Monty of the Herm

So greco... You now see how it felt when I was driven from TE a couple of rounds ago for not being willing to play on the terms of the hegemony here in TE's raiding policies (I do not, and never have included NDO in that term). I chose to just quit because it wasn't worth my time then. When I pointed that out in another thread you personally apologized to me for the heinous behavior of the people so "nobly" defending you now. How exactly do you go from apologizing on their behalf to me and now claim they're the high and mighty can do no wrong players in TE? Now we're here in numbers and when we point out the utter hypocrisy of the TE hegemony all we get is we're the bad guys because we continue to fight a war that neither side has come to terms to end yet? Come on I know you're better than that.... Edit for grammar.

To be clear he really doesn't know what he's asking for to have Caladin couped in Eurasia. If other leadership within the AA took over for Caladin we would be even more hardline than we are at the moment. Caladin is rather tame compared to other leadership within the AA.

Looks like my comparison to pre-Karma behavior in SE is spot on. LOL.

I keep referencing it in terms of a power issue because we keep being told we're violating an unwritten agreement between a few preexisting AAs in TE which we're being told we have to abide by as well. That's a powerbase dictating how another entity in the game has to play or they get crushed, I'm simply pointing out how the power base's agreement is utterly hypocritical to other condoned practices by the same power base, and all I'm trying to get them to do is either change their other practices to reflect their agreements among themselves or to just play as the beasts they all are with no veneer of morality. As it just so happens NDO ended up being in the middle of the entire mess/debate, I have nothing against NDO specifically I have too short a history here for that, and I only have really one real beef with a specific AA within the powerbase dictating to us now personally from my previous experience a few rounds ago.

And that's the problem. Simply because we joined TE this round and stirred the pot a bit by apparently violating unwritten agreements most of us were completely oblivious to and then we bring up real issues in TE which are far worse than what we did all that people do is quit the discussion because they can't handle the fact that the real issues that need to be dealt with aren't what we've done so far in this round and would upset the power structure within Steve. Or at the very least make people take off the facade of moralism they've been trying to beat us over the head with.

And the truth comes out. The hegemony doesn't like being encroached upon so they have to bully the new kids on the block. Good to know have fun with that because we sure will. At least now your moralism is proven to be nothing but fear and paranoia of the unknown.

I think we need a Worlib viceroy! :P

That's not happening. It's pretty funny how you keep trying to create dissension in an entity you do not know. Shows your fear of the unknown more than anything else.

I don't exactly see how we should be apologetic for violating an unwritten rule of TE which we were only informed was an unwritten "gentlemen's agreement" after the fact. Add to that the fact that admittedly the AAs claiming the moral high ground and calling us the big bad meanies have condoned and raided smaller AAs on the same terms we attacked NDO. So to keep calling us out for violating an unwritten agreement in TE while not looking in the mirror at TE's own hypocrisy is rather disengenuous and really oblivious. Either get off the high horse and deal with a new reality or inact real change that could benefit TE long term. (To be clear I've been vocal about all this based on my personal experience and what I state is my personal opinion not official Eurasian policy or decrees).

I wasn't going to speak up at the time because I had other bigger responsibilities IC in SE which when I ran into that ridiculous treatment it wasn't worth my time to stick it out for the rest of the round in TE. We were trying to do something in TE on the side not get involved in the greater scope too much at the time, but their raiding policies wouldn't allow that. Now all I'm saying is you can't claim moral high ground when that's the policies the same AAs condone and endorse in terms of raiding smaller AAs who refuse to accept peace terms. When you give no quarter to smaller AAs how can you claim the moral high ground over a larger AA who violates an unwritten rule in TE about grace periods between wars? You can't unless you change one of the general policies to align with the other one otherwise it's completely hypocritical and two-faced and hence why I've been so vocal about it the last few days here, because having two-faced policies that benefit a select few in a game is cancerous, and can easily drive newer players from the game.

When I talk about hypocrisy and people being two-faced it's overall policies that multiple AAs within the "gentlemen's agreement" of TE share, it's not directed at a specific AA or NDO. They can be upset with the way they were attacked, but at the end of they day they have to deal with it regardless.

You really don't know who we are if you think we're just going to roll over because we're outnumbered in a fight. This ain't our first rodeo, and it really is child's play compared to what we've gone through in the past together.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as a new AA in TE how exactly do you expect us to recognize "the errors of this declaration" when the errors of this declaration are based on "unwritten rules of TE" which are only really understood by the long term players here who have struck a "gentlemen's agreement" which we were not privy to, and which is completely two-faced in that the same AAs who have this "gentlemen's agreement" also all have raiding policies which do the exact opposite of the agreement to micro AAs in TE who refuse to capitulate to their terms in how they want them to play TE? Good luck enforcing your secret society's unwritten rules when new players join TE in larger numbers.

And that's the utter hilarity I find in all these people trying to claim the moral high ground with their "gentlemen's agreements" or whatever. On one hand you claim that due to a "gentleman's agreement" in TE we're the big bad ebil for violating this "gentlemen's agreement", but at the same time I've been driven from the game when in smaller AAs in TE because I refused to play along with larger AA's raiding tactics and they rolled my nation into oblivion without showing me any mercy. The same AAs mind you who are trying to claim the moral high ground in this instance.

Well I can tell you from direct experience that it has been done. I was attacked in a smaller alliance with no mercy simply because I refused to play TE on the terms of the larger, more accepted alliance. At the time for that round it drove me to leave TE as a new player. Now because once again an alliance decides to not play within the terms the larger community has a buddy buddy deal Eurasia is made out to be the big bad alliance for playing on it's own terms and not by the conditions Steve tries to impose on us. I simply made the comparison to SE because the same exact actions drove players away from SE, and alliances who behaved in the way the TE community is now eventually got rolled for it. Forcing players to play on your terms has more potential to drive players away than to get them to stick around and play TE. You can't drive smaller fringe players from the game with such raiding policies, and then claim the moral high ground in this instance in the same breath it's a complete double standard to favor the privileged few in TE. Pacifica learned that lesson in SE, the TE community apparently needs to learn it now. Edit for grammar.

That's what I was referring to when I referred to them as a hegemony in the other thread.

And that's exactly why TE is flawed and why I called you all out on your complete double standards. According to you if you're on the fringes, not a significant player, and choose to not play on the hegemony in TE's terms then you get crushed into oblivion. If you're big and choose not to play by the hegemony in TE's "gentlemen's agreements" you get crushed into oblivion just the same. You know what happened in SE when Pacifica and her allies pulled those sort of stunts? They got rolled in Karma because Pacifica and her allies were allegedly driving people away from CN and not letting other players play CN on their terms. I never thought I'd see the day that I was the equivalent of FAN in any realm in CN, but I guess there's always a first for everything. CASUALTIEZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now this is two-faced as I've ever seen anything around here in a long time. There is no "gentlemen's agreement". I joined in a round of TE a few months back and joined a 6-8 member AA with some friends. The second my nation could be hit I was by a larger AA as a "raid" and sent a peace offer. I refused the peace offer because if you're going to DoW me we're going to fight. So we duked it out for a round, you know how many days they gave me to "recover" ZERO. I was immediately redeclared on the day after my wars expired and given no time to recover. There was no formal declaration there was no "gentlemen's agreement" it was cancerous to TE to do that to a new TE player figuring things out for the first time simply because I refused to war on the AA's raiding terms. I quit at the time because it was ridiculous how TE AA's couldn't play on any terms but their own. Now I hear about this two-faced "gentlemen's agreement" this round and it's utterly laughable because apparently these "gentlemen's agreements" only really exist for real players in TE, not for anyone figuring things out on their own on the fringes. TE AA's raiding policies are way more cancerous and fatal to the long-term success for TE than this war ever would be. Apparently everyone around here can only play TE on the terms they're comfortable with. Man up and deal with it. What's the point of playing TE if you're not going to fight?

I'm already in a March Madness bracket group OOC so I'm not really interested in doing another one.

For once Tywin you've posted something I pretty much agree with. The only addendum I would make to it is for anyone starting out in CN now it takes a whole lot longer to start to build into the upper tiers of the game than it did back before Karma. At this point right now I'm in the top 23% of nations in the game, but it has taken me almost six and a half years to build my nation to this point, and I think it's more due to attrition of players within the game than anything else. You can still build into the upper tier of CN, but it just takes a lot longer and a lot more patience than it did in the early years.

We had the same experience in Karma and the DH/NPO War.

That was my main point there hasn't been anything to really break the stagnation in CN since Karma. Because with Karma there was a dynamic in the game that fueled a crusade to attempt to break the status quo, but in the end it didn't really achieve that long term.

The treaty web and all it entails came as a direct result of Karma and it's aftermath it was the "brave new world" Karma created, and as far as I'm concerned it's just become a new form of stagnation hence why I would completely agree with Van Hoo III here: As a result CN is now less than a third the size in terms of number of players. Just in terms of the Order, Pacifica had over 1000 members pre-Karma, and we've steadily declined in membership to where now we're down to just over 300 members, and that sort of decline has occured across all of Bob. I think largely due to the stagnation the "brave new world" of a treaty web Karma created.

I agree there is a price everyone pays when they go to war, but Pacifica has been held to account for past actions pre-Karma on a regular basis ever since the dust settled from Karma. This guy is saying everyone who benefitted from those actions by Pacifica before Karma and anyone there after has to as well means by extension you, as well as anyone else who benefitted from our actions whether they were in Pacifica at the time or not, have to pay for the unfair advantages we all allegedly gained from in our time in Pacifica as well both past and present. It's utterly ridiculous.

This has to be a joke right? We've paid several times over for our actions before Karma. We paid in the Karma War, we paid in the reparations that followed (we paid out 120% of our pre-war NS solely in tech reparations), we paid in the DH War when DH and FAN preempted us, we paid in the Grudge War when FAN preempted us again with Fark's support, we paid again in Disorder when, partially, Polar had to clean the slate of bad blood held over from the break between the Orders pre-Karma. I joined Pacifica seven months before Karma, and I've been paying for the deeds of my forebears ever since. Did I fight a single FAN nation in the VietFAN War before Karma? Yes I did. And I've never been able to grow my nation beyond 72k NS ever since, in large part, due to the fact that we have had to continue to pay in blood in several wars for the actions of our forebears pre-Karma. But despite all of that we're still the "oppressors" and ebil. At this point to force Pacificans who had nothing to do with those actions in our past, and who have not benefited from those actions from over half a decade ago is cruel and would kill CN faster than it already is in decline. You say that Pacificans still have to pay for their "oppression" of others. Well you know what? Invicta's worked with us in said "oppression" as a direct ally, as well as alongside us on Red for years not to mention the fact that several members of Invicta are former Pacificans who benefited from Pacifican "oppression" of others, rotty, King William, Infopowerbroker, and Contra to name a few. By extension they all have to pay for benefitting from Pacifican "oppression". Former Pacificans who benefitted from Pacifican "oppression" are spread all over Planet Bob from Invicta to TOP and Polar, and Kashmir, and MI6 and IRON just to name a few, and there were even former Pacificans in FAN. By your logic they all have to pay since they all benefitted from the injustice of Pacifican "oppression" at some point. But in the end yes we're ebil so continue to shake in your boots.