Mozaffar

AnIt would seem to me that the NPO never had a problem beginning the practice, surely they will see it as fair when it is done against them. I don't really think that an excuse is necessary, considering the NPO has made it abundantly clear over the last few years that they have this coming. On-topic - The NPO never let an opportunity to make fun of another alliance with loads of members in peace mode pass by, now that the NPO is in that situation it's only to be expected that they are ridiculed. I approve of this thread.

Ze New Sith Order

I'd say the reason to stop the treaty would have been that the actions of the Hegemony were wrong, imposing reparations ten times more heavy then the reparations IRON members and sympathizers are complaining about, imposing bulk amounts of EZI/PZI sentences almost impossible to escape (trust me, I tried) and the intimidation of alliances and nations that the Hegemony disagreed with. Or is this something completely acceptable to IRON? IRON could have tried to distance themselves from this behaviour but never did joining in on the reigning attitude in the Hegemony for people to do something about it.

IRON could have always severed ties in time for this conflict. If IRON had a shred of decency it could have severed ties when it could no longer agree with the means of the Hegemony. IRON was hardly a small partner that could be intimidated into staying either. Remember that IRON had these treaties and could have always cancelled them in the run-up to this conflict. IRON had a very long time to sever ties with the NPO and other Hegemony alliances, where other alliances did just that your alliance chose to stick with them.

Yes and a number of alliances took steps to sever ties when IRON sticked with it and only began to voice criticism against the way the Hegemony has acted when the Hegemony was in the process of being destroyed. Where a number of former-Hegemony alliances have taken steps to destroy it (through this war) IRON has continued to protect the Hegemony hoping to maintain the status quo ante bellum. I hope you do understand that one of the reasons that people post these disclaimers is because of the Hegemony you have fought to protect.

Congrats to our allies in the Liquor Cabinet for this milestone, let's hope the first of many to come. o/ tLC o/ Frostbite

Good to see this guys, I was more or less waiting for this bloc and now it's become reality. o/ STA o/ tLC o/ NpO o/ NSO

Reparations is just one of the ways to punish an alliance, nothing wrong with it unless it is out of proportion with what is being punished. IRON has played a key role in the Hegemony for a long time, they deserve this and in my humble opinion more. But hey it's a start, I'm happy reps are being paid at all.

Thanks RoK, probably if it wasn't for you guys IRON would have a white peace and you would still have Hegemony fans bawwwing over how Karma is evil and should pay IRON reps for the damage they have caused.

Congrats Vox, mission accomplished and on top of that all TPF never wanted to attack you guys and doesn't have any ZI lists! This Hegemony has been getting real nice since they stopped being the Hegemony. I guess even after losing might, they still stick to their "might makes right" doctrine, now they happen to agree with Karma that EZI is wrong. If this is the last Vox thread, why not make it a proper one. o/ Vox Populi

Posts like this one makes me hope that Karma will still PZI key members of the Hegemony. If only because so many of it's members are now suddenly so very conveniently condemning it after having supported it for a long time. Yes opinions can differ, but let's face it when your fighting on the Hegemony side you obviously don't find the banning of PZI all that important. I'd say it's obvious they want to escape any sort of harsh treatment and I feel that they shouldn't get their way. I think we should make an exception on the no PZI thing when it comes to the people flip-flopping on it, who only appear to support it when carried out by the Hegemony.

Nah the debate isn't if there will be a new hegemonic bloc (there won't for at least some time) the question is how will they be composed. I'm up for some surprises, the power balance has completely changed and will be drastically different once this is over. I'd say that every alliance will have to re-evaluate every treaty they have, which might result in some interesting changes.

Gotta give it up for you, it takes gut to make an OP which is one big assumption, then accuse others of making assumptions. Stop acting like your the big authority who knows exactly what will happen after this war. If this war does anything it shows that everyone can be held responsible for what they do even the strongest alliances in this game. With this Hegemony gone, maybe there is a little bit more competition again, instead of "what alliance will be next on NPO's curbstomp list" Conveniently ignoring NpO and MK. Plus Vox and FAN having been kept in perpetual war for years. As has been argued about before the reason that \m/ folded was more due to leadership and determination then the harsh terms they were presented, ironically the person who made up those harsh terms is the very person giving an example on how to deal with that (together with FAN, congrats guys). I guess ignoring harsh terms works as well?

-double post-

Hmmm, my memory must be messing with me, I just totally forgot about Sponge imposing viceroys for like a year on alliances, getting alliances to pay heavy reperations for basically just honoring treaty obligations, going to war for minor infractions of (heavy) surrender terms, engaging in alliances in perpetual wars and keeping scores of people on PZI. Yeah Sponge is completely as bad as the NPO (if not worse) and we are all hypocrites for questioning the benevolent NPO.

Looking forward to whatever your up to FAN.

The terms having been given to GGA, MCXA and Valhalla being substantial? Maybe for GGA and even then just barely. I'd say it's not important to if the old Hegemony will return to power, other factors are. However at least it does inflict some justice, I can't say I've been seriously wronged by these alliances, but others have been and at this one moment where there is an opportunity for at least some compensation for past reparations and the participation in this conflict it should be used. Let's face it, I don't see GGA making an announcement in a month saying "the noCB War was wrong, here have some free tech". Another point, and a more intresting one you've been hinting at is to what extent this matters in practice. Not that much, the foreign policy choices of individual alliances will decide the post-war situation. Considering neither the Hegemony nor Karma can be expected to last past the end of this conflict you can expect a multipolar world after this, how different alliances adapt to this is far more important then any reparations. NPO could have crushing terms yet manage to adapt to a new world better then Karma and still make it out on top. Their people have the capabilities to do this. They could have a white peace yet prove to be unable to cope with a changed world and a changed NPO and fall apart. Neither I consider extremely unlikely. The fact that you have had class-3 alliances pay reparations where class-2 alliances got away with white peace is wrong. I'm tempted to say the class-3 alliances have brought it on themselves by signing treaties with alliances that had no problems with imposing such terms on others however what prevails is that it's simply extortion and that we should get rid of it. Regardless a piece of advice, in the future be more careful with the treaties you sign in the future. And let's make sure that those class-2 alliances still in conflict will get some serious terms. I know my own alliance did a white peace, but Molon Labe certainly didn't deserve harsh reparations and all of this is hardly NSO's fight.

Vulturing? You mean the OP suggesting former Soldier members to come to TSI, IRAN, etc.?

I remember having served in the GPW alongside you (as Suid-Afrika) and I gotta say I'm dissappointed to see you leave just as this game is getting interesting again. Regardless, I can tell from experience that this decision is not made out of cowardice so good luck with your future endeavors.

It has been a good fight, and I'm glad to see peace come. I hope interactions between Molon Labe and the NSO will be on more friendly terms in the future as I think we have only gained respect for ML through this conflict.

I'm glad that finally the Hegemony is seeing just why their past actions are so wrong and why this war is necessary. I have seen so many of it's members change in a matter of weeks if not days, from justifying PZI to condemning it, from supporting GATO being a viceroyalty (until very recently) to condemning the practice and I think that this war has shown them the light.

Describing the terms demanded by Karma (and other alliances on their side) in previous surrender deals and what top-level officials want to offer in future ones are very, very lenient. It is subjective, because ones lenient terms are harsh to others, in particular many nations on the Hegemony side (or with sympathies to that side) who in the past hailed some of the most harshest terms in history and now suddenly complain about reparations being harsh. Unless of course you are the ultimate moral authority on surrender terms and you get to decide what is harsh and what is lenient, in which case I apologize.

Yes, that is how these things work. You have a certain precedent having been set in the past years on what are considered harsh surrender terms (disbandment, viceroys, EZI, etc. etc.) and in comparison other surrender/peace terms which were more lenient. In the end, it's subjective on what it is fair and what is harsh. edit: To me it's pretty clear though, I know that even if NPO has to pay a symbolic 1 tech as reparations these pepsi/coca cola sig people will still complain about how karma is the new hegemony.

The bare minimum when it comes to the peace terms ought to be the ending of the Moldavi/Revenge doctrines, straight up no more PZI or EZI, the current ZI list to be completely emptied, and peace for Vox and FAN. I would not mind harsher terms, which include the return of reparations previously payed by alliances to the NPO and maybe a single trip to ZI for NPO leadership (though no permanent listing). I would say similar terms for the other Q/1V. White peace for alliances that joined in because of treaties, as has pretty much been practice. I generally think these terms are relatively lenient and fair and probably more or less what is going to happen. I'm not even going to think in terms of viceroys, oaths or forced disbandments although punishment has to be given and I laugh at the crowd that yells that anything but white peace means that Karma is EXACTLY the same as the Hegemony.

I thought the "Hegemony = Karma" propaganda had become pretty ridiculous after Karma has been handing out lenient peace terms to surrendering alliances and individual nations. And in this case it's also based on nothing, individual members of Karma taunting the NPO for having nations in peace mode, and contradicting it's own policies is something different then sentencing people to PZI over it. But I guess some people will just continue to see what they want to see, and be blind for the rest. In the case of some alliances and their members really nothing has changed since before this war.