DeadAnimal

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1285863743' post='2469817'] the goal IS war. [/quote] I like this answer the best. You sir have your priorities straight.

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1285863773' post='2469818'] Would someone mind clearing up this FnKa/tR beef for me? I didn't know who tR was until we absorbed a bunch of their members and I didn't know a whole lot about FnKa until they declared war on us so a refresher would be nice. Thanks [/quote] FnKa and MOON merged. There was a difference of alliance culture and opinions. People got mad, and a handful of ex-FnKa members left. Not too much of a beef. More like a 'Hey, its cool I get to nuke you now.'

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1285862452' post='2469804'] ... this truly is a wonderful gift. [/quote] We are in agreement then. Lets enjoy our war and not sully it with pettiness.

[quote name='denkimon' timestamp='1285854025' post='2469702'] New Hotness: "We don't like you" CB (I've often wondered when this would finally happen. I love it). [/quote] Take some and pass it on. Hope we seen GOONS use it soon. [quote name='denkimon' timestamp='1285854025' post='2469702'] Getting help from allies in wartime? COWARDS! [/quote] This is one I do not understand. The more the merrier. Especially you fiesty PC and iFOK types.

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1285850365' post='2469673'] Ok can we stop with the "You are cowards, you don't fight them 1 on 1" line of reasoning please? It is inane and makes my stomach turn around. It is just as bad, if not worse, than "You are cowards, you hide in peace". [/quote] I agree, certainly GOONS are not cowards, no one sane would expect a one on one fight in an alliance war. Pick something legitimate to criticize them for.

[center][IMG]http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt31/Azaarious/FnKaBanner002.jpg[/IMG][/center] To you duly neckbearded GOONS: From one raiding alliance to another, we cannot stand the way you do things. In fact, we despise it. To be honest we think you guys are acting like great giant bags of man-!@#$% for the way you handle raiding. It makes us all look bad, and that was before you started letting ex-tR members join. However, I digress. Our specific causes of action currently include: Nuking of raid targets that fight back, repeated instances of raiding of protected or sovereign AA's, lack of an effective means to correct flagrant rule breakers, and the abuse of sanctions through the attempted redefinition of legitimate alliances as rogues. But lets not get bogged down in the details. Suffice to say we don't like you and we are doing something about it. We feel your current behavior is unacceptable; we expect better from raiding alliances. Therefore, we at FnKa make the following ultimatum: You will adopt the following revision to the GOONS charter: [u][b]GOONS Clause Concerning Raiding:[/b][/u] GOONS recognize that Raiding is an inherent privilege, not a right, and comes with the following obligations: 1) GOONS will not raid legitimate alliances. In times of peace, GOONS recognize the sovereignty and security of other alliances. An "alliance" is defined as any group of nations, regardless of size or number, that have posted a Declaration of Existence via any reasonable means. 2) The privilege of raiding will therefore only be practiced on unaligned nations and those nations on a non declared AA; as they are not afforded the protection given to alliance members, and may be attacked at the discretion of individual GOONS members. Should a GOONS member bite off more than he can chew and get beaten up while attacking an unaligned nation, he will not receive backup from any other nation. Nuclear Weapons are never to be used in response to the raid target fighting back. Any violation of these stipulations will result in the 1 month minimum suspension of raiding privileges, with privileges to be restored only when the raider demonstrates knowledge of these guidelines and a willingness to adhere to them. In the case of raids on non allowable targets, reparations will be paid based on actual damage, at a rate of 1:1 for compensatory damages and 30:1 for punitive damages, payable only by the raider. We also make the following good faith recommendations: First, present a consistent front. Our cooperation on your charter is a big first step; however, its not enough. Yes, it takes more work to not fall into the pattern of thinking where if your opponents don't matter, sarcasm without substance is a sufficient response. Your talents exceed this low standard; it also happens to earn you respect when you can join a consistent solid argument to wit and sarcasm. Any reasonable person would conclude Methrage is rogue. We have refused to aid him, and will continue to do so following this. We recognize you have every right to set a standard for repercussions for aiding rogues. You still managed to look bad on a cut and dry issue; don't diverge into petty bickering. Also, Hikaus are the minor leagues, bring some sonnets, and possibly even a shower to the table to class it up. We look forward to your honorable conduct. Until this is adopted, you will be subjected to combat by the Fear none Kill all Alliance. Expect no quarter. It is therefore held that on this, the 1727th day of the Planet Bob, the Fear none Kill all Alliance declares a state of war with the GOON Order of Negligence, Sadism, and Negligence. Signed: Prime Minister - SkaPunk Minister of Foreign Affairs - Aspen Minister of Internal Affairs - Lord of Assassins Minister of Defense - DeadAnimal Minister of Finance - MVP2000 Minister of Recruiting - Silent Fury Minister of Subversive Activity - Mikhail K Vasilyev [center][IMG]http://i595.photobucket.com/albums/tt31/Azaarious/FnKaFlag010.jpg[/IMG][/center] Note 1: This was planned far before news of the Ninjas attack broke, so leave your accusations of bandwagoning at the door. While SilentFury particularly has history with Ejayrazz, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXMCETKOXYc] its always been in the spirit of friendly competition. We respect what they are doing and we respect Ejayrazz. It is just a happy coincidence we aren't the only people that don't like GOONS' M.O., nothing more. Note 2: On the issue of GOONS and what will be the inevitable response from their allies; Yes there is no argument that the GOONS is correct to want, request and/or permit their allies to fight. The existence of a curb-stomp and a declaration of war where the CB is policy based are mutually exclusive. Its still more honorable for you GOONS to not call in your allies. You have 10:1 odds already, have some spine. Regardless of your decision, we certainly expect a formal declaration of war or a statement of intent to activate MDP to be communicated before any attacks by nations not in GOONS are launched.

Hooray for potentially more trades.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1285692802' post='2466931'] Man, it only seems like yesterday that people got outraged over stuff that was actually worth it. [/quote] You mean that YOU used to get outraged over stuff that YOU felt was worth it. Back when you got to be the victim actually. Odd coincidence that.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1285691298' post='2466903'] Yes, they declared war on us in fact, and hit nations who weren't involved with the tech raids when they retaliated. This is the end result. Schattenman clearly didn't do enough as their protector to help them make their mark on bob, pretty clear he only did it in the first place for political reasons. [/quote] You mean the poor little raid target actually fought back to your acts of agression? Woe is you! That totally justifies continuing to raid them after they got protection.

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1285690464' post='2466889'] Mess with the best, die like the rest . [/quote] Yeah, because a protected AA really messed with you. Way to celibrate a loss to the community of Bob. Hope you feel cool there tough guy.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1285559066' post='2465789'] I think it would be supercool if someone started the first/only CN-themed alliance, like, you could start an alliance centered around veneration of moderator. [/quote] Looks like you were a touch too subtle on this one; I guess this means the cult needs to do more proselytizing.

[quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1285299151' post='2462961'] I'm talking about fence sitters, or people who like GOONS. Did this massive wall of words change your mind to the anti-GOONS camp? Did it even make you reconsider your feelings toward us for a moment? [/quote] I thought about it. Still sitting my fence. It looks bad on the face of it, I won't deny that. The fact that you had a problem with controlling raiding in June seems undisputed by both parties. Rather, there is an argument that either you are incapable of change due to incompetence / that you have already changed but its not enough or you've changed this already and people are mudslinging by misrepresenting the past. Which is the same old GOONs hating thread. Bah. FnKa has 1 nation permitted to raid by our charter and even he made a mistake and raided a protected AA. That was 1 of 3 raids we have conducted since our reformation. Edit: Sort of lost my point: So no, I appreciate GOONs' sense of style, but don't expect me to emulate it. I happen to like my fence.

"Still, 1 major feudal system remained in place, the taxes." This statement is false. The concept of feudalism as proto-capitalistic is an invention of Marx; and a particular failing of Marx's adaptation of the Hegalian Dialectic, and socialist thought, like yours that relies on it. Rather, taxes pre-date feudalism by approximately 3000 years. (http://www.upenn.edu/almanac/v48/n28/AncientTaxes.html) They are not an instrument of a repressive form of government, rather they are the instrument that defines a government. You cannot have a government without taxes.

[quote name='potato' timestamp='1285251370' post='2462150'] This has nothing to do with morality. GOONS say "Don't aid Methrage while he's at war with us". People do it anyway, get caught and are punished. It's as simple as that. [/quote] I think peoples' argument over morality skirts the issue of the 'cult of sucess.' Namely, the spy operations the GOONS conduceted were justified ex post facto because they were correct. If they had accused someone who didn't do it, and conducted spy operations there would be the usual crowd bleating about how it was a violation of soverigenty and GOONS should be paying reps. Edit: Commas are evil.

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1285183447' post='2461232'] [img]http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/1715/b1c46a5c2bdf3256140d2db.gif[/img] [/quote] You forgot the part where you gave them the option of paying reps. Of all the excellent people to have gone rogue, why oh why do people insist on helping Methrage.

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1285015913' post='2459168'] Have you ever heard that you're a kind, thoughtful, person? Probably not [/quote] and I even included a helpful suggestion. The ingratitude.

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1284956850' post='2458715'] Legion breaking radio silence? It's about damned time I'm not the only person arguing on your behalf! [/quote] This explains a great deal. I cannot ignore the overlap between the particular failings of Legion and of yours. I think anyone looking on how to improve their alliance in the short term needs to take a look at RoK and their monthly re-evaluations.

I do hope ye will be at least offering to pay booty to FAR for this mess. edit: Saw the logs, good show I guess.

Congratulations Umbrella, ye be well respected and rightly so. Also good to see Bunchie again.

I don't think this is the standard the majority of people actually use, with a few well berated exceptions. Rather, I think its: "If you are going to lose, and you think your ally (or their ally/ally's ally, ect.) behaved like an total idiot and probably deserved it, you don't have to follow the treaty."

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1284700478' post='2456409'] how long until they get mass raided? Londo, I see you reading this! [/quote] It couldn't happen to nicer people.

Hooray for an enlightened jackbooted global despot? I'm not sure that has the same panache.

From a purely functionalist standpoint, there is no way to 'enforce' a treaty as binding to all parties. Hence, the social mores against not following a treaty functions as its attempted enforcement. Alliances, assuming perfect knowledge, will act in what is best for their own best interests, treaty be damned. If an alliance follows a treaty, its only beacause they feel its the best course of action. At the point in time a treaty is activated, each party decideds first if it is in their best interests, then constructs a nominally fact based argument to back it up. Lesson is, don't treaty with an alliance you doubt will share your interests, and re-evaluate often.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1284516395' post='2454253'] [color="#0000FF"]If someone wishes to try that they're more than welcome, although the precedent that would be established by allowing such an act is frightening. The same rational could be applied to protectorates, or any other protected AA for that matter.[/color] [/quote] Thats why people will do nothing besides bleat like sheeple, rather than risk a war where they are the aggressor.

[quote name='PhysicsJunky' timestamp='1284511430' post='2454144'] Our alliance rather comically belongs on this list. I'm pretty sure we meet the ungoverned criterion, it's whether we qualify as a conditional protectorate or not that's questionable. [/quote] If Créole needs protection, than the rest of us need to seriously re-evaluate. And try not to feel insufficient when comparing Avg. NS.