[CNRP]Vaule calls a RUSSIAN pact Summit in Sygh-Varthys

[Justinian the Mighty]

We can't trust anyone to "endeavor to" do anything. We saw during the last war that the nations allied to nuclear offenders can and will be nuked along with their allies, regardless of their own nuclear status. We should "pledge" to not use weapons of mass destruction, and "endeavor" to eradicate nuclear warfare altogether.

[mykep]

OOC: And one day, Canada will be RUSSIAN, too, or wut?

lol

OOC: why not? lol

IC:

Nuclear warfare is part of the modern times, and the ones with the biggest guns has the power. RUSSIAN should not limit its power, so we will not sign either proposal.

Also, nuclear warhead use is a nation's right. This treaty stated it would not breach the FA/IA line. I understand that you may not want to defend a comrade if they use such weapons, but we are brothers..and defend we will.

[Imperator Azenquor]

OOC: @Mykep: Is that a no to both then?

"Vaule understands the need for responsible use of the weapons at the disposal of RUSSIAN member states however we feel that a RUSSIAN policy dictating how Vaule's chemical and nuclear weaponry can and can not be used is a violation of our sovereignty. While Vaule currently maintains a policy of no nuclear first strikes and conventional forces first, we feel that our nuclear policy should be determined by our own government and not by the RUSSIAN pact. We reserve the right to change our own internal policy regarding these weapons as we see fit.

As we have stated before, we believe that the Defense and Optional Aggression clauses deal effectively with the matter under debate. Should a RUSSIAN nation be hit with a nuclear weapon, then we will take an appropriate response in line with the Mutual Defense clause, should a RUSSIAN nation use Nuclear weapons in a first strike as an act of aggression, then all RUSSIAN nations reserve the right not to render assistance to that nation. Should a RUSSIAN nation be hit with a nuclear weapon after another RUSSIAN nation has used a nuclear weapon in a first strike scenario then that will activate the Defense portion of the pact.

Regarding the Slavorussian representative suggesting that he does not 'trust' anyone to 'endeavor' to not use nuclear weapons, we ask then why do you 'trust' those same people to not use them?"

[mykep]

OOC: Yes, no to both.

"Vaule understands the need for responsible use of the weapons at the disposal of RUSSIAN member states however we feel that a RUSSIAN policy dictating how Vaule's chemical and nuclear weaponry can and can not be used is a violation of our sovereignty. While Vaule currently maintains a policy of no nuclear first strikes and conventional forces first, we feel that our nuclear policy should be determined by our own government and not by the RUSSIAN pact. We reserve the right to change our own internal policy regarding these weapons as we see fit.

As we have stated before, we believe that the Defense and Optional Aggression clauses deal effectively with the matter under debate. Should a RUSSIAN nation be hit with a nuclear weapon, then we will take an appropriate response in line with the Mutual Defense clause, should a RUSSIAN nation use Nuclear weapons in a first strike as an act of aggression, then all RUSSIAN nations reserve the right not to render assistance to that nation. Should a RUSSIAN nation be hit with a nuclear weapon after another RUSSIAN nation has used a nuclear weapon in a first strike scenario then that will activate the Defense portion of the pact.

This is exactly how we feel. We do not want RUSSIAN dictating how we handle our affairs.

[Justinian the Mighty]

"A pledge supported by a treaty like this one ensures that nations will act responsibly. Many countries around the world have chosen to adopt a no first strike policy. They realize nuclear warfare has no place in modern warfare, unless your aim is to completely eradicate the human race. More importantly there is no logical need to use these kind of weapons when you have the most powerful nations in the world organized into the most powerful bloc in on the planet pledging their undying support in the defense of each other."

[Justinian the Mighty]

If you were all so against having your sovereignty imposed on in the first place then why would you have signed the treaty in the first place? The original article 7 forbade the use of nuclear weapons and called for the decommission of all nuclear arsenals. We further imposed on national sovereignty when we adopted a standard currency. If anything this is a reasonable step up from where we were before.

It’s not as though it would dictate if individual nations can use their nuclear arsenals without the approval of the AC. Simply asking for RUSSIAN nations to pledge not to use them first. If you detect a nuclear launch coming towards your country then by all means launch a full counterstrike, we would expect nothing less.

Showing the world you can act responsibly and promising to do what is right is the first step towards a world without war. Otherwise all we have is a gallery of barbaric warlords doing everything within their power to destroy every trace of life on the planet.

[Imperator Azenquor]

We did not all adopt a standard currency. Nations were given an option, they could choose the standard currency, choose a dual use system, or not use it at all. There is a difference between saying that you are treaty bound to come to the defense of your ally, and saying that you may not use this particular weapon (i.e. a WMD) in a first strike scenario.

What is next? You can't use this type of artillery shell because it can kill too many people? You can't use White Phosphorus because it can cause harm? Vaule, like every other member here is deeply committed to the RUSSIAN pact, however we maintain that having the RUSSIAN pact declare which types of weapons may or may not be used under certain scenarios would be deeply worrying.

As for the original RUSSIAN pact treaty, realities have changed significantly since it's inception, that is why we have brought up amending the charter.

This 'world without war' theory is absolutely unfeasible. Just because people agree not to use nuclear weaponry in a first strike scenario is no guarantee to peace. They will simply develop bigger and better conventional explosives. We understand Slavorussia's position, but we intend to ensure that how Vaule's nuclear and chemical weapons are used is determined not by a RUSSIAN summit, but by our Parliament, our President and our Imperatrix. To suggest that without such an agreement that my government could not be 'trusted' to act responsibly would be a serious insult.

[Sumeragi]

Altin Urda votes for Proposal #1.

[mykep]

What the Vaule representative said.

OOC: You're on the ball dude.

[Justinian the Mighty]

"Do whatever you want then, but that kind of thinking is hardly productive to prolonged peace. For the record our policy is not to help any country that starts nuclear, chemical or biological war, aggressive or otherwise and that same policy applies here. If any RUSSIAN country fires the first strike, even in their own defense you can rest assured we will not defend you."

Ambassador Ushakov stands up and leaves the room.

[Imperator Azenquor]

"Do whatever you want then, but that kind of thinking is hardly productive to prolonged peace. For the record our policy is not to help any country that starts nuclear, chemical or biological war, aggressive or otherwise and that same policy applies here. If any RUSSIAN country fires the first strike, even in their own defense you can rest assured we will not defend you."

Ambassador Ushakov stands up and leaves the room.

As the Slavorussian Ambassador leaves, the Vaulian representative says: "Of course you aren't expected to defend someone if they launch a first strike. That is the very essence of what I have been saying over and over and over again. Should a RUSSIAN nation launch a first strike of a WMD then no other RUSSIAN member is obligated to come to their assistance unless they decide to do so of their own accord. However should a RUSSIAN pact nation be attacked, other RUSSIAN pact nations are required to come to their assistance, that is the nature of an MDP.

The purpose of this summit is to debate changes to better the RUSSIAN pact and to ensure collective security. Let us continue."

Vaule tables a new motion before the summit, as we realized that the last motion did not take into account certain options:

Proposal #1

Article Seven: Weapons of Mass Destruction

To prevent lose of life on a widespread scale, signatories should endeavor to not use weapons of mass destruction, unless first attacked by an enemy with weapons of mass destruction. All Signatories should alert all RUSSIAN participants in the event of the use of one within their borders.

A weapon of mass destruction is defined as a device which utilizes a nuclear, biological or chemical weapon, which has the potential to cause massive civilian casualties. (White Phosphorus and similar weaponry do not constitute WMDs when used responsibly)

Proposal #2:

Article Seven: Weapons of Mass Destruction

To prevent lose of life on a widespread scale, signatories pledge not to use weapons of mass destruction, unless first attacked by an enemy with weapons of mass destruction. All Signatories should alert all RUSSIAN participants in the event of the use of one within their borders.

Other proposal (present a draft text):

Neither proposal (i.e. strike Article 7 from the charter):

"We ask the RUSSIAN members to vote on this motion, and we will send a message to the Slavorussian delegation informing them of the vote since they have decided to withdraw their Ambassador. I yield the floor."-Vaule Rep.

[Centurius]

I vote for the last proposal we should not be limited with this by treaty

[Imperator Azenquor]

I vote for the last proposal we should not be limited with this by treaty

OOC: Numerically (i.e. Proposal #2) or the same one you voted for last time (#1). Forgive me but I'm a tiny bit confused.

Proposal #1: 0

Proposal #2: 0

Other Proposal: 1

Strike Article 7: 3

Abstain: 0

Yet to vote: Tyranar, Crimea Iso, Slavorussia, Northern Empire, Rossiskaya, Altin Urda, Vaule

After voting on this motion is completed, we will then vote on the Altin Urda proposal to expand the definition of RUSSIAN. Then we will determine the specifics of the RUSSIAN presidency, then open the floor to any other topics.

Edited March 29, 2009 by Imperator Azenquor

[Centurius]

OOC: Numerically (i.e. Proposal #2) or the same one you voted for last time (#1). Forgive me but I'm a tiny bit confused.

Proposal #1: 0

Proposal #2: 0

Other Proposal: 0

Strike Article 7: 0

OOC: Striking of Article 7

[Sumeragi]

"Strike Artivle 7. It goes against common sense when the rest of the world are building up."

The representative whispers something to the Vaule representative.

"We're not entirely prepared to help Slavorussia if they're attacked, given their historically opportunistic behavior. What is your opinion?"

[mykep]

"Strike Artivle 7. It goes against common sense when the rest of the world are building up."

The representative whispers something to the Vaule representative.

"We're not entirely prepared to help Slavorussia if they're attacked, given their historically opportunistic behavior. What is your opinion?"

To both of you, you are Russian brothers and because of that you will defend each other if the other is attacked. If you aren't up to that...then why are you here?

[Centurius]

To both of you, you are Russian brothers and because of that you will defend each other if the other is attacked. If you aren't up to that...then why are you here?

OOC: I think we aren't supposed to hear that as it was whispering

[Centurius]

"I would like to bring recent developments in Europe to attention and suggest a rapid passing of this bill due to the threat that is above us, if our fears are true Slavorussia might come under attack by Nuclear Powers. RUSSIAN needs to prepare for war"

[Imperator Azenquor]

"Strike Artivle 7. It goes against common sense when the rest of the world are building up."

The representative whispers something to the Vaule representative.

"We're not entirely prepared to help Slavorussia if they're attacked, given their historically opportunistic behavior. What is your opinion?"

Vaule's Representative whispers a reply in Mongolian : "Despite the fact that we are in the process of rebuilding after a brutal civil war, we understand our obligations to assist our ally in the event that a war is declared against him. Our assistance, should it be necessary will be given upon request. We fully intend to provide Slavorussia with as much assistance as they provided us with in the past. "

"I would like to bring recent developments in Europe to attention and suggest a rapid passing of this bill due to the threat that is above us, if our fears are true Slavorussia might come under attack by Nuclear Powers. RUSSIAN needs to prepare for war"

"We are aware of the happenings in Europe, however if war breaks out, the amendments already enacted to the treaty address any situations that may arise. The final amendments are the Article 7, and the discussion of how the rotating Presidency will be determined. These amendments do not need to be rushed, and may be halted should war break out."

[Centurius]

Vaule's Representative whispers a reply in Mongolian : "Despite the fact that we are in the process of rebuilding after a brutal civil war, we understand our obligations to assist our ally in the event that a war is declared against him. Our assistance, should it be necessary will be given upon request. We fully intend to provide Slavorussia with as much assistance as they provided us with in the past. "

"We are aware of the happenings in Europe, however if war breaks out, the amendments already enacted to the treaty address any situations that may arise. The final amendments are the Article 7, and the discussion of how the rotating Presidency will be determined. These amendments do not need to be rushed, and may be halted should war break out."

"You are mistaking, we are dealing with powers who have Nuked on a first strike basis before without permission to build them we will only have our Missile Defenses this will not suffice"

[Imperator Azenquor]

"While the RUSSIAN treaty was active, very few amendments were made to the actual treaty. In practice RUSSIAN never actually enforced Article 7. That is why it was brought up for review now."

[Justinian the Mighty]

ooc: I'll be using Deputy PM Belyakov for the rest of the meeting.

ic: “For whatever reason the CSSR is amassing a large number of soldiers and military equipment on our border. We are waiting for word from the CSSR‘s government, but so far they have not responded to our inquiries. Their actions lead us to believe RUSSIAN nations should probably prepare for war.”

[Centurius]

"We have already mobilized all forces as stated before we will have your back."

[Justinian the Mighty]

"The CSSR has reported that they are performing military exercises in the region. We requested that they do this someplace not so close to our border. Only time will tell if we are being told the truth or not."

[Imperator Azenquor]

RUSSIAN members who have not yet recorded their votes on the Article Seven Amendment are asked to do so (OOC: voting will remain open until tomorrow)

"Regarding the military exercises being conducted in the CSSR, as long as their forces remain on their own territory, then there is no issue. We will continue to monitor the situation."