hardly call it bad alliance leadership. You lied to us. You ran from battle like a coward. You knew exactly what you were getting in to when you applied to ML. Every applicant is asked in their membership Q&A thread if you are willing to risk ZI for ML. Applicants who answer "No" are rejected. We made our expectations clear from the get go. You betrayed your word to us. You knew the consequences. You surrendered faster than the French. You chose pixels over your alliance. Now we are simply going to remove as many of those pixels as we possibly can. Rots of ruck, chuck. There's only two ways you're going to escape getting ZI'd by ML - eternal hippie, or deleting your nation. As long as your nation exists, it has a big red target on it.

We will tighten our screening policy for new applicants though. We don't need another retarded fat kid in our alliance, one was too many.