Rebel Army-Kingdom of Cochin War

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

Triyun, tomorrow my guys will arrive at the border.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1323055793' post='2862987']
Due to the sheer degree of closeness Cochin and Triyun are fighting in, i think it'd be stupid for him to be using ICBMs against his enemies when we can all just recognize that he's using missiles similar to


those ones.

Of course, for targets that would fall outside the ranges of missiles like the ones i quoted, ie: targets that would require cochin use ICBMs, then he'd need to reduce down to IG CM levels.

But that's just the lowly opinion of an uninvolved party.
[/quote]

Yeah that actually was the thing I'm referring to, he uses ICBMs on a massive attack to hit all my harbors and naval facilities in the Atlantic and at ranges shorter range missiles or even cruise missiles wouldn't work. More specifically:

[quote]From the Mobile Offshore Base 2 located 2000 kms to the West of Cape Verde TEL launchers would start yet another barrage of attack at the Athenian Federation. This northernmost RCN outpost in Atlantic was built for this single purpose alone. To be a platform for a devastating counter attack should Athenians strike Cochin. From the seven modules of the MOB2 10 GG19 ICBMs each would be launched at Athens, Lisbon, Rome, Grand Bahamas, Cape Verde and at every Athenian Naval Base and port in the Atlantic Ocean. Ten missiles would also be fired at the Rebel Army owned Unity Island near Gibraltar. [/quote]

And of course his use of NNEMPs at my Corps along his border.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Centurius

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

Alright Triyun, start naming targets.

[Triyun]

*OFFICIAL RULING*

Per votes of the GM staff (2/3 in favor) and backed by mods Darth Revan and HK-47, we hereby issue the following ruling.

1) ALL remote power systems are hereby wiped. However, units powered by these power systems may be retroactively RPed to normal generator systems.

2) Radar total numbers must be kept on both sides to reasonable levels commensurate with the principles of common sense and IRL.

3) All major economic powers are hereby capped at 3000 cruise missiles 5000 ballistic missiles (mostly being short range) as can be launched by [i]non in game platforms[/i]. In other words this is not a cap on ammunition for planes and ships that exist in game, but rather a cap on ground based launch systems that do not exist in game and are thus not quantifiable.

4) All stealth and counter stealth measures in this RP must be balanced out. This means in practical terms, stealth gives you some degree of surprise, but also radar systems detect stealth sooner than the ideal radar system would.

These caps and such apply to both sides of the conflict. In previous rules, all CN RP non in-game equivalents have been governed by the common sense rule. When the GMs flout this rule it creates precedent for all RPers to cite as a justification to flout the rule. That is obviously not acceptable.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Triyun

[Centurius]

Confirming the ruling and the fact it was upheld by the mods.

[Zoot Zoot]

As all three GM's are involved in this war, and I can safely assume which were the 2/3 voting in favour of such a motion. I bloody well hope this ruling will NOT come into effect until after the war is over. Otherwise It will look quite funky to us outsiders if both GM's, on the same side, just happened to get a ruling backed for a war, both are involved in, the benefits them more than their opponant.

[Triyun]

It applies to the current war to all three GMs. All GMs followed the rule of common sense. When one violates the common sense rule they are equally accountable to every other player. The Mods back us up on this. Its in force. We did not do this lightly, but we felt strongly it was necessary. I recognize its a controversial decision, but I stand wholly behind it, and if people don't like it, that is too bad. Sometimes you have to make a tough call knowing that some people won't like it.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Triyun

[Kankou]

While I consider the new rule logical, I do find this sort of rubber-stamping a bit not to my taste. Has all three GMs expressed their opinions on this before the conclusion?

[iKrolm]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323738133' post='2875825']1) ALL remote power systems are hereby wiped. However, units powered by these power systems may be retroactively RPed to normal generator systems.[/quote]

Could you clarify what remove power systems and normal generator systems are?

[Triyun]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1323747331' post='2876056']
While I consider the new rule logical, I do find this sort of rubber-stamping a bit not to my taste. Has all three GMs expressed their opinions on this before the conclusion?
[/quote]

The one GM has not discussed things with us in this thread. Has not answered PMs and has not been on IRC. It was only after this has gone on for a week that we considered it.


[quote name='iKrolm' timestamp='1323748059' post='2876089']
Could you clarify what remove power systems and normal generator systems are?
[/quote]

Basically, wireless transmission of electricity to power units.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Triyun

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323748259' post='2876095']
The one GM has not discussed things with us in this thread. Has not answered PMs and has not been on IRC. It was only after this has gone on for a week that we considered it.[/quote]
If that's the case, I do see a reason. Still it does leave a slightly bad taste..... Has the mod in question wrote responses in the RP thread after the related discussion PMs were sent? Wanting to clear up things so people might know what was going on.


[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323738133' post='2875825']
1) ALL remote power systems are hereby wiped. However, units powered by these power systems may be retroactively RPed to normal generator systems.[/quote]
Not really too sure about this. I would understand banning on military units (frankly, I can't see that ever becoming possible within the next 20 years), but why ban short-range transmission like say, wireless electric trams used in the inner city?

[Triyun]

I assume you mean Cochin not the mod. Yes Cochin has in fact written responses in the RP thread. Malatose, Cent, Lavo can all confirm I have asked people hold off on posting advances too, while waiting for Cochin to show up to talk. Simply there has been nothing.

Additionally as always civilian tech is not restricted only military or dual use, GMs prefer not to touch civilian. With civilian tech have fun, so long as you don't use it to claim a military advantage.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Triyun

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323748259' post='2876095']
It was only after this has gone on for a week that we considered it.
[/quote]

Jesus christ you have Cochin outmanned, outgunned and out GMed and you people still can't keep your pants on before the dinner's been served.

[king of cochin]

I had responded to all queries Triyun had asked me in IRC and I had complied with his arguments restricting my missile numbers and now this comes in? the only PM triyun ever asked me was about the terminal guidance on my SRBMs. Frankly I never intended to RP things in that great a detail. What would be required next, to RP out the Cubic capacity of the engines of my trucks? The volume of water bottles carried by my soldiers? And when had any objection on radars been brought up? Anyone who wants to see proof of the PM that Triyun sent me, will be invited to the convo thread.

Now perhaps mods may in fact have ruled in the manner as said, but I would prefer to see a mod posting it themselves before I comply. I frankly do not trust the two other lofty GMs who have been railing these accusations at me when I have always been cooperative when cooperated with. At least for the semblance of fairness you two should have contacted me at least via PM before railroading like this.

Triyun, you sounded reasonable in that IRC conversation, and I had cooperated with you in reducing the numbers and re-interpreting my defenses and attacks. And now you pull such a thing? This is extremely unfortunate.

The ruling if and only if validated by an official posting by a mod would be complied with by me. NOT until then.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323748994' post='2876110']
Yes Cochin has in fact written responses in the RP thread. Malatose, Cent, Lavo can all confirm I have asked people hold off on posting advances too, while waiting for Cochin to show up to talk. Simply there has been nothing.[/quote]
So basically you went on with this reform without discussing it with Cochin? I specifically asked whether there has been any responses [b]after[/b] PMs related to the reforms have been sent, and the only answer you gave was that Cochin has been inactive with RPing. Really, Triyun, must you taint reasonable reforms with this constant avoiding of issues which are against your interests?

[Centurius]

[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1323777092' post='2876457']
I had responded to all queries Triyun had asked me in IRC and I had complied with his arguments restricting my missile numbers and now this comes in? the only PM triyun ever asked me was about the terminal guidance on my SRBMs. Frankly I never intended to RP things in that great a detail. What would be required next, to RP out the Cubic capacity of the engines of my trucks? The volume of water bottles carried by my soldiers? And when had any objection on radars been brought up? Anyone who wants to see proof of the PM that Triyun sent me, will be invited to the convo thread.

Now perhaps mods may in fact have ruled in the manner as said, but I would prefer to see a mod posting it themselves before I comply. I frankly do not trust the two other lofty GMs who have been railing these accusations at me when I have always been cooperative when cooperated with. At least for the semblance of fairness you two should have contacted me at least via PM before railroading like this.

Triyun, you sounded reasonable in that IRC conversation, and I had cooperated with you in reducing the numbers and re-interpreting my defenses and attacks. And now you pull such a thing? This is extremely unfortunate.

The ruling if and only if validated by an official posting by a mod would be complied with by me. NOT until then.
[/quote]

Added you to one of the two conversations already for prove, you'll have to wait for Triyun to add you to the other one. You can ask them there to post it.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1323780899' post='2876474']
Added you to one of the two conversations already for prove, you'll have to wait for Triyun to add you to the other one. You can ask them there to post it.
[/quote]
Isn't this basically confirming that the regular GM consensus has been bypassed, with the mods being brought into the situation without a due process of procedure? Since when did the mods have such power to confirm any ruling in a situation where there is no unreasonable sides to an issue, never mind the complete locking out one party to the actual discussions related to the reforms? Frankly, this is quite a disturbing situation.

[king of cochin]

The very first accusation you levelled against me in that PM to mod is false, that my Air Defense Network is powered by Tesla SPS. Only those modified weather balloons that were launched to cover the few hours of radar gap until I relaunch satellites have SPS as "secondary" power source. I thought I had made that obvious to Triyun, guess I was mistaken. Same with the missile numbers, the 20000 limit itself was suggested by Triyun! And in the PM the mod certainly did not seem to support your claims completely, he thought they seemed reasonable but he still felt he had to read the threads in question.

As I said I will wait until a mod actually posts supporting your ruling before I constrain myself to it.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1323781329' post='2876479']
Isn't this basically confirming that the regular GM consensus has been bypassed, with the mods being brought into the situation without a due process of procedure? Since when did the mods have such power to confirm any ruling in a situation where there is no unreasonable sides to an issue, never mind the complete locking out one party to the actual discussions related to the reforms? Frankly, this is quite a disturbing situation.
[/quote]

The mods were brought in because it's the mods that set up the procedure, the GMs requiring a concensus during a war has only been a common understanding, rather than an actual rule. For all intents and purposes the GM team has no set rules on how it can exercise its function, in such controversial cases as this one it is actually wuite common to involve moderation to confirm and uphold rulings. For example during the last Korean war we also stepped to the mods to confirm a ruling.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Centurius

[Kankou]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1323781701' post='2876484']
The mods were brought in because it's the mods that set up the procedure, the GMs requiring a concensus during a war has only been a common understanding, rather than an actual rule. For all intents and purposes the GM team has no set rules on how it can exercise its function, in such controversial cases as this one it is actually wuite common to involve moderation to confirm and uphold rulings. For example during the last Korean war we also stepped to the mods to confirm a ruling.
[/quote]
Again the main point has been missed: The other side has not been given a chance to actually participate in the real discussions concerning the reforms. The reason this would be controversial is that, as I already wrote, we have locking out of a party. If Cochin had been able to discuss the issues, and he stubbornly held his position (whatever it might be), then I would see reason in having the mods overriding the deadlock.

The specific Korean War example cannot be applied here, since there has been sufficient [b]public forum[/b] discussions by all sides on the issues. However, the current situation is where we have seen barely anything on the forums related to the actual reforms, combined with what seems to be deliberate misinterpretation in order to make the flow of discussions go in one particular direction.


As I have said before, I am not against the reform itself. However, it is the form in which it was passed, along with the timing, that makes me be against it. For the sake of clarity and fairness, it would most likely be necessary that the discussions be made private, and that there be a stay of motion in the meantime.

[Captain Enema]

I can see this ending well.

[Zoot Zoot]

If this ruling comes into effect after the war, I cannot see anybody going against it.

[Triyun]

[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1323777092' post='2876457']
I had responded to all queries Triyun had asked me in IRC and I had complied with his arguments restricting my missile numbers and now this comes in? the only PM triyun ever asked me was about the terminal guidance on my SRBMs. Frankly I never intended to RP things in that great a detail. What would be required next, to RP out the Cubic capacity of the engines of my trucks? The volume of water bottles carried by my soldiers? And when had any objection on radars been brought up? Anyone who wants to see proof of the PM that Triyun sent me, will be invited to the convo thread.

Now perhaps mods may in fact have ruled in the manner as said, but I would prefer to see a mod posting it themselves before I comply. I frankly do not trust the two other lofty GMs who have been railing these accusations at me when I have always been cooperative when cooperated with. At least for the semblance of fairness you two should have contacted me at least via PM before railroading like this.

Triyun, you sounded reasonable in that IRC conversation, and I had cooperated with you in reducing the numbers and re-interpreting my defenses and attacks. And now you pull such a thing? This is extremely unfortunate.

The ruling if and only if validated by an official posting by a mod would be complied with by me. NOT until then.
[/quote]

First of all, to accuse me of impersonating a mod is silly because it is a bannable offense and easily disproven. If I claimed to rule for a mod, and didn't tell them anyone could report me and I'd be banned from the boards. Before throwing something like that out Cochin check your facts.

You did stop your PMs with me, and you did stop talking on this board to Lavo, Cent, and Malatose at all. At the same time you did continue to post IC attacks.

As for why guidance on SRBMs are necessary, you could have simply responded to the PM and asked, but their guidance has different countermeasures taken against each.

You have hardly been 'nothing but cooperative' Cochin. You have consistently made charges that we 'just want you to give up' and others which come off as extraordinarily arrogant, misrepresentations, and like you are not at all interested in actually doing anything other than get 100 percent your way. You cannot have it both ways. When we see you not respond at all, despite these things being out here for weeks and then respond IC, yes people do get very frustrated.


[quote name='king of cochin' timestamp='1323781563' post='2876482']
The very first accusation you levelled against me in that PM to mod is false, that my Air Defense Network is powered by Tesla SPS. Only those modified weather balloons that were launched to cover the few hours of radar gap until I relaunch satellites have SPS as "secondary" power source. I thought I had made that obvious to Triyun, guess I was mistaken. Same with the missile numbers, the 20000 limit itself was suggested by Triyun! And in the PM the mod certainly did not seem to support your claims completely, he thought they seemed reasonable but he still felt he had to read the threads in question.

As I said I will wait until a mod actually posts supporting your ruling before I constrain myself to it.
[/quote]

That is a bit deceptive there of you. I threw out 20, 000 as a complete exaggeration, and you quite clearly didn't see it as anything approaching that. You went to 10, 000 at which point I was meh whatever and was going to talk to you about it another day you stopped responding in general. But in the context I think its pretty clear I used the 20k number as what we [i]shouldn't[/i] have, thinking that nobody would go anywhere near that, and then you seemed to quite clearly be envisioning as that not being anything like a cap. After this you simply flat out stopped responding to me, and still had not responded to Cent or Lavo at all. I read this conversation as 20k and 10k which I considered exaggerated numbers, to you were completely serious ones.

Again after this you simply stopped responding to [i]all[/i] OOC up until now.

[quote]
cochin: GG10s are SRBMs
[1:27pm] Triyun: at least is our understanding
[1:27pm] Triyun: so this is most of your ballistic missiles
[1:28pm] Triyun: including the attacks against everyone
[1:28pm] cochin: actually I had RPd quite massive stockpiles
[1:28pm] Triyun: I think we agreed like nobody should have 20, 000 of everything
[1:28pm] Triyun: I RPed a massive build up too
[1:28pm] Triyun: but
[1:28pm] cochin: I mean in the routine inventory disposal itself, the inventories had been massibve
[1:28pm] Triyun: like
[1:28pm] cochin: I dont remember any 20000 limit
[1:29pm] Triyun: Cochin, there is a limit to what a nation can maintain
[1:29pm] Triyun: of a non-existent weapon
[1:29pm] Triyun: The rule has always been
[1:29pm] Triyun: use sensible limits of stuff that isn't accounted for in game
[1:29pm] Triyun: RPing more ballistic missiles than exist IRL clearly violates that
[1:30pm] cochin: well I do not remember any post restricting the numbers of ballistic missiles
[1:30pm] cochin: of course the caps on ICBMs were there
[1:30pm] Triyun: We agreed all military equipment
[1:31pm] cochin: but on ballistics in general
[1:31pm] Triyun: that does not exist in game
[1:31pm] Triyun: can be accounted for on sensible limits
[1:31pm] Triyun: helicopters, drones, awacs, and yes missiles
[1:31pm] Triyun: are you honestly going to say that you think having say 80, 000 ballistic missiles is remotely sensible?
[1:32pm] [b]cochin: so let us say I am limited by 20000 missiles[/b], does that mean for duration of war I would have only 20000 missiles with no scope for warftime production?
[1:34pm] Triyun: I know that the missiles take a lot of time to make. Because as far as war time goes, you'd have to have different time zones going between production and actual fighting I am guessing. If you did I think we should all get together and make it. And btw, 20k I gave as an exagerrated number I'm actually quite surprised you think its a reasonable total for just ballistic missiles.
[1:34pm] Triyun: I mean China which has been building the stuff non stop of 20 years is only at a 1000 or so.
[1:34pm] cochin: how many did USSR have?
[1:35pm] Triyun: Russia had a cap of about 30, 000 warheads I think, but that included not just its ballistic missiles but also its cruise missiles and suit case nukes.
[1:35pm] Triyun: that was back
[1:36pm] Triyun: when both cruise and ballistic missiles were mainly entirely nukes
[1:36pm] Triyun: accuracy was much less of an issue too
[1:36pm] Triyun: because 250 kiloton bombs tend to cover an area
[1:37pm] cochin: my offensive and defensive doctrines depend a lot on ballistic missiles, SRBMs
[1:37pm] Triyun: to be honest and I've always said this, if people would accurately RP missile defenses (this applies to both of us), we'd need a lot fewer missiles
[1:38pm] Triyun: but
[1:38pm] Triyun: I mean
[1:38pm] Triyun: if you had say 10, 000 ballistic missiles, 10, 000 cruise missiles
[1:38pm] Triyun: wouldn't that have the same effect
[1:38pm] Triyun: because one of the problems I have here
[1:38pm] Triyun: is I'm presuming your counting your cruise missiles seperately from the ballistics
[1:38pm] cochin: actually no, My SOP Doctrine depends on delivering weapon systems from a ballistic payload
[1:39pm] Triyun: so if say you had 20, 000
[1:39pm] cochin: yes, my cruise missiles have yet to play a part
[1:39pm] Triyun: you would not be having cruise missiles?
[1:39pm] Triyun: 10, 000 ballistic missiles
[1:39pm] Triyun: would be more than any nation IRL has
[1:39pm] Triyun: it would not be a particularly low number
[1:40pm] cochin: hmm. I am willing to accept a can on 10000 BMs and 10000 CMs from now on, so long as I am also able to RP a modest production number
[1:40pm] Triyun: well what do you consider modest, because like imo, one post reflects about six hours of fighting in RP time atm
[1:41pm] cochin: 50 per RP month
[1:41pm] cochin: 50 CM+50 BM
[1:42pm] Triyun: which you define as?
[1:42pm] cochin: basically every month of war RP
[1:43pm] cochin: as of now barely a day has been past
[1:43pm] Triyun: ok
[1:43pm] Triyun: also
[1:43pm] Triyun: do you want to plan the result
[1:43pm] Triyun: or not
[1:43pm] cochin: result? what do you mean?[/quote]

SPS again I expressed my disagreement with such a system.

[quote]Triyun: wait
[2:17pm] Triyun: are you claiming
[2:18pm] Triyun: to actually have an efficient remote powering system
[2:18pm] Triyun: covering an area the size of Europe?
[2:18pm] Triyun: key work efficient
[2:18pm] Triyun:
[2:18pm] cochin: i have been rping sps network for ages
[2:18pm] Triyun: that seems a bit far fetched
[2:18pm] Triyun: the costs of that type of energy
[2:18pm] Triyun: would be insane
[2:19pm] cochin: but i have been rping them for such systems[/quote]

All you would say was that you've been RPing them. Thus you should get it. Just because nobody noticed it doesn't mean your not bound by some rules.

I would also point out that in all of this Cochin is playing a sort of feint here. He has in fact been for [i]much[/i] smaller missile caps in the past. In fact he was for a 1000-2000 missile cap on China when I invaded Keshav.



[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1323780762' post='2876472']
So basically you went on with this reform without discussing it with Cochin? I specifically asked whether there has been any responses after PMs related to the reforms have been sent, and the only answer you gave was that Cochin has been inactive with RPing. Really, Triyun, must you taint reasonable reforms with this constant avoiding of issues which are against your interests? [/quote]

Don't try to be an attack dog so hard, it looks bad on you. You asked about a mod making IC responses after the discussion PM was sent. What I assumed you meant was Cochin, as I specified in my response your post. Then it was my impression you were talking about whether or not after my last point of contact (a personal message) to Cochin, were IC posts made. I answered that they were in fact made. I'd be happy to go into a schpiel about how this in fact is not necessary for my interests long term, or how I could do the same overkill thing back to Cochin with a lot more amassed fire power. But I'm guessing most don't want to see it. The fact here is, is that you're jumping to the most hostile conclusion, without even possibly thinking that someone might have interpreted that as referring to a [i]different PM[/i] than you did.


[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1323781329' post='2876479']
Isn't this basically confirming that the regular GM consensus has been bypassed, with the mods being brought into the situation without a due process of procedure? Since when did the mods have such power to confirm any ruling in a situation where there is no unreasonable sides to an issue, never mind the complete locking out one party to the actual discussions related to the reforms? Frankly, this is quite a disturbing situation.
[/quote]

Well [i]that's[/i] jumping to a conclusion before I can respond. Its not even a reform. Its a limiting a GM to the same rules everyone else has which is common sense. The fact is Cochin simply was not responding to multiple people on the board. He wasn't responding to my PM tech inquiries, and he wasn't around on IRC. He was responding IC. I did not even bring this to mods until I got complaints from multiple people that Cochin was ignoring the OOC thread multiple times. By the way you mentioned a public forum, this [i]is[/i] the public forum. Its been neglected for pages by one side. Not even so much as, "I'll address these when I can."

Edited December 13, 2011 by Triyun

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323787988' post='2876517']Don't try to be an attack dog so hard, it looks bad on you.[/quote]
Not really, since that wasn't even a attack dog-mode post.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323787988' post='2876517']I'd be happy to go into a schpiel about how this in fact is not necessary for my interests long term, or how I could do the same overkill thing back to Cochin with a lot more amassed fire power. But I'm guessing most don't want to see it. [/quote]
We've already been through that last time, and we all know what happened.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323787988' post='2876517']You asked about a mod making IC responses after the discussion PM was sent. What I assumed you meant was Cochin, as I specified in my response your post. Then it was my impression you were talking about whether or not after my last point of contact (a personal message) to Cochin, were IC posts made. I answered that they were in fact made. ...... The fact here is, is that you're jumping to the most hostile conclusion, without even possibly thinking that someone might have interpreted that as referring to a [i]different PM[/i] than you did. [/quote]
It was my mistake for constantly making the same mistake of saying mod for when I'm talking about GM. However, the word "hostile" wouldn't really be a word to describe a logical conclusion, since the next part pretty much explains it:

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1323787988' post='2876517']Well [i]that's[/i] jumping to a conclusion before I can respond. Its not even a reform. Its a limiting a GM to the same rules everyone else has which is common sense. The fact is Cochin simply was not responding to multiple people on the board. He wasn't responding to my PM tech inquiries, and he wasn't around on IRC. He was responding IC. I did not even bring this to mods until I got complaints from multiple people that Cochin was ignoring the OOC thread multiple times. By the way you mentioned a public forum, this [i]is[/i] the public forum. Its been neglected for pages by one side. Not even so much as, "I'll address these when I can."
[/quote]
Please tell me how "Not responding to RP" leads to "Limiting a GM to the same rules everyone else has which is common sense" which includes [b]some new missile cap[/b]. The only reason for such course of action I can see is a shock therapy, with the complaints so far on this thread about missiles being either that the specific base could not have hold many large missiles, or that most missiles would fall under ICBM.

[Justinian the Mighty]

Cochin I need you te respond to my short, and rather easy to respond to attack. Thanks.