agafaba

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1281896239' post='2416816'] The problem is that "might makes right" isnt the right phrase here. Whats more important for the larger political implication is, going forward when the Sith tell us to do something about it, they know we will. No matter if it blows up into a global war or if they go it alone. Thats the more important message, it was and will be a ROK/Sith matter what other people think of the CB is immaterial as its as good of one as your going to see. The squaking is PR, we get that and understand why certain actors have to portray it the way they are. As long as the message is clear to the Sith that we will do something about it when they throw down the gauntlet of war, mission accomplished. I suspect the next time they will move on to someone less willing to do so. oh, you should send out some messages to Hal, Haflinger and the relic Brainimir this discussion sorely lacks their insight, all though Paul showed up which is a good thing. [/quote] Its more than that though, as everything in CN is public eventually. The message you are sending, regardless of its level of "rightness", is that RoK will follow through with a threat/promise that it has made. Notice that I excluded NSO, because in the end it is for more than just NSO, and rightly. Kind of like the situation I described in other threads (except taking it from RoK's pov instead of NSO), RoK was placed in a situation when the aid was sent that it could avoid war, likely to nobody benefit, or to engage in war. Had RoK not declared it would have shown that not everyone needs to take your word seriously. So just like NSO aided to defend their image, RoK had to declare to defend theirs. Slightly more on topic to the op, even NSO admits the CB is legit. All the arguing is more around the points that lead to war and less about the war itself.

[quote name='Caleb279' timestamp='1281832024' post='2416177'] Is GPA or TDO the biggest alliance? No. [/quote] Well I can honestly say that GPA lost a lot of NS when it was attacked, and might be the biggest alliance if it wasnt.

[quote name='Shakira' timestamp='1281753404' post='2415265'] [color="#FFFF00"][font="Comic Sans MS"]I really don't get it.[/font][/color] [/quote] You just dont know the whole stoy.

[quote name='lazaraus45' timestamp='1281744570' post='2415072'] regardless, it proves he was engaged in an aggressive war against one of our protectorates nations, surely you would agree that that is enough information for the Sith to hand him over? [/quote] Not necessarily, perhaps in the long run but if I think someone is being treated unfairly I will try to argue their case. Once you told me he was taking aid and had spied offensively previously I would have changed my opinion of his rogue status. (that is to say I would agree with RoK completely)

[quote name='lazaraus45' timestamp='1281744127' post='2415063'] i'm wondering how many times things usually have to be repeated to the sith before they can comprehend it, perhaps the problem with Hoo's warning is that he didn't repeat it 50 times for you, oh well, i have the patience to repeat this as much as needs be, the information you're looking for is on the warscreens, look here: http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=409035&Extended=1 an aggressive attack on a TENE member makes Sedrick a rogue, and until you can find proof that the nation above attempted any harm to Sedrick, the attack is an aggressive one [/quote] I think the issue you are having is not everyone thinks of rogues the same. For example if a nation decided to attack me because my alliance mate was spying on him I wouldnt consider him a rogue. Perhaps when he took the whole thing too far I might, but a couple days no.

[quote name='Caleb279' timestamp='1281743072' post='2415036'] While it isn't his choice persay, it his fault. I laugh at your attempt of a comeback. Whats actually getting old is nations pissing and moaning about tech raiding. [/quote] Its not his fault he got raided, but it is his fault that his nation burns when he is raided. Being unaligned isnt the same as taunting every alliance, its more akin to not defending yourself properly.

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281741372' post='2414992'] admit to what? that we're kicking their $@!? I will fully admit that! no questions here! [/quote] I would hope so, it would be incredibly insulting if you couldnt beat NSO with those odds.

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1281658055' post='2413463'] I understand what you were saying, you just chose a less then flattering tact to say it in. We've served together before, you know how I roll and you know the persona here is a touch off then what you get elsewhere.... So here's Odin for you mate. The Sith had control of the situation entirely, they had all the cards to play and the chose to play the one card that resulted in us calling. They could have not sent the aid and this war wouldnt have happened. Yep, its that simple despite the gaggle here looking to shatter their boredom it really was their call to make. Perhaps they thought it was a bluff themselves? Perhaps they didnt like be talked to the way they, in the past, have chosen to talk to others? (Jason8, sup?) I couldnt tell what thier rational was, nor do I care at this point its a done deal. [/quote] I agree, and really all this has been more of an effort to curb boredom. I usually do my best to fill the role I am arguing for, I actually have nothing against RoK and definitely nothing against its members. Its not often that there is a situation that can be argued without resorting to "aah new hegemony" so I had to enjoy it while it lasts.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1281657413' post='2413449'] ... and don't get yourself rolled. [/quote] Sometimes thats the best part... Most fun I had was getting rolled by RoK and fighting rogues with far superior tech levels.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1281656945' post='2413435'] I'm less inclined to continue the rest of our circular argument as it has become just that, but I will say this: If those are the only two choices you see presented to you upon reading those logs, I hope that for the welfare of your alliance you are never put in a similar situation. [/quote] I might have thought differently if there was any indication that RoK was going to show evidence of some sort. Anyway this situation is a bit more common for me, micro alliances got it hard

Pryath you seems to be a bit more important in your mind then in reality. Just because you are winning this fight with all the help you received doesnt mean this will stay true for eternity. You are making TETE look bad. Joke around like you did a few times instead of acting like you are superior to NSO and you will find a lot more people will respect you.

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281651162' post='2413334'] The difference is you're not an idiot (I hope). I'd hope you know that spying on someone is bad. However I doubt this TENE nation did. However one failed Defcon change level does not require attacks on multiple people. It's roguery plain and simple. [/quote] Ignorance has never been an acceptable excuse. How would we know if we were declared on or not if we had to first determine if the offender was smart enough to understand his actions? He did go overboard by declaring on multiple people in retaliation, but I know lots of people that would do so because they would see it as an alliance wide action.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1281647167' post='2413213'] What exactly was Hoo "ordering"? He said RoK would continue to attack unless paid reps, and that the aid would be considered an act of war. Those aren't orders, that's information. [/quote] You could tell me that collecting taxes will get me rolled, and although its not technically an order it is a round about way of just telling me "dont collect taxes or else" RoK said "dont aid your member or it would be an act of war" without providing any evidence that the nation wasnt simply protecting itself. Seems like a round about way of saying "dont aid him or else". [quote] There was more dialog then the logs posted. There also werent any orders, Hoo said if they aided we would consider it an act of war. The Sith had control over the outcome the entire time, they made a choice with full knowledge of how it would be viewed and the potential outcome of the action. Suggesting otherwise would paint them as idiots, and they are anything but.[/quote] Best argument I have seen so far, and I wont ask for logs because its none of my business. Depending whats in the previous discussions RoK may have tried diplomacy much more then the public logs show. Of course NSO knew what would happen, or at the very least that RoK would take insult. I was just saying that from the logs I can see if I put myself in Heft's shoes I would have felt there were 2 options. Lose credibility by allowing another alliance to do as they please. Lose NS possibly, definitely make RoK angry.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281643354' post='2413122'] Ok let's get this clear since it seems to be causing you some problems. Yes, spying on someone is a valid CB (so I don't recommend widespread spying of our Defcon levels). Acting on a CB, and going to war, puts you into a state of aggressive war (justified with a good CB, not justified without one, which is the subjective part usually). Going into a state of aggressive war when you're unaligned, or in applicant status, makes you a rogue, even if your war is justified. [/quote] I agree with everything you said truthfully, with the exception of the rogue bit. I suppose I think of unaligned nations as unemployed instead of illegal immigrants. Defending yourself shouldnt be grounds for ZI.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1281642508' post='2413087'] That's a flimsy justification. Saying that Hoo wasn't much interested in that kind of dialog is useless speculation since NSO didn't even try to start it. [/quote] Shouldnt RoK have started some real dialog? Hoo was giving orders, not opening a discussion.

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1281641574' post='2413052'] But they voted unanimously with Omni to approve the cancellation in the first place. Where was the faith? The trust in waiting to hear our side of the story? [/quote] To be honest if I was in that situation I could see myself voting against NSO. You trust fellow government members, especially ones high up, to tell the truth. Add to that the shock that your ally is trying to screw you over and emotionally I would be pissed. I would be even more upset and betrayed once I found out the truth, and would likely try to reverse it, but things would have still played out all the same.

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281639331' post='2412999'] How was this bullying? They changed his DEFCON level (well tried to). If you consider that bullying then you need to grow a thicker skin. [/quote] Bob was stating that it matters not why the unaligned decided to defend himself, simply the act of doing so makes unaligned rogues, at said point Merrie posted a "do something about it" and I replied sarcastically. Besides the fact as a few others pointed out, I doubt you would be saying the same thing if I started to spy defcon levels of your alliances members. Perhaps VE needs to grow a thicker skin as well.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1281639108' post='2412995'] Okay I think people here are stuck in a false dichotomy. There was more than two things NSO could have done. Why not just [i]not aid the guy[/i]? That does not mean expelling him or throwing him to the wolves, and it certainly wouldn't mean "giving in to pressure". What about "Could you order a temporary ceasefire while you provide us with further evidence?" That might have been a good starting point! [/quote] Looking at the logs it didnt look like Hoo was much interested. I didnt see much compromise coming from RoK, just ultimatums. I could be wrong, but thats how I read the logs.

[quote name='Rongue' timestamp='1281571733' post='2411768'] Where did you get that idea? NSO thought he was a rogue, they could have just handed him over because it would have been the right thing to do. In that situation they could not lose, hell no one besides RoK would have known. [/quote] NSO has consistently stated they did not think he was a rogue, that they saw evidence that he was spied on, and counter attacked. If NSO let him go without some effort to defend him it would have shown that they gave in to pressure somewhat easily. If NSO defended him.. well we see how that turned out. SO you get to choose, lose your respect or lose your NS. Sounds like lose/lose to me (except war is kinda fun so lose/draw imo)

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281634282' post='2412878'] Can we now expect your side of this argument to now begin taking in all of the unaligned that have been aggressively attacked? [/quote] Indeed, my micro alliance will now aggressively defend every unaligned just because some people cant handle that they might get some resistance when bullying the weak.

From what I can see NSO is more upset because the wound is still fresh, so fresh in fact its still bleeding. Magic I would give NSO as a whole a bit more of a chance, even as a complete outsider it looks like they want to keep things friendly. Even if GATO-NSO relations are lost forever, dont give up on the friends you made there.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1281620579' post='2412635'] Irrelevant. There is proof that the rogue nation started aggressive wars while unaligned or in applicant status. What provoked him to do that is irrelevant. Though why you'd choose to believe a clearly unstable rogue (you've seen logs of him right?) over a respected alliance leader I'm not sure. [/quote] Declaring that a unaligned nation that was spied against and decided to defend itself is a rogue is kind of sad. Its completely in your power, but still kind of sad.

[quote name='Rongue' timestamp='1281550876' post='2411348'] Ah glad to see you are not hard headed. I personaly think this is worth going to war over. Like I said at the time he was thought to be a rogue, and he was aided when both sides believed this. It was clearly said it was an act of war meaning RoK would declare. Maybe damages wise the whole thing is not worth a war but heft basicaly spat in the face of RoK by letting seddrick have aid anyways. So damages wise it is not worth war, but it was insulting to say the least. Pride is not the reason either, if an alliance allows insults like that to happen then more will follow. By the way I did not know some of what you said, thanks. [/quote] Interestingly enough though the same can be said for NSO, that if they let RoK tell them what to do others would soon follow. Like I said somewhere else, it was a lose/lose situation for NSO.

[quote name='Machiabelly' timestamp='1281474077' post='2410145'] What if you are allied to both sides? [/quote] The chart never lies, simply go down both paths.

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' timestamp='1281544433' post='2411189'] There have been greater examples of cowardice, and this is not one of them. Take your QQing elsewhere. [/quote] Not to mention the fact that NSO didnt want them to join, so in the end cancellation or not GATO wasnt getting into the fight. I dont like how GATO did it in particular, but they are not cowards for it.