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Rebel Army-Kingdom of Cochin War


Voodoo Nova

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I would say, claiming that I tainted a ruling and implying that I was deceptive Kankou, is in fact an attack dog and hostile thing to say. How about trying something like, "In my post I asked if he posted ICly after you contacted the mod, and you said he had. Why is there a discrepancy here?" Instead you accused me of tainting the ruling, simply because you weren't clear in exactly what you were asking, and I answered to the best of my knowledge on what you were saying.

I would go further and say that I do feel that anyone going to 5000, would probably be pushing the upper limit. I have more infra than he, I think it'd be pushing my upper limit. Common sense has an absolute limit for everyone when it comes to weapons. I would say, if the largest SRBM producer in the world currently has 1600ish of these weapons and has been also stockpiling for decades, 5000 for someone whose been building up for decades is the upper bounds of common sense. I do not think that is a particularly controversial thing to say. Both the IRL PRC and Cochin are major economic powers, who have invested heavily in ballistic missiles. We still have him over 3 times their maximum capacity. We put an upper limit because he's one of the largest nations. We chose a ceiling that we felt that was very high for a nation that is both over 10, 000 infrastructure and has RPed a build up for a long time and would be a balance of fairness between the tens of thousands numbers Cochin had in mind (see conversation above) and what Cent and I thought was reasonable.

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[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323791506' post='2876586']
I would say, claiming that I tainted a ruling and implying that I was deceptive Kankou, is in fact an attack dog and hostile thing to say. How about trying something like, "In my post I asked if he posted ICly after you contacted the mod, and you said he had. Why is there a discrepancy here?" Instead you accused me of tainting the ruling, simply because you weren't clear in exactly what you were asking, and I answered to the best of my knowledge on what you were saying.[/quote]
I think you would have by now known how I talk, my dear Triyun. I am sad :(


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323791506' post='2876586']I would go further and say that I do feel that anyone going to 5000, would probably be pushing the upper limit. I have more infra than he, I think it'd be pushing my upper limit. Common sense has an absolute limit for everyone when it comes to weapons. I would say, if the largest SRBM producer in the world currently has 1600ish of these weapons and has been also stockpiling for decades, 5000 for someone whose been building up for decades is the upper bounds of common sense. I do not think that is a particularly controversial thing to say. Both the IRL PRC and Cochin are major economic powers, who have invested heavily in ballistic missiles. We still have him over 3 times their maximum capacity. We put an upper limit because he's one of the largest nations. We chose a ceiling that we felt that was very high for a nation that is both over 10, 000 infrastructure and has RPed a build up for a long time and would be a balance of fairness between the tens of thousands numbers Cochin had in mind (see conversation above) and what Cent and I thought was reasonable.[/quote]
Again, what did that have to do with Cochin not responding?

In addition, the main problem I see is the disregard of procedure where after some (obviously) informal discussion on the numbers of missiles, you and Cent proceeded to choose a number and pass it through without any correspondence with Cochin on the specific number. If Cochin had been notified of the number and either agreed or refused, and then you went for a majority rule by talking with the mods, then I would have seen no problem.


It's all about timing, Triyun. Frankly, many of your proposals came out at convenient times, and that really doesn't help with your credibility. Now, if you've been constantly pushing for missiles caps, and the proper procedure had been followed, then I wouldn't even be taking the (to your standards) hardline stance I am taking right now. Heck, I'll probably be supporting you all the way through to bed.

Edited by Kankou
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[quote name='Justinian the Mighty' timestamp='1323790862' post='2876564']
Cochin I need you te respond to my short, and rather easy to respond to attack. Thanks.
[/quote]

Will definitely respond either today or tomorrow. Had too much things going on RL to really respond a lot in the past few days, :)

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[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323787988' post='2876517']
First of all, to accuse me of impersonating a mod is silly because it is a bannable offense and easily disproven. If I claimed to rule for a mod, and didn't tell them anyone could report me and I'd be banned from the boards. Before throwing something like that out Cochin check your facts.
[/quote]

Perhaps if you read my post in a bit more detail you would realize that I am not accusing of you of any impersonation, I was just asking for proof that the mods did in fact say what you attribute them to having said especially as this is not exactly a trivial matter. As about checking my facts, that is exactly what I asked you to, to provide the facts.


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323787988' post='2876517']
You did stop your PMs with me, and you did stop talking on this board to Lavo, Cent, and Malatose at all. At the same time you did continue to post IC attacks.
[/quote]

Has it ever occurred to you that I was not responding here because I was pre-occupied elsewhere? As regards what Malatose and Lavo had asked me, it was more or less repeat of earlier questions raised which I had already answered. And yes, did not the fact of me continuing to post IC responses a definitive proof that was I was in fact complying with the restrictions you made me aware earlier?


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323787988' post='2876517']
As for why guidance on SRBMs are necessary, you could have simply responded to the PM and asked, but their guidance has different countermeasures taken against each.
[/quote]

Forgive me for not having RPd out the guidance systems of each and every weapon system I have. I was too baffled that you even asked such a question to bother replying. I simply felt you were nitpicking without reason.


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323787988' post='2876517']

You have hardly been 'nothing but cooperative' Cochin. You have consistently made charges that we [b]'just want you to give up'[/b] and others which come off as extraordinarily arrogant, misrepresentations, and like you are not at all interested in actually doing anything other [b]than get 100 percent your way[/b]. You cannot have it both ways. When we see you not respond at all, despite these things being out here for weeks and then respond IC, yes people do get very frustrated.

[/quote]
Seriously what? Please do educate me on where you pulled the first and second of the bolded portions out of? I am in a war which I know I will not escape unscathed and which is definitely the last stroke for my long time RPd nation and I have ensured that I will not spoil the fun of it by baawing about it. And you accuse me of what?

I simply stated that I am willing to prolong this warfare, I only stated that I intend to extend this war RP for a very long time, to make it an attrition warfare that would make Stalingrad look like a walk in the park. The only time where I have objected is to your excessive need for a victory to the first mass attack itself. And if you did care to read my replied you would see that I have in fact conceded far greater losses to second strikes which are intelligently laid out.

So yeah, get off that high horse.


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323787988' post='2876517']


That is a bit deceptive there of you. I threw out 20, 000 as a complete exaggeration, and you quite clearly didn't see it as anything approaching that. You went to 10, 000 at which point I was meh whatever and was going to talk to you about it another day you stopped responding in general. But in the context I think its pretty clear I used the 20k number as what we [i]shouldn't[/i] have, thinking that nobody would go anywhere near that, and then you seemed to quite clearly be envisioning as that not being anything like a cap. After this you simply flat out stopped responding to me, and still had not responded to Cent or Lavo at all. I read this conversation as 20k and 10k which I considered exaggerated numbers, to you were completely serious ones.

Again after this you simply stopped responding to [i]all[/i] OOC up until now.
[/quote]

You said 20,000 I said I am ready to go down. Then I guess you said 10,000 total BMs and 10,000 CMs and again I agreed to limit myself to. Did you PM me about a further reduction of numbers? NO. If you had, I would have agreed to reduce my numbers even less so long as everyone else complies!! But it was in fact you who was vague about my question of rate of regeneration of these missiles!!

I wont deny that I was seriously considering using thousands of missiles. Some of my defensive strategies were in fact based on having lots of missiles. But I found reason in Triyun's arguments on limiting these numbers and had agreed to reduce it too!! I am even now willing to reduce my missile numbers but you could have asked me!

I did not have all the time until today evening to go through all the posts, and I cannot only access PM alerts while on the move. If you think I am deliberately ignoring you, well it is your misunderstanding.


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323787988' post='2876517']



SPS again I expressed my disagreement with such a system.
[/quote]

SPS is not far fetched. Solar Power Satellites are really viable. And really where did you get the idea that my entire AADN is powered by SPS? If you had actually cared to read you would have found that SPS is just a backup power support for balloon radars which primarily use batteries and are anyway only expendable systems designed to fill a gap for a few hours until fresh satellites are launched!!


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323787988' post='2876517']


All you would say was that you've been RPing them. Thus you should get it. Just because nobody noticed it doesn't mean your not bound by some rules.

I would also point out that in all of this Cochin is playing a sort of feint here. He has in fact been for [i]much[/i] smaller missile caps in the past. In fact he was for a 1000-2000 missile cap on China when I invaded Keshav.

[/quote]
Several years ago and my missile production increased only after your own friends started massive stockpiling. After all it makes no sense to me to limit myself when my hostile neighbors are stockpiling massive weapon stores by my borders!! As a paranoid nation I would only match them and raise the numbers myself in the true spirit of arms race!

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[quote][b]Now perhaps[/b] mods may in fact have ruled in the manner as said, but I would prefer to see a mod posting it themselves before I comply. [b]I frankly do not trust the two other lofty GMs[/b] who have been railing these accusations at me when I have always been cooperative when cooperated with. At least for the semblance of fairness you two should have contacted me at least via PM before railroading like this.[/quote]

Why use [i]these[/i] words, if you weren't casting aspertions on our truthfulness. It makes no sense. In the context of this paragraph the only thing we could not be truthful about was that a mod said something to us. Therefore the only logical thing for Cent or I to think was that you'd actually think we'd make what a mod says up.

[quote]Has it ever occurred to you that I was not responding here because I was pre-occupied elsewhere? As regards what Malatose and Lavo had asked me, it was more or less repeat of earlier questions raised which I had already answered. And yes, did not the fact of me continuing to post IC responses a definitive proof that was I was in fact complying with the restrictions you made me aware earlier?[/quote]

I actually do not control Cent, Lavo, and Vektor as they are not my automatons. In fact they should be responded to just like any other player. You had time to write two page long posts IC, but not enough time to simply leave a one sentence note for the three of them? That seems off to me. I think that the situation would be different had you not written multiple long IC posts in the interim. The fact that you did not seemed to be you were ignoring these people.

[quote]Seriously what? Please do educate me on where you pulled the first and second of the bolded portions out of? I am in a war which I know I will not escape unscathed and which is definitely the last stroke for my long time RPd nation and I have ensured that I will not spoil the fun of it by baawing about it. And you accuse me of what?

I simply stated that I am willing to prolong this warfare, I only stated that I intend to extend this war RP for a very long time, to make it an attrition warfare that would make Stalingrad look like a walk in the park. The only time where I have objected is to your excessive need for a victory to the first mass attack itself. And if you did care to read my replied you would see that I have in fact conceded far greater losses to second strikes which are intelligently laid out.

So yeah, get off that high horse.[/quote]

This is not the phrasing you used in the incidents I was referring to. Unfortunately for some reason my irc logging was cut off that day, I'm looking around for another copy. I will get that up as soon as its in my hand.

[quote]You said 20,000 I said I am ready to go down. Then I guess you said 10,000 total BMs and 10,000 CMs and again I agreed to limit myself to. Did you PM me about a further reduction of numbers? NO. If you had, I would have agreed to reduce my numbers even less so long as everyone else complies!! But it was in fact you who was vague about my question of rate of regeneration of these missiles!!

I wont deny that I was seriously considering using thousands of missiles. Some of my defensive strategies were in fact based on having lots of missiles. But I found reason in Triyun's arguments on limiting these numbers and had agreed to reduce it too!! I am even now willing to reduce my missile numbers but you could have asked me!

I did not have all the time until today evening to go through all the posts, and I cannot only access PM alerts while on the move. If you think I am deliberately ignoring you, well it is your misunderstanding.[/quote]

When you give numbers like you did, it seems completely out there, and you were talking in ways which to me at least were interpreted as being seriously way out of whack. Also I would point out, that everyone else is complying.

[quote]
SPS is not far fetched. Solar Power Satellites are really viable. And really where did you get the idea that my entire AADN is powered by SPS? If you had actually cared to read you would have found that SPS is just a backup power support for balloon radars which primarily use batteries and are anyway only expendable systems designed to fill a gap for a few hours until fresh satellites are launched!!
[/quote]

My understanding is that these solar things are huge like kilos across. Plus they're doing extremely sensitive radar coverage of huge swaths of land now or in the near future, something its my understanding that doesn't currently exist in Satellites. I can probably confirm that for you tomorrow more definitively.

[quote]Several years ago and my missile production increased only after your own friends started massive stockpiling. After all it makes no sense to me to limit myself when my hostile neighbors are stockpiling massive weapon stores by my borders!! As a paranoid nation I would only match them and raise the numbers myself in the true spirit of arms race! [/quote]

I've told Vektor no too when he wanted 10, 000 ASBMs, so I'm not sure exactly how that is a counter point.

Edited by Triyun
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[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323797274' post='2876703']
Why use [i]these[/i] words, if you weren't casting aspertions on our truthfulness. It makes no sense. In the context of this paragraph the only thing we could not be truthful about was that a mod said something to us. Therefore the only logical thing for Cent or I to think was that you'd actually think we'd make what a mod says up.
[/quote]

When you in fact made accusations at me of non cooperating when I had cooperated in that manner, it did not indicate to me that you were being truthful in any manner.

So when you have this propensity to say and hear somethings at one time and completely misrepresent it at any other time, then the only logical thing for me to think would be that you may not be in fact be truthful here or may have misinterpreted what the mods said, which I why I said I wanted to see what mods said about this myself.


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323797274' post='2876703']
I actually do not control Cent, Lavo, and Vektor as they are not my automatons. In fact they should be responded to just like any other player. You had time to write two page long posts IC, but not enough time to simply leave a one sentence note for the three of them? That seems off to me. I think that the situation would be different had you not written multiple long IC posts in the interim. The fact that you did not seemed to be you were ignoring these people.
[/quote]

For every one of those "long" posts and for the objections that came subsequent to it I had replied in detail, but I frankly felt that answering same question more than once is something that is left to kindergarten. So if Lavo, Cent and Vektor want replies, I will be sure to post those replies soon.



[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323797274' post='2876703']


This is not the phrasing you used in the incidents I was referring to. Unfortunately for some reason my irc logging was cut off that day, I'm looking around for another copy. I will get that up as soon as its in my hand.
[/quote]

ok

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323797274' post='2876703']


When you give numbers like you did, it seems completely out there, and you were talking in ways which to me at least were interpreted as being seriously way out of whack. Also I would point out, that everyone else is complying.
[/quote]

And I was also complying before you started reporting me unfairly.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323797274' post='2876703']


My understanding is that these solar things are huge like kilos across. Plus they're doing extremely sensitive radar coverage of huge swaths of land now or in the near future, something its my understanding that doesn't currently exist in Satellites. I can probably confirm that for you tomorrow more definitively.
[/quote]

SPS stands for Solar Power Satellites. They convert solar power and transmit them to earth. For more details wiki them, aka search it on Wikipedia. SPS is only a backup power source. They do not power systems entirely. They do not have the ability to power very power hungry systems like ground radars. Once again, read before jumping to conclusions.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323797274' post='2876703']


I've told Vektor no too when he wanted 10, 000 ASBMs, so I'm not sure exactly how that is a counter point.
[/quote]

How that is a counter point is I am addressing your unfortunate assumption that I am playing to the same strategy that I was playing some years earlier. Just gave you the reason for the change in strategy.

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In regards to not cooperating, I still say and I doubt I'm being unreasonable about this. That you not answering people's OOC questions after a week with even a simple sentence saying 'give me a bit' is being uncooperative. I don't think that is out there. I fail to see why you're under the impression that others should contort for you but not you for them. Efforts were made to reach out to you, you did not address them. If you had issues of time, you should have simply let people know. Again you had enough time to write [u]many[/u] sentences IC, I'm saying just [u]one[/u] explaining the situation OOC. I hardly consider that as something unreasonable.

Further in regards to these radars, they had enough power that you used claimed undisrupted detection of stealth aircraft with radar absorbing materials over a front bigger than the entire western front during WW II with seemingly little trouble. If that is the case then logically they consume a tremendous amount of energy... unless I'm missing something here.

In regards to the last point. My point is that though many people have done an arms race, everyone is still capped at some degree of common sense not just you. When you said China should be limited, I presumed that you are not simply saying China should be limited because its China while Cochin should not. I am presuming that you were saying that you initiated a different IC strategy. I am pointing out that you aren't the first person who has been limited in missile numbers despite RPing a build up, simply for the sake of common sense and fairness.

If you have this unlimited missile stockpile thing that doesn't have anything to do with in game, you get a situation where older nations become near unassailable on stuff that there is not quantifiable balance involved in. It just rewards people who sit on their ass pressing the build button and is unfair to newer players or creating dynamic RP environments.

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[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323799285' post='2876733']
In regards to not cooperating, I still say and I doubt I'm being unreasonable about this. That you not answering people's OOC questions after a week with even a simple sentence saying 'give me a bit' is being uncooperative. I don't think that is out there. I fail to see why you're under the impression that others should contort for you but not you for them. Efforts were made to reach out to you, you did not address them. If you had issues of time, you should have simply let people know. Again you had enough time to write [u]many[/u] sentences IC, I'm saying just [u]one[/u] explaining the situation OOC. I hardly consider that as something unreasonable.

Further in regards to these radars, they had enough power that you used claimed undisrupted detection of stealth aircraft with radar absorbing materials over a front bigger than the entire western front during WW II with seemingly little trouble. If that is the case then logically they consume a tremendous amount of energy... unless I'm missing something here.

In regards to the last point. My point is that though many people have done an arms race, everyone is still capped at some degree of common sense not just you. When you said China should be limited, I presumed that you are not simply saying China should be limited because its China while Cochin should not. I am presuming that you were saying that you initiated a different IC strategy. I am pointing out that you aren't the first person who has been limited in missile numbers despite RPing a build up, simply for the sake of common sense and fairness.

If you have this unlimited missile stockpile thing that doesn't have anything to do with in game, you get a situation where older nations become near unassailable on stuff that there is not quantifiable balance involved in. It just rewards people who sit on their ass pressing the build button and is unfair to newer players or creating dynamic RP environments.
[/quote]

When I am faced with a severe constraint on time, I prefer to actually writing RP than write yet more OOC arguments which I had addressed earlier on itself. Then again, I did agree to respond hereon.

And excuse me, what contortion did I enforce upon anyone? Unless I recall it wrong, it was me who agreed to edit my attack posts based on corrections you told me.
And sure I spend more time actually writing out IC RP rather than nitpicking on technicalities. At least I do not copy/paste attack posts from older threads in acts of ingenious originality and baaw when such original mass attacks are countered? I have ensured that I continue to give adequate RPs and casualties to all attacks on me, but the responses I have seen are mostly OOC baawing when the attacker's dreams of a straight victory are denied to them.

You are missing something there. Those balloons are powered by batteries and depend on SPS lasers only for redundancy in power and that too for the scant few hours they remain until replaced by satellites.

Triyun, seriously how many times do I have to repeat the answer to the same question before it sinks in for you? I do not deny that I intended to RP massive numbers of missiles. I also accept that my numbers will be reduced to more common sense numbers so long as those numbers are applicable to others as well. I also insist that a certain regeneration level be agreed upon , a point you are in fact ignoring to address.

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I think the basic core problem of the missile cap issue can be summarized as below.

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1323792685' post='2876618']
In addition, the main problem I see is the disregard of procedure where after some (obviously) informal discussion on the numbers of missiles, you and Cent proceeded to choose a number and pass it through without any correspondence with Cochin on the specific number. If Cochin had been notified of the number and either agreed or refused, and then you went for a majority rule by talking with the mods, then I would have seen no problem.

It's all about timing, Triyun. Frankly, many of your proposals came out at convenient times, and that really doesn't help with your credibility. Now, if you've been constantly pushing for missiles caps, and the proper procedure had been followed, then I wouldn't even be taking the (to your standards) hardline stance I am taking right now. Heck, I'll probably be supporting you all the way through to bed.
[/quote]
Perhaps Triyun/Cent can just admit to this problem and then move on?

Edited by Kankou
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[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1323800393' post='2876746']
When I am faced with a severe constraint on time, I prefer to actually writing RP than write yet more OOC arguments which I had addressed earlier on itself. Then again, I did agree to respond hereon.

And excuse me, what contortion did I enforce upon anyone? Unless I recall it wrong, it was me who agreed to edit my attack posts based on corrections you told me.
And sure I spend more time actually writing out IC RP rather than nitpicking on technicalities. At least I do not copy/paste attack posts from older threads in acts of ingenious originality and baaw when such original mass attacks are countered? I have ensured that I continue to give adequate RPs and casualties to all attacks on me, but the responses I have seen are mostly OOC baawing when the attacker's dreams of a straight victory are denied to them.

You are missing something there. Those balloons are powered by batteries and depend on SPS lasers only for redundancy in power and that too for the scant few hours they remain until replaced by satellites.

Triyun, seriously how many times do I have to repeat the answer to the same question before it sinks in for you? I do not deny that I intended to RP massive numbers of missiles. I also accept that my numbers will be reduced to more common sense numbers so long as those numbers are applicable to others as well. I also insist that a certain regeneration level be agreed upon , a point you are in fact ignoring to address.
[/quote]

Cochin and I talked through this. The SPS is gone.

We can discuss the regeneration levels. Obviously in regards to total amount of missiles in war, if its RPed by common sense and not a total number put for everyone to see before hand in a obvious spot, anyone not just Cochin can run into this issue. If the rule is common sense and on exceeds common sense, pressing back down to common sense levels become necessary in a war. Its impossible without total numbers clearly pointed out prior to war, for one to then say prior to war, no you have too many missiles. You're still bound by common sense rule though, which the cap is an addendum to. I believe we've agreed upon the cap for everyone involved.

In regards to the timing of a decision based on war, its always going to be based on war. I'm not sure Cent and I had any way of knowing that that many missiles would be used prior, had I known I would have said something to Cochin, as I in fact [u]did[/u] say to Vektor when he wanted a high number. So I'm going to dismiss that point, along with Kankou's once again frankly mean spirited charges which try to place everything into personal attacks and conspiracies to suit her political interest. I don't find the conspiracy theories a particularly serious or valid point and thats all the further I'll expand on that matter versus technical details. I think if she actually knew all the facts of cases and what people say in their conversations with one another though she would be quite astonished.

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[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323810420' post='2876909']
So I'm going to dismiss that point, along with Kankou's once again frankly mean spirited charges which try to place everything into personal attacks and conspiracies to suit her political interest. I don't find the conspiracy theories a particularly serious or valid point and thats all the further I'll expand on that matter versus technical details. I think if she actually knew all the facts of cases and what people say in their conversations with one another though she would be quite astonished.
[/quote]
*Rolls eyes*

I suppose only those who engage in conspiracies actually believe in conspiracy theories. i certainly don't.

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Kaiser, my soldiers are well over 31 miles from the border.For your artillery to hit my troops they would have to cross the Cochin border, which you never RPd. I think there are some Border Guards there, I'm not sure.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Yahru.jpg[/img]
The positions I initially posted. My troops are now retreating back down the highway depicted in the map.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/f9VZc.jpg[/img]
The scale on the map.

Edited by freakwars
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[quote name='freakwars' timestamp='1323813653' post='2876942']
Kaiser, my soldiers are well over 31 miles from the border.For your artillery to hit my troops they would have to cross the Cochin border, which you never RPd. I think there are some Border Guards there, I'm not sure.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/Yahru.jpg[/img]
The positions I initially posted. My troops are now retreating back down the highway depicted in the map.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/f9VZc.jpg[/img]
The scale on the map.
[/quote]
You used a very bad map. I need a good sense of size, where the border is, and where everyone is. Anyhoo, you can just say that all the shells fell 10 miles short and nobody died.

Edited by KaiserMelech Mikhail
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[quote name='HK47' timestamp='1324228156' post='2881207']
Any attack or action that goes without response for 10 days from posting (240 hours) is hereby permitted to be auto-advanced. Standard rules requiring sensible losses and damages are required as usual.
[/quote]
If without a proper reason, correct?

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You can't go into a lock after you invade someone else's territory. That said, we'll continue making efforts at trying to contact Cochin, but posting ten days isn't an unreasonable thing in an interactive war. Cochin has been offered a set of peace terms which tries to meet all what he wants to do, except it will give him a bit of a loss of face. Additionally he has the option on the table of doing the war as character RPs in exchange for higher advances. We're not spending 2 months on the beginning of this war. Other people have been in this same situation that he is in before.

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Then Cochin could simply accept the peace terms of Pakistan and India plus getting to keep his space stuff. He told me his dream was a unified sub continent and doing space stuff. I offered to end this for him with him gaining that but losing the rest because he was busy, and he refused saying he couldn't lose the face. I'm not trying to be a dick to him here, but everyone not just he has their story lines and we want to move forward, auto advancing at ten days is a painfully slow process. Afterall I warned him not to go into Pakistan, and he did.

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