Bring the Boys Back Home

[Richard Rahl]

While I think driving rulers away from Planet Bob is wrong, I do remember the type of honor FAN showed its enemies, of which I was one, during GWIII. That doesn't mean I think they should be kept from the face of Bob entirely, after all people can change.

Trying to get FAN members back to stir up drama is laudable.

Trying to make FAN out to be this idyllic, honorable group of freedom fighters is laughable.

[Vladimir]

And you have been saying that for over half a year.

As has every other enemy of the Order since 2006. Sponge was well behind the times when he joined the end of the NAAC/ODN/ICSN/ICP/LUE/GPA/GATO/GOONS/etc line a year and a half ago. Illustrious company he found himself in though. Tell Chris Kaos I said hi.

[zigbigadorlou]

It would be nice if Pacifica and allies gave FAN peace for real and let them have another shot at functioning like a normal alliance, I think after holding together for this long they deserve that. If you guys let go of your grudge for FAN maybe they'll do the same for you, sometimes it works both ways like that, you don't need to be eternal enemies.

FAN is not really doing anything productive ATM. I think peace is the only way for them to contribute once again as they used to.

To start with keeping FAN down (or out of the game) showed people what would happen if they went up against NPO. Now it just shows how sad it is when people cant let go of their grudge.

Giving FAN a honorable white peace, and FAN accepting it as a gesture of goodwill, would show planet bob that honour and not just strength is still a part of the game!

^No. Honour is a useless means to the end of interestingness

I would love to see this happened.

The lack of activity from FAN members has made them forgotten, at least by me.

But, would love to see them back.

I do not think I will ever keep people forever down just because I can.

This is a game, and I do not think I am that afraid to have FAN grow to be a future challenge.

This ought to be encouraged.

[Triyun]

but but white peace...

I never said white peace, my point is that in order for us to agree to enter into peace negotiations, they first actually have to fight the war.

So what you want them to do is adopt a set of suicidal tactics that you decree they must, have them take a godawful pounding, and then expect them to be filled with enough goodwill that they will be able to convince you of their good intent? I am not sure what planet things like that actually happen on but its name isn't Bob. It's almost like you're intending on this war lasting forever.

Being one of the only people around here who sees anything close to the total picture, I think FAN is just about the least of your worries at this point. I warned you a year and a half ago. I hope you were paying attention.

Why Sponge, I had no idea you cared so much.

[Paradigm]

This ought to be encouraged.

Right - you would think the best and the brightest would want to face a real force for once....you know to experience a challenge and all. *shrug*

[uaciaut]

If they have a strategic mind and actually want to accomplish their goals (unless said goal is something silly like 'destroy the Order'), then they will indeed join the glorious utopia I call Rationality.

Are you reffering to the MDP cluster $%&@?

Speaking as the leader of the alliance that was first perceived as the reincarnation of the NPO's ancestral enemy, and then proceeded to nuke the hell out of them, yet still exist in freedom, there are other ways.

Different circumstances. FAN were let off the hook at one point though, it's just that NPO came back on that decision. Anyone i'm saying that although circumstances seem similar at first sight there are a lot of differences between the 2 cases.

[Neboe]

I’m not certain I follow the logic that there is honor in willingly allowing a threat to foster and grow? If I know that Sponge-boy wants to jump me and beat me up, so I swing first and beat the mess out of him. What would be my motivation for stopping to hold him down, knowing that as soon as I let up, he’ll get back up and start swinging his own punches?

The “brightest in the game” (which is debatable but off this topic) have gotten to their position of power and prominence by making certain they do not fight on an even footing. The tactical advantage has been engineered and is part of the reason they are hegemonic. It would be counterintuitive to reverse that course of action now.

This, of course, does not exhaust the entire gamut of reasons for FAN to be granted peace, but to insist the NPO grant FAN the opportunity to build a true threat to the current hegemony is specious to the prevailing political logic.

[Paradigm]

Neboe,

I do aplogize if my often cynically laced words are not expressed in a manner that is obvious to my true meaning. I will try to address this in the rest of this series I have planned over the next weeks.

Cheers,

Para

[Triyun]

Right - you would think the best and the brightest would want to face a real force for once....you know to experience a challenge and all. *shrug*

War is politics by other means. Diplomacy and political dealings are just as important to an alliance as war is. Too ask someone to abandon this battlefield is equally as foolish as too ask them to give up on improving themselves on the military battlefield.

[Vilien]

As has every other enemy of the Order since 2006. Sponge was well behind the times when he joined the end of the NAAC/ODN/ICSN/ICP/LUE/GPA/GATO/GOONS/etc line a year and a half ago. Illustrious company he found himself in though. Tell Chris Kaos I said hi.

Really, pat yourself on the back. Congratu-!@#$@#$-lations on destroying so many alliances. I know it's been tough work. It's good to see that you've used NAAC, LUE, and GATO as examples of dishonorable conduct, considering the long line of transgressions on your part.

Keeping FAN under your boot only shows the rest of us how completely weak and insecure you are. It's pathetic. We're all stunned by how you've managed, as the largest alliance in the game, to continue to fight against a bunch of nations in peace mode. Bravo.

[Vladimir]

The point was that everyone who finds themselves opposed to the Order says exactly what Electron Sponge said. They all claimed to have an amazing insight too (though admittedly not as comically as Electron Sponge does with his "total picture").

[Timitz]

It takes two sides for peace, but only one for war.

If FAN wanted peace they would pursue it more actively. I can't personally object to the NPO's position here. It doesn't seem like FAN wants to stop fighting any time soon. Hasn't the NPO already told them the terms for peace? If the answers to these questions are yes, and the terms aren't unreasonable, then they have done all they rationally can.

Edit* Spelling

Edited March 31, 2009 by Timitz

[Vilien]

The point was that everyone who finds themselves opposed to the Order says exactly what Electron Sponge said. They all claimed to have an amazing insight too (though admittedly not as comically as Electron Sponge does with his "total picture").

Reductio ad Sponge is an interesting addition to the list of logical fallacies you use. Address the argument.

[Vladimir]

The argument that 'Sponge knows! You're doomed!'? The argument he just said he has been using for a year and a half? I suppose if he waits about for eternity it might eventually happen and he can claim 'Sponge knew!', but until then my life will go on unaltered by the revelation.

[Haflinger]

2) Why are all the people commenting on NPO coming from 'small alliances' or 'former enemies'? I don't see me fitting in either of those profiles.

iFok is a small alliance. (I should think. Otherwise there are one heck of a lot of large alliances. 62 nations and 750K... welll... )

[Vilien]

The argument that 'Sponge knows! You're doomed!'? The argument he just said he has been using for a year and a half? I suppose if he waits about for eternity it might eventually happen and he can claim 'Sponge knew!', but until then my life will go on unaltered by the revelation.

I apologize, I was referring to this argument:

Keeping FAN under your boot only shows the rest of us how completely weak and insecure you are. It's pathetic. We're all stunned by how you've managed, as the largest alliance in the game, to continue to fight against a bunch of nations in peace mode. Bravo.

I'm looking for a collectible genuine-Vladimir response to this one.

[Arcades057]

The argument that 'Sponge knows! You're doomed!'? The argument he just said he has been using for a year and a half? I suppose if he waits about for eternity it might eventually happen and he can claim 'Sponge knew!', but until then my life will go on unaltered by the revelation.

The more he says "wait and see!" the more chances he has to be right. Sponge is the John Edwards--the ghost-talker guy--of Bob.

[Richard Rahl]

Really, pat yourself on the back. Congratu-!@#$@#$-lations on destroying so many alliances. I know it's been tough work. It's good to see that you've used NAAC, LUE, and GATO as examples of dishonorable conduct, considering the long line of transgressions on your part.

Keeping FAN under your boot only shows the rest of us how completely weak and insecure you are. It's pathetic. We're all stunned by how you've managed, as the largest alliance in the game, to continue to fight against a bunch of nations in peace mode. Bravo.

The NPO are weak, insecure because they've defeated their enemies? And they are pathetic because they keep people who hate them from ever being able to become a threat?

I can understand if you are against them trying to drive others of the planet, that's understandable. But calling them weak, insecure, or pathetic for doing what they need to to stay in power is ridiculous. If the tables had been turned and NPO would have lost, and their detractors were in power, the same thing would be going on. Those detractors would be chasing the NPO off the planet.

e; ic stuff

Edited March 31, 2009 by Richard Rahl

[Vilien]

The NPO are weak, insecure because they've defeated their enemies? And they are pathetic because they keep people who hate them from ever being able to become a threat?

I can understand if you are against them trying to drive others of the planet, that's understandable. But calling them weak, insecure, or pathetic for doing what they need to to stay in power is ridiculous. If the tables had been turned and NPO would have lost, and their detractors were in power, the same thing would be going on. Those detractors would be chasing the NPO off the planet.

e; ic stuff

They haven't just dealt with the directly belligerent or those who attack them. They've actively viewed any alliance that grows and isn't directly tied to them as a threat, and so far, those alliances have been destroyed. They've been driven out of the game for the crime of existing. If Pacifica needs to keep FAN in a state of war in order to stay in power, then they are indeed weaker than they seem.

[Vladimir]

I have answered that a number of times in the thread already, Vilien. Go for a quick hunt back and you will quickly find one. I also answered the mistaken conclusions you drew from your mistaken premise. Go for a quick hunt back ad you will quickly find those as well. Gotta catch them all!

[uaciaut]

The “brightest in the game” (which is debatable but off this topic) have gotten to their position of power and prominence by making certain they do not fight on an even footing. The tactical advantage has been engineered and is part of the reason they are hegemonic. It would be counterintuitive to reverse that course of action now.

This, of course, does not exhaust the entire gamut of reasons for FAN to be granted peace, but to insist the NPO grant FAN the opportunity to build a true threat to the current hegemony is specious to the prevailing political logic.

Neboe - it's not the ones you speak of i blame as much as everyone who makes them stay where they are instead of trying to put themselves in better positions.

If more people actually tried to play the game this would have actually happened. As it is now it's like a game of chess where neither of the players are playing because that way one may lose (you can go further on this and say one the players has a reputation for winning pretty often and giving his opponents wedgies after).

If people wouldn't have been satisfied with some fake sentiments of safety where they have to pretty much permanently show a bright !@#$ eating grin all the time at everyone else and speaking your mind could be seen as REALLY dangerous.

Were the CN political situation more dynamical, FAN may have been out of war by now instead of being kept under p-zi for potential permanent bearers of a grudge.

[MTTezla]

Look at those Nifty little Free FAN sigs...But I like my brainy sig!!!

Don't you even think about it!

[Vilien]

I have answered that a number of times in the thread already, Vilien. Go for a quick hunt back and you will quickly find one. I also answered the mistaken conclusions you drew from your mistaken premise. Go for a quick hunt back ad you will quickly find those as well. Gotta catch them all!

Ah, yes, I must have missed the very argument that I refuted.

So, by your standards, it is acceptable to deal with any perceived threat, or past threat, with overwhelming force. If NAAC reformed, would you fight an eternal war with us? We once fought you in the past, clearly it would be our goal to dethrone you. Would you be justified in holding Polaris in eternal-ZI because they once fought against you? They could become a threat; surely you are justified in doing everything you can to crush the life out of them. And thus, you are surely justified in crushing the life out of anyone who threatens you, anyone who you perceive as a threat, or anyone who you consider to not be aligned enough with your warped concepts of the common good.

Grow some honor; maybe there's a reason so many have tried to bring you down.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Vilien

[Vladimir]

Ah, yes, I must have missed the very argument that I refuted.

So, by your standards, it is acceptable to deal with any perceived threat, or past threat, with overwhelming force. If NAAC reformed, would you fight an eternal war with us? We once fought you in the past, clearly it would be our goal to dethrone you. Would you be justified in holding Polaris in eternal-ZI because they once fought against you? They could become a threat; surely you are justified in doing everything you can to crush the life out of them. And thus, you are surely justified in crushing the life out of anyone who threatens you, anyone who you perceive as a threat, or anyone who you consider to not be aligned enough with your warped concepts of the common good.

Grow some honor; maybe there's a reason so many have tried to bring you down.

Your point wasn't as original as you think. It had already been made, addressed and abandoned.

If you will note Archon's post earlier, this simply isn't the way we operate. Fighting us once in the past doesn't make you a threat now, or we'd never declare peace with any alliance. Indeed, many of our members were once enemies of the Order, including our last three Emperors. I'm not sure how we would deal with a past threat with overwhelming force, since by definition it no longer exists -- sounds like it has already been amply dealt with! Once again you mistake 'maintaining our security' with 'shooting anything that moves'. On the face of it shooting anything that moves would seem to be the perfect security, but ultimately it is self-defeating, since you have limited resources that could be focussed on real threats rather than chasing shadows.

If NAAC reformed and sought our destruction, then they would have set themselves on a collision course and the chances are that we would eventually come to blows. If they reformed and didn't overtly take this stance, then it would come down to an evaluation of the genuine intentions of the group, just as has occurred all throughout history with many different Order-unrelated groups.

And rest easy that we don't attack those who oppose our "warped sense of the common good" (unless the 'common good' is 'security of the Order') because we don't believe in cramming our morality down the throat of the international community. A lesson that you could do with learning -- that's the real tyranny here.

[Vilien]

Your point wasn't as original as you think. It had already been made, addressed and abandoned.

If you will note Archon's post earlier, this simply isn't the way we operate. Fighting us once in the past doesn't make you a threat now, or we'd never declare peace with any alliance. Indeed, many of our members were once enemies of the Order, including our last three Emperors. I'm not sure how we would deal with a past threat with overwhelming force, since by definition it no longer exists -- sounds like it has already been amply dealt with! Once again you mistake 'maintaining our security' with 'shooting anything that moves'. On the face of it shooting anything that moves would seem to be the perfect security, but ultimately it is self-defeating, since you have limited resources that could be focussed on real threats rather than chasing shadows.

If NAAC reformed and sought our destruction, then they would have set themselves on a collision course and the chances are that we would eventually come to blows. If they reformed and didn't overtly take this stance, then it would come down to an evaluation of the genuine intentions of the group, just as has occurred all throughout history with many different Order-unrelated groups.

And rest easy that we don't attack those who oppose our "warped sense of the common good" (unless the 'common good' is 'security of the Order') because we don't believe in cramming our morality down the throat of the international community. A lesson that you could do with learning -- that's the real tyranny here.

Explain how FAN is a real threat. You've had numerous members post in this thread about how much of a joke FAN is. I've seen numerous FAN posters say that they're willing to accept peace. And I see no reason why they still don't have it, other than a grudge that you acted on a long time ago.

I also heard that quoting your own essays does not automatically validate your argument.

EDIT: Grammar, rhyming.

Edited March 31, 2009 by Vilien