Bordiga

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1340002533' post='2987444'] It's more because of the usual rhetoric from Int that indicates some sort of hatred of Nordreich. "Nordreich delenda est" and whatnot. [/quote] I'm also sure that LSF considers it senseless to lead its other allies to destruction if its most powerful ally won't even bother to assist them.

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1340001354' post='2987414'] Go for it man. [/quote] Touchy touchy!

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1340001099' post='2987408'] I honestly don't recall. Furthermore, I have a treaty with INT, not NEAT. [/quote] Don't worry, we will remember.

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1340000880' post='2987405'] Such a pity. [/quote] Have we met? All I seem to remember about you was that you felt it was pertinent to insult the International's allies, NEAT, after they insisted on protecting their protectorate. That was a classy episode in bloc solidarity too.

I don't have anything new to add to this topic, because Schattetenmanatan already said everything that I could ever say, but better. Let's just say this isn't the first time that the comrades of the International have been found lacking in the principles department.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1339928521' post='2986388'] So you're going to wait six months for NoR's allies to progressively drop them and then for TPF to attack them to do anything? I mean, that's how it looks like right now anyway. [/quote] So damn funny.

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1339759951' post='2984742'] I don't know what thread you're reading, but that wasn't NoV graciously ending the war with LSF. That was CPCN giving their protection to LSF due to NoV being unable to really maintain a war against them anymore. Kingzog was keenly aware, as many of us were, of the ineptitude rife within LSF regardless of any reprieve they may have found. Hence his statement. [/quote] "Graciously" marked out for sarcasm. What it was, was the end of the war with LSF. I was around and know what happened. LSF's alleged "ineptitude" had nothing to do with your extermination attempt and has nothing to do with the current war. EDIT: I got a good laugh at the tone of a certain Norden Verein foreign affairs thug in that thread. So many tears that they couldn't continue their genocidal war against LSF. Every time someone gets their just desserts I react that way... Thanks for reminding me of that happy time.

[quote name='raasaa' timestamp='1339757346' post='2984723'] This was predicted a long time back by Kingzog http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=25335&view=findpost&p=667484 [/quote] The funny thing about the post you linked to is that Norden Verein was "graciously" announcing an end to their years long war of forced disbandment against LSF. Which by the way provides the never-ending casus belli that LSF has against Norden Verein and its inheritors. That Kingzog was so warped in his view to see LSF pursuing some eventual revenge as them "screwing up" is just a reflection of his side of the red button.

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1339697534' post='2983727'] Not similar at all. The fact is that they are the ones bringing in hatred, who simply are not willing to co-exist with 'our kind' - they are the ones that split us into kinds and dehumanise 'my kind' all before a single word is exchanged. Their prejudice and hatred has brought their destruction upon them and this is simple justice. I will not allow for moral equivelance where I know for a fact none exists. No? CSN nations nuked a nation under their protection, after being told of the protection. That's a CB. What makes it questionable, of course, is that MK accepted that nation knowing it was at war with CSN. That was a CB too. In retrospect, CSN would have been more wise to call off the attacks on the single nation - and if they felt it necessary, bring SF up to full alert and hit MK for it when they were ready. But instead they continued the attacks. Then there is the whole question of whether their ZI order was well founded to begin with. All kinds of issues there to argue, without needing to even consider the relative NS involved. [/quote] Someone who wants to make an argument out of MK's actions can. Someone wanting to get to the bottom of it and not defend them wouldn't. I think it's pretty clear on this issue that you are biased about the "moral equivalence" of LSF versus the various fascist-themed alliances. Your examples draw from your personal experience. Lots of rhetoric in there. And my knowledge and experience means I don't agree with you. NordReich or NordenVerein were never destroyed by any left alliance, unlike SWF and ICP. LSF would have been destroyed too if it hadn't been for their determination.

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1339695764' post='2983668'] One last bit to add, hi bordiga I dont agree they are all that similar. MKs case is at least arguable. LSF has no leg to stand on at all. The difference in power/prestige between them is immense and I wont deny that affects how people react as well, but that is far from the only difference in the situations. [/quote] Hi Sigrun. Sounds like you have had some bad experiences with the LSF in the deep past. Similar to those the LSF has had with the very same people currently in NordReich. I don't agree that MK has an arguable case. It is established that wars today are planned in advance, even if they may take place after finding some excuse to act upon. The extremely small pretext used to justify a war is largely irrelevant. LSF clearly didn't really bother with that, except obviously that they did provoke an attack, rather than launching one entirely of their own. But I don't see any difference, aside from what I already pointed out.

[quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1339695201' post='2983652'] What a beautiful demonstration of the inanity of the treaty web. Of course it's fine when it stifles any political movement and allows everyone on the majority side to feel like they're on top. And as long as you don't mind being a satellite AA, it works well enough for when the actual powers decide they want a war. But god forbid the wrong alliance decides to have an agenda. This messes up everything! [/quote] Ding ding ding!

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1339693405' post='2983592'] The key distinction between the two examples is when Umbrella were contacted by NoR about the incident, Umbrella accepted responsibility and worked with NoR to find a solution. Whereas with LSF, NoR received a full blown denial of any actions or wrong-doing... It was only after this fact that NoR rolled out the tanks. Under those circumstances, I don't think anyone in this game who can fault NoR for retaliating. I would have reacted similarly and I imagine the vast majority of people would have did the same. Lastly, this whole narrative that LSF is embroiled in some noble struggle preempted by "fascist" aggressors is nothing more then propaganda piece designed to try and galvanize some support and reignite that ancient Left vs Right struggle. Because LSF is stubbornly entrenched in reliving the past for whatever reason. [/quote] To repeat what I just said, the point is not that umbrella used "diplomacy" compared to LSF's desire for war. That's just silly. The legitimate comparison is between two alliances which actually do similar things, eg. MK right now and LSF; as in, attacking without a CB because they want to. The point is really that CN does not care about justifications for wars anymore, unfortunately, so that this is indeed just about might makes right. Whinging about LSF doing what it wants in pursuit of its objectives if you can't react in the same way to MK doing so is clearly just hypocrisy. I'm more inclined to agree with LSF that the politics of many of the inhabitants of NordReich are likely fascist. There are plenty of members of NordReich from the previous incarnations and as anyone can see they blatantly stylize themselves after a certain fascist dictatorship. Many of the current members and government of NordReich were responsible for the crusade against LSF which some might want to just laugh about as years ago, but which held LSF at war for years. My own alliance recently went to war on the basis of revenge for the destruction of our past incarnation. Frankly, the idea that ideological enmity and real grievances don't provide LSF with enough reason to attack NordReich is fanciful. And given the fact that most wars start for no reason at all, better than what I've come to expect from CN.

I'm pretty sure that White Chocolate's point is not that Umbrella came to an agreement with NordReich as opposed to what LSF did. It is that the same situation occurs all the time with different alliances, but who are allowed to get away with it due to their political/military standing. Like, for example, is happening right now with MK. Or every other recent big war. Quite frankly I dislike both NordReich and CSN. But allies are allies are allies are allies.

[quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1339633342' post='2982281'] It's because we're better This is a stupid pairing, and we should be ashamed. [/quote] This is my actual, frank opinion. I like Invicta, but CSN? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

[quote name='longnameislonger' timestamp='1338785070' post='2976796'] CAN IT BORDIGA we can't stand you either. [/quote] Doin it right.

If Non Grata dislikes you, you know you have made it in CN. Congratulations to 3 years NEAT!

Glad to be allied to such a solid alliance. Best of luck for the future NAC.

Congratulations to our dear allies in NEAT. SWF must be good people.

Congratulations to the new government and Learz in particular.

This does seem to not fit in with the ideal of Arizona.

Congratulations to all alliances involved in this enterprise, particularly NEAT. People should stop making out that there is a contradiction or moral problem between communism and christianity. Both teach similar moral precepts- look out for the poor and needy, strive for peace before war, greed is bad, and so on. Christians who actually follow the teachings of Jesus would find more in common with a communist than with a conservative. And communists themselves should not be hostile to religion, unless they are seeking to establish a totalitarian police state that requires a monopoly on people's faith. As Marx said; [i]Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.[/i]

While I could just generalise about all the alliances out there I wll just stick with the ones I have fought. Most likely no one will ever see this way back here on the 11th page anyway. In chronological order: Crimson Sun Empire: [b](3)[/b] Very young alliance, pretty weak until their friends were called in. Tinpot dictator Pironious totally incompetent also. Black November: [b](5)[/b] Also a young alliance, definitely better than CSE due to seeing themselves as militaristic, but not much by modern standards I would say. Avenguard Crusade: [b](5)[/b] Mostly ex-CSE members, with a bit more experience by this stage, but still not much of a threat. FOK!Alliance: [b](8)[/b] Militarily very competent, pity about the rest. Viridian Entente: [b](6)[/b] Reasonably coordinated, lower tiers who fought against us however were pretty easy pickings. Andromeda: [b](5)[/b] I can't remember anything except that their leader was not bad at war, despite being many other things. Democratic Republic of Argonaut: [b](5)[/b] Not much chop, little on the blaise side of things, lots of members but not much else. Confederation of Imperial States: [b](4)[/b] Supposedly they were at war with us. Global Order of Darkness: [b](8)[/b] Definitely the strongest military I have fought, warchests were the highest I've dealth with (which might not be saying much). Too bad about Xiphosis being a scumbag. United Blue Directorate: [b](2)[/b] Two days of war seemed like a leisurely stroll. I think my opponent had a warchest 1/10th of my size, and the average was only a few hundred million. And this was in the mid-upper tiers where we fought. While I have fought in a few wars, I don't think I have the best understanding due to the gap between wars. I have fought a few decently influential alliances; VE, FOK, GOD but the rest are only important for very few left I would say. I also fought NPO, Old Guard, ODN and The Righteous Fist when they were all slaves to power (unlike now! ), but I can't recall the difference between the combatants so I have left them out.

I'm not even allied to DT, but it seems pretty silly for people to make any kind of big deal about them receiving back the technology that was taken from them. DT seem stand-up people from their posts in public forums. I seriously doubt that they support extorting reparations as a general principle. But defeating an opponent who extorted you, and then asking for your stolen goods to be returned, hardly seems a negation of those principles. Maybe for those who have no idea that actions have a context and do not all equate to equal value simply because on the surface they are similar there can be confusion.

Good to see Xiphosis surrender. Thanks to everyone who made this possible.

I gained a slight liking for FAN due to their tenacity against the NPO while I was in Vox Populi and due to the diplomatic efforts of a member of yours while I was in NONE. But I really do not understand why you think your recent course of action is worthwhile. Not that I'm entitled to by any means, but you should at least know you aren't winning me over with these kind of obscure announcements.