An Open Letter to Archon and Karma at Large

[TruHartBrakN]

If they were preparing for a peaceful resolution why would they order nations into peace mode?

WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE OF AN ORDER INTO PEACE MODE?

[enderland]

WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE OF AN ORDER INTO PEACE MODE?

http://www.cybernations.net/allNations_dis...range%20Nations

http://www.cybernations.net/allNations_dis...ix%20Federation

http://www.cybernations.net/allNations_dis...liance=Valhalla

[Captain Flinders]

The "cosmic coincidence" nonsense is just absurd, how many members jumped into peace mode? 10? 20? That's about 2.5% of the whole alliance..

Enough for Karma to take note and tell Moo to accept or decline the terms. Other terms will likely be tabled and they only needed a yes or no from him. It was not the time to negotiate terms, as much as the NPO thought it was.

[TruHartBrakN]

Hi Tru. Long time, never see.

Hey buddy. Nice post, thanks for actually taking the time to analyze and debate the original post. I can see where you are coming from.. Well said.. However, I still believe that more patience and mercy could have been applied. Whether it should have been or deserved to have been is really another story. Thanks again for your thought-out post.

Kingsrqt, how's it going? I heard you started dating someone behind my back you little doo doo head you. Just the way Archon was speaking in those logs, its quite clear that he was savoring his moment of having NPO bow to him. If that's not clear to you, then perhaps I've just lost my mind..

Love you still though, come back to me. Although, I hear the ladies in Iceland are pretty darn lovely this time of year.

[Ejayrazz]

Enough for Karma to take note and tell Moo to accept or decline the terms. Other terms will likely be tabled and they only needed a yes or no from him. It was not the time to negotiate terms, as much as the NPO thought it was.

It wasn't the time to negotiate for anyone, even TORN at this point.

[Bleh32]

We should not make the mistake of letting history repeat itself... NPO should be given very harsh surrender terms, rather than the slap on the wrist after GWI.

[Defiant]

Do you think the NPO would/was working for peace? If they were in the power position, everyone knows, from history, no gentle or honorable peace would have been made. Do not allow the mistake that was GW1 happen again.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Defiant

[TruHartBrakN]

Enough for Karma to take note and tell Moo to accept or decline the terms. Other terms will likely be tabled and they only needed a yes or no from him. It was not the time to negotiate terms, as much as the NPO thought it was.

You're backtracking now. At first you said it was the whole alliance and made a cosmic coincidence joke. Now you're admitting that 2.5% of the an alliance is enough to call it a jump to peace-mode. Really, where do you stand?

The terms as stated were unfairly written and anyone with a hint of objective thought would have understood that. It was quite clear NPO attacked without a proper CB but they did not in anyway change the logs or pump up the evidence. That would have been a very fair term and it was quite clear the NPO was ready to accept it. When you are dealing with the fate of your entire (huge) alliance it does not behoove you to just accept a lie as the truth.

[TruHartBrakN]

Do you think the NPO would/was working for peace? If they were in the power position, everyone knows, from history, no gentle or honorable peace would have been made. Do not allow the mistake that was GW1 happen again.

I think the NPO was working for peace after they realized their error, yes. The rest of your post doesn't apply at all to my argument and can be dismissed. This is not about doing what NPO would have done, its about the way Archon and co. handled it. Do you understand? Why do you think I left NPO? Obviously, I felt there was something wrong and unmerciful about the way they went about their business. However, two wrongs do not make a right and I'm standing up for what I feel is right which is more than I can say for most of Bob's residents.

[TruHartBrakN]

http://www.cybernations.net/allNations_dis...range%20Nations

http://www.cybernations.net/allNations_dis...ix%20Federation

http://www.cybernations.net/allNations_dis...liance=Valhalla

Funny thing is none of those alliances are NPO... I guess Moo now controls three other large alliances as well... Oh wait, no they all canceled on him.

[Darvel]

NPO: We accept all the terms you've laid down so far.

Karma: You're preparing for peace!!!!!! We can't have that! These peace discussions are over!

Can't you see how silly you sound? If peace was reashable and it looked like it easily was then NPO nations being in Peace Mode after wouldn't have mattered one bit. Does anyone make that copnnection? You are all fools.

Pathetic. No honor at all.

Since when was going into peace mode a preparation for peace being declared?

Anyway, I'm not even sure NPO wanted to accept all terms whatever they might have been. They were stalls so they could prepare for war and hence were being conducted in bad faith. Rightly or wrongly, Archon extended peace terms, however draconian, and as a representative of an independent actor should have no obligations not to cancel the peace talks if he feels they are a sham.

[Captain Flinders]

At first you said it was the whole alliance and made a cosmic coincidence joke.

Yes, I was mocking the situation. Not giving an actual name or number to the amount in peace mode. Damn, you're hard to reason with.

Now you're admitting that 2.5% of the an alliance is enough to call it a jump to peace-mode.

Wrong. I said enough went into peace mode that Karma felt the need to attack. Whether that is 2.5% I don't know. But I'll let someone with more patience deal with you now. You're rambling, putting up strawmen, and not generally going anywhere or making much sense.

[Shafer]

Excuse me, but this is a ridiculous post. 2 days ago, ~110 people carrying the New Pacific Order AA in-game were in peace mode. Today, there are ~130. There are at any given time ~50+ ghosts of the New Pacific Order AA, something that can be found simply by looking at this for a few minutes. They're not hard to spot. Anyway, getting back to the actual point, 150+ people did not 'jump' into peace mode during talks, and I highly doubt we were ordering people into peace mode during them, because if we were, many more nations would be in peace mode.

He did not do "the damn right thing".

Well the top three pages of Pacifica's nations are in peace mode, the most powerful part, so the stalling gave them enough time to escape, obviously NPO has a lot of ghosts, but I would wager that none are in the top 30 nations.

[Cobalt]

Since when was going into peace mode a preparation for peace being declared?

Anyway, I'm not even sure NPO wanted to accept all terms whatever they might have been. They were stalls so they could prepare for war and hence were being conducted in bad faith. Rightly or wrongly, Archon extended peace terms, however draconian, and as a representative of an independent actor should have no obligations not to cancel the peace talks if he feels they are a sham.

Bingo. Everyone acts like terms were a requirement before this began... The long and short of it is; NPO Declared war on Ordo Verde, Ordo Verde's Allies responded.

In case everyone forgot, situations like this are exactly why you sign military treaties. You don't sign them so you can have a fun time jumping on other alliances when they mess up, you sign them so you will have help and protection when you are endangered by your own actions.

OV Screwed up, to an extent - NPO Declared war - OV's allies had the kindness to offer NPO a safe way out, that didn't go as smoothly as they'd hoped, so they went back to plan A :jihad:

[TruHartBrakN]

Yes, I was mocking the situation. Not giving an actual name or number to the amount in peace mode. Damn, you're hard to reason with.

Wrong. I said enough went into peace mode that Karma felt the need to attack. Whether that is 2.5% I don't know. But I'll let someone with more patience deal with you now. You're rambling, putting up strawmen, and not generally going anywhere or making much sense.

Ah yes, the cosmic coincidence mocking of the situation wasn't a strawman at all, now was it?

[Ogaden]

We should not make the mistake of letting history repeat itself... NPO should be given very harsh surrender terms, rather than the slap on the wrist after GWI.

Even if the order accepts such terms, I for one will not.

[TruHartBrakN]

Well the top three pages of Pacifica's nations are in peace mode, the most powerful part, so the stalling gave them enough time to escape, obviously NPO has a lot of ghosts, but I would wager that none are in the top 30 nations.

I'd be willing to wager that most of those top 30 were in peace mode before the OV conflict even began. That's sorta how NPO goes to war. Whether its a good thing or a bad thing is another story obviously.

[Dilber]

Well the top three pages of Pacifica's nations are in peace mode, the most powerful part, so the stalling gave them enough time to escape, obviously NPO has a lot of ghosts, but I would wager that none are in the top 30 nations.

I'm sure all of them went into peace mode during negotations, and that never had been any war plans going on before that. It was all a delaying tactic!

We didn't have anything to gain by "stalling".

[Paradigm]

You're backtracking now. At first you said it was the whole alliance and made a cosmic coincidence joke. Now you're admitting that 2.5% of the an alliance is enough to call it a jump to peace-mode. Really, where do you stand?

The terms as stated were unfairly written and anyone with a hint of objective thought would have understood that.

snip

When you are dealing with the fate of your entire (huge) alliance it does not behoove you to just accept a lie as the truth.

Spare me the false outrage - On both statements - Do we really need to pull up your posts from GWII and GWIII?

Come on - Just about every set of peace terms NPO has handed down they have made surrenders flat out lie posting statements that MUST be made as part of the terms. I dont even agree with this case being a lie, but the point stands none the less.

[SkonesMickLoud]

Even if the order accepts such terms, I for one will not.

So you would defy your emperor?

That's not a very good lapdog...

[TruHartBrakN]

Spare me the false outrage - On both statements - Do we really need to pull up your posts from GWII and GWIII?

Come on - Just about every set of peace terms NPO has handed down they have made surrenders flat out lie posting statements that MUST be made as part of the terms. I dont even agree with this case being a lie, but the point stands none the less.

I do not support harsh punishments laid down by any sides during a war.. Maybe I've just gotten old. You should consider reading this whole thread as I basically just said I don't even support it when *GASP* the NPO does it too.. Why do you think I joined TORN? And then NSO? There's a pattern of forgiveness and non-rep style warfare that I lean towards.

[TruHartBrakN]

So you would defy your emperor?

That's not a very good lapdog...

Look at the hurfing and the durfing goin on around here..

[Letum]

Karma intends to be very different from the NPO. However, the case needs to be made that the NPO should sweat a bit by their own tactics.

And how long will it be until "Karma" suddenly remembers that NPO didn't fight alone, and decides to make its former allies "sweat" as well by their "own tactics"? Until VE decides to get back at GGA for the Green Civil War, or MK decides that surrendering to VE, ML and Echelon in the Coalition War also needs vengeance, or remaining alliances from the Unjust war decide to strike back at those alliances still around that fought them?

And how long then, until they turn on each other and use the same "tactics" on each other, for the "tactics" they just used on these other alliances? You think this is absurd? Everyone seems to have forgotten Shark Week and Operation Overlord. Sponge's actions are rarely referenced. But the response to these events is used as justification for the conflicts of today.

How long till we come full circle?

NPO is focused upon now because it is number one, and it is convenient for everyone to claim that "NPO controlled everyone". Whichever way this ends, the world will be split into many groups, and with the NPO no longer tied to them all, this excuse will no longer be enough.

So stop hiding behind your veil of supposed absolute morality, and admit to yourself that this talk of "change" is a sham, and the true goal here is to weaken the Order as much as possible.

You can condemn us all you want, but at least we have never hid that we always acted in response to what might damage our sovereignty, without wrapping it up in some faux morality and stamping it with the word change.

[Sal Paradise]

It was obvious throughout that the NPO was stalling and had no intention of negotiating their surrender in good faith. Karma laid everything out for them and they knew what they were getting into. You may have noticed that at the very beginning of Moo's log dump (a EZIable offense under the ancien régime), OV's allies explicitly state that they were going to defend OV, that this wasn't about peace, but surrender and that the terms were non-negotiable. The NPO delegation should have known full well what this meant, and yet the quibbled and stalled. Their arrogance from having terrorized the world for 2 years blinded them to their position. I have no idea why you expect us to be a bunch of hippies and roll over like so many have done in the past and let the NPO get aware with their crimes. They were in the wrong, they were in the weakened position and contrition was theirs to show. Karma had simply ran out of patience, the NPO was escaping into peacemode (a tactic that would have improved their position) and that insolence forced us to play the hand we made them fully aware we were prepared to play.

[TruHartBrakN]

It was obvious throughout that the NPO was stalling and had no intention of negotiating their surrender in good faith. Karma laid everything out for them and they knew what they were getting into. You may have noticed that at the very beginning of Moo's log dump (a EZIable offense under the ancien régime), OV's allies explicitly state that they were going to defend OV, that this wasn't about peace, but surrender and that the terms were non-negotiable. The NPO delegation should have known full well what this meant, and yet the quibbled and stalled. Their arrogance from having terrorized the world for 2 years blinded them to their position. I have no idea why you expect us to be a bunch of hippies and roll over like so many have done in the past and let the NPO get aware with their crimes. They were in the wrong, they were in the weakened position and contrition was theirs to show. Karma had simply ran out of patience, the NPO was escaping into peacemode (a tactic that would have improved their position) and that insolence forced us to play the hand we made them fully aware we were prepared to play.

Well stated yet the terms should not have been non-negotiable and there should have been more patience applied. I never said you should roll over like hippies, but that you should provide fair terms. Having NPO admit to doctoring evidence is not a fair term and neither is rushing to get a negotiation finished because 10 or 20 nations decided to be cowards.