Sakura

So... you ghost IRON, they threaten you with (justified) force, you then declare war on an IRON nation and then you come here asking for help, in a war you started yourself. I sense a pattern of bad decisions here, and not on the part of IRON.

I doubt it. Right now nothing really stops people from forming an alliance with the same AA, or for that matter, acronym, as an alliance which was once around. In terms of game mechanics, anyway. Politically... well, that's another story.

On the one hand, had the system been in place when my current alliance came back, it would have been a lot harder for us to. On the other hand, systems like this are fairly commonplace, including in other games I've played. I think the least chaotic means to handle the transition would be to switch everyone (or just those not currently at war) into PM at the same time the change goes live, and let them switch back out without collecting first that once.

What the...? What are you trying to do, Facepalm Part II?

It's 24 hours+however many minutes to the next full hour. Whether a war is declared at 00:01 12/01 or at 00:59 12/01, you still have to wait until 01:00 12/02 to nuke. 12/1/2011 12:18:55 AM 12/1/2011 12:05:19 AM Which judging by these timestamps... disables nukes until 01:00 CN time.

[url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_map.asp?Nation_ID=279161]誰が「二流」です？[/url] [spoiler]Who are you calling 'second rate'?[/spoiler]

Since you say you still have Chrome, it's simple: Open Chrome, open preferences, select "personal stuff", "manage stored passwords" and from there press "show".

This sounds... [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Solitude]familiar[/url] somehow....

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317290347' post='2811492'] No, someone earlier accused them of not negotiating when it is clear from the logs they tried and that NG was not interested. You really do have an issue with comprehension. [/quote] I don't think I accused anyone of not negotiating? I can think of... *more interesting* things that NG could have done.... (And that PC likely would have.) In the mean time...

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317282909' post='2811450'] So not so much a negotiation but an ultimatum? I don't have a problem with an ultimatum if the monies demanded are fair and reasonable, my point was that it was hardly a negotiation so ridiculing UPN for not negotiating is nonsense. [/quote] I'm ridiculing them for not paying low (given the circumstances) reps. 30m when your MoD does something *that stupid*? Bargain. [quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317283174' post='2811452'] If he was doing cruise missiles and bombing runs everyday despite the defending nation not responding or having any tanks or aircrafts to destroy, then maybe the reps would be closer to the damage done and his attacks might of been more than just a tech raid. I still haven't seen anything to show that to be the case though, considering Non Grata hasn't made that claim and how easily they could prove it with damage reports, I doubt they were hit with full attacks every day despite not resisting. [/quote] Neither of us knows the actual starting figures -- unless NG/the VL nation feels like posting the battle reports, I doubt we ever will. I just don't think the numbers are consistent with just GAs, though.

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1317281869' post='2811434'] That amount could of been just from ground attacks and his loss of troops accounting for some of the NS strength loss. When he buys back his troops after he becomes active he easily bounces back above his initial NS again without even buying any planes, tanks or cruise missiles. [/quote] Based on the defending nation's total casualties over time, at most they had 280 NS in soldiers. More likely less. Also, based on the nation's current trades, when they bought the 400 infra, they spent around 23 million. That's just one. (Unless they didn't build factories when they built the infra -- in which case, they spent... almost 40 million). Also, this is only using one to do the calculations with -- the UPN MoD raided two in VL. [quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317281919' post='2811436'] Yet, another NG source calcuated it at 15 million and doubled it because the offender was in government. Unless I read that statement incorrectly? Sticking to a price and not budging is actually not negotiating by its very nature. So, it appears it is not only my comments you struggle to comprehend. You'll also notice I have not said NG should have negotiated just that an earlier comment ridiculing UPN for not negotiating when it was made clear no negotiation was to be entered into was a contradiction. But, I'm sure you'll slide past this to go on and on about what I haven't said. Seems to be quite the fad tonight. [/quote] Well, I think it was more like "negotiation" in the sense of "negotiating whether or not UPN gets (justifiably) curb stomped".

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317280313' post='2811409'] I'm not sure if you misunderstood my comment or I am misunderstanding your reply. But, my comment was that I thought it improbable that raids on two nations at 20K and 30K NS repectively would only yield damage equal to or less than 3 million. In other words, I find the 3 million figure is probably much too low but I also think 30 million is too much. Hence me being "neither here nor there" on this issue. [/quote] I was basing my figures off of [url=http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display_charts.asp?Nation_ID=394412]this chart[/url], taking the starting point of 21,068 NS, then four days later 19,774 NS, (a difference of 1,294 NS). From there, assuming 6 tech lost per GA/day, over four days, 48 tech -- or 240 NS. That leaves 1054 NS that comes from infra, land, and tech lost to *other sources*. Or, if I simply divide that by 3, around 350 infra. (Probably a bit less -- so let's say 320.) Four days of GAs would do around 192 infra damage. Which leaves around 478 unaccounted for NS. Which the most likely source for -- would be from attacks using weapons *other* than GAs. That, coupled with the raider *not doing research beyond bios* (because a search for VL on either Wikia or these very forums would have found the protection status), and *being a high level government official* makes 30m seem too low.

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1317280107' post='2811400'] So at least in agree in something, I think the MoD in question who made this stupid raid should step up and offer some kind of additional reparation to NG and to the nations him raided, but something that was proportional to the crime, however NG wasn't willing to negotiate so any kind of negotiation would be impossible. So the only options left was take a stand and keep some respect, the most valuable thing that us, alliances who are isolated in treaty web have, or bend over. And when you bend over the first time nothing will prevent you to bend over always. [/quote] 30m+90m? That's what I'd consider reasonable given what I can see from the NS charts of one of the two. (Can't really tell from the other one's NS chart how things went.)

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1317279163' post='2811370'] I'm neither here nor there on this one. Raiding aligned nations is always a risk and when you trip a mine you pay up reps, usually above to odds. I also have trouble believing a raid on a 20K and a 30K nation did only 3 million in damages but without the reports to calculate anything from it is just my opinion based on experience. On the other hand it was made clear to UPN that 30 million was the lowest offer and that not accepting it meant war. This was a little high-handed and a contradiction of some of the rhetoric here about UPN not negotiating. It is tough to negotiate with someone not interested in negotiation. But, as with most things these days this appears to be another "foot-in-the-door" opportunity to have a crack as another couple of alliances by the usual suspects. Have fun guys. [/quote] I did a quick (with my discounts on infra) estimate on the damage done to the one that's been at war for four days, and the total is well over 3m. [quote name='D34th' timestamp='1317279169' post='2811371'] I'm not supporting tech raid and I acknowledge that what UPN did was stupid, but they also acknowledged that were willing to pay a fair and reasonable reparation for the stupidity of one of their members, but I can't support extortion, I'm sure that if it had happened with an alliance in a better political position NG would have agree in at least talk about the value instead of imposing it. I believe the punishment should be proportional to the fault, not overwhelm it. The lack of reasonableness is what make doesn't agree with NG decision.[/quote] I'd consider 30m cheap considering the circumstances. Especially since (as I said earlier), the NS losses on one of the two aren't consistent with GAs. They're more consistent with GAs+bombers and CMs. If NG had asked for 300m, then I'd say it would be extortion. But 30m for that? Not even close. Plus, throw in that it was the *minister of defense* & that they didn't properly research the raid, I would say that 30m is actually too little.

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1317275960' post='2811262'] Personally, I think the amount asked for was unimportant, insignificant and not that unreasonable but it is not my cash. Reps are one of the most boring parts of the whole process. I would pay 30 million myself to avert someone like UPN being the spark for what will follow now. I don't condone raiding, I don't do it and personally if you trip the switch you should expect to pay for the mistake. This is not however about 30 million now is it? UPN are currently allied to us, they have been attacked. So where does that leave their allies? [/quote] Well, if you're sensible... you let them get beaten to a pulp and then help UPN rebuild in a week or two. If you're not, then NpO get's flattened. Again. Any way you look at it -- UPN's MoD messed up. Which got them in trouble. [quote name='Seerow' timestamp='1317276329' post='2811277'] From you personally? Given your track record I'd expect blasting them for being evil tech raiders and call for a crusade to wipe their scourge from the face of Bob, treaty or no. From your alliance as a whole? Instead of trying to defend UPN as somehow being justified by magical non-working inflation theory, just admit "Yeah UPN $%&@ed up but we support them anyway". Either way, the current actions of NpO are hardly what I'd consider the actions of someone "morally superior to nearly this entire toilet bowl of a planet." In fact, the actions are very eerily as filled with double standards and a general lack of morality as any other alliance on the planet. Not the shining beacon of morality for the world you wish to portray. [/quote] So true. Just... so true.

[quote name='Dexomega' timestamp='1317274003' post='2811167'] We never explicitly said we would ONLY pay 3 million. It was a counter offer, one taken out of context. And then within a few hours they declare war on us. If this were, oh I dunno, happening to NG, people would be !@#$%*ing incessantly. On a tangentially related note, indefinitely protected AAs are becoming a bane of CN's existence. [/quote] I like VL, though. Partly because I named it. Also, 3m is never a good counter offer at 30k NS -- *or* when the one doing the raid is your alliance's MoD. [quote name='Quiziotle' timestamp='1317274561' post='2811198'] Dobs2504, I feel it would be prudent for you to review the [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNJ6nCMCSWE]UPN's guide to tech-raiding[/url]. If only you had known to "...repect your alliances tech raiding policy", this entire war could have been averted. [/quote] .... I only watched a minute of that... Seriously? CMs? Bombers? I thought people said GOONS were bad. >_> [quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1317275345' post='2811234'] The cost for those nations to rebuy the infra is roughly in the 500-800 thousand per 10 infra range. 4 days worth of attacks, 8 GAs, 160 infra, that's around 10 mill in infra costs. Do people not know how to use a search button? A search of these boards yields several results that clearly say it is protected, including this one: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=103705 . A search of the wikis should lead you to the same thing. [/quote] I see (estimated) well over 300 infra damage on wahoo6692 -- that is not consistent with 1k tech and GAs for four days. That is more consistent with use of what is commonly regarded as 'bad raiding practices'. Namely CMs, bombers, etc. Based on that... I'd say that if *anything* NG was being generous.

[quote name='Llanowar Elf' timestamp='1317270761' post='2810958'] It may be on NG's wiki, but where is there own AA's wiki? How is someone supposed to automatically know that there is an agreement out there, when there is no official wiki for the AA in question? Are they supposed to go through every single thread in the OWF? There MoD, checked to see if there was a wiki. There was none. He then checked there bios, nothing. What more does one do? Pm the nation asking if it is ok for them to be tech raided? [/quote] Not every protectorate has (or needs) a wiki. You look around. I would have found the protection. And I would not have raided them. Also, Venomous Larvae *does* have a wiki (a redirect to the Poison Clan article), which *in turn* links to the merged NG, which *clearly* lists VL as a protectorate. And *did* at the time the raid happened. [quote name='Stewie' timestamp='1317271659' post='2811038'] erm.. Hate to tell you... http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Venomous_Larvae 05:33 <~KingXander> <Dobs2504[UPN]> I didn't know that it had a protectorate with you 05:33 <~KingXander> <Dobs2504[UPN]> check their bio 05:33 <~KingXander> <Dobs2504[UPN]> none of them had non-grata event mentioned there 05:33 <~KingXander> <Dobs2504[UPN]> so how was I to know? 05:33 <~KingXander> <KingXander> have you never raided before? 05:33 <~KingXander> <KingXander> you can't just check bios 05:33 <~KingXander> <Dobs2504[UPN]> I hv 05:33 <~KingXander> <KingXander> you have to check forums and wiki page too 05:33 <~KingXander> <Dobs2504[UPN]> generally that is the practice 05:33 <~KingXander> <KingXander> there's a plethora of information available to you, far too much for you to be ignorant 05:33 <~KingXander> <Dobs2504[UPN]> you can't expect me to check d wiki page for 200 alliance 05:33 <~KingXander> <KingXander> sure i can 05:33 <~KingXander> <KingXander> its the same !@#$%^&* i have to go through when i want to raid 05:33 <~KingXander> <Dobs2504[UPN]> yeah right 05:33 <~KingXander> <Dobs2504[UPN]> I tried to reason with you 05:33 <~KingXander> <Dobs2504[UPN]> if that is beyond then I can't help I call that just being plain lazy personally. [/quote] They call *that* a MoD? Seriously? I would have found the protectorate within three minutes. Even if I didn't know about it before hand. (Didn't even take *two* minutes).

Welcome to the pink team. [spoiler][Team: Pink (Since 11/13/2008)] Edit: Nation Created: 11/13/2008 5:44:54 PM (1,038 days old) [/spoiler]

Your tax rate is too low. There is absolutely no point in going lower than 28%. Second, your trades look to be pretty random with minimal thought behind them. (Points for not overlapping resources, though.) Moving on, peace mode *really* hurts your income. If you're not ghosting your current alliance/if your current alliance has a protector, don't bother staying in peace mode. Likewise, why don't you have any improvements? Lacking them *really* hurts you nation's income.

Reading this made me look at my nation and I saw I'm at 1,000 days. Nation Created: 11/13/2008 5:44:54 PM (1,000 days old)

o/ Pretty Flowers

brb... oh, too small. [quote name='Eff Jay' timestamp='1311382841' post='2761631'] Consider this the only chance you have to raid us. Get your blows in now. Cause you wont have another chance. Also i just wanna say its sad that NG has to pull this card over a newly formed alliance that never did anything to deserve this. It really shows your true colors. [/quote] People really give out protectorates too easily these days.

Its based on cash on hand. Likewise, you only get the interest at the time of your collection. It doesn't really take much money to guarantee the 10k maximum. Around 200k on hand will more than do it. Less the more days since your last collection.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1311030392' post='2758763'] Your good logical reason is as follows. After 7 days, you will have to redeclare. If you declare on NG, that is a whole different matter from a nation declaring on you with your prior consent to not take it to the alliance. Unless Malone agrees to such terms, redeclaring would be treated as a normal declaration of war. [/quote] Lets not forget the little detail of anarchy lasting for several days after the end of the war.... [quote name='Micheal Malone' timestamp='1311035943' post='2758848'] At the request of my government, I accepted your peace offer berbers. [b][i][color="#9acd32"]Total damage inflicted[/color]:[/i][/b] Infra: 280.82 Tech: 49.02 Money[b]:[/b] $14,141,156.00 Land[b]: [/b]72.77 [b][i][color="#ff0000"]Total damage taken[/color]:[/i][/b] Infra[b]: [/b]15.34 Tech[b]:[/b] 3.06 Money[b]:[/b] $0.00 Land[b]:[/b] 0 Good thing you can't fail your CM attacks eh? [/quote] Actually... you can. Its just, very *very* rare. (How a CM could have missed *him* I can only attribute to an act of god. Or simply a lack of things that hadn't yet been broken to hit.)

Thanks. =(^.^)= (Circle now closed.)