Cairna

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1295375716' post='2581655'] Glad someone is pointing this out. That is always the first step in that kind of situation, especially if you're an alliance leader. [/quote] Generally one likes to verify that it's actual information. Human curiosity wins out in this situation. And they weren't exactly given a whole lot of time to go to VE. Like Letum points out, when OV received info they didn't even go to the alliance being infringed upon. They wanted a war. They'll grasp at whatever straw they can get at.

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1295375119' post='2581638'] I agreed with most of your post. I added that NpO should not expect leniency from an AA that hate them. You chose to "insult" my AA out of the blue. This is a good example of stupid behavior that only serves you to create enemies. You are really naive in expecting leniency and diplomacy from people that hate you. If am in a position to decide whether to pursuit a diplomatic solution against an alliance that had "insulted" me in the past you can be sure that I would rather go to war. [/quote] They should expect diplomacy because there are treaties intertwined that SHOULD complicate the issue. Had there been no such thing, I'd still side with the NpO given that it was a rash and opportunistic decision, but I'd be less surprised and offended. And I have a severe lack of enemies as of late. My early career in CN was full of several alliances trying to kill mine, as good old TBB can certainly attest to, so maybe I'm just missing that.

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295374639' post='2581624'] So you concede the point about why he chose VE/MK over MHA? I'm not buying the "non-serious" part, he even gave Lennox false names to use, and then accepted info later. [/quote] On the last note, give me a break. At that point, who wouldn't accept the info? Otherwise there wouldn't be much reason to contact VE over something you originally thought was a joke. As for the name thing, I have on several occasions had joking conversations with people I know about roguing, made jokes about who to target and why, and even on occasion spying. The rogue things sometimes happened, the spying not so much because [b]frankly[/b] in today's CN environment it's useless. It really is. Pretty much harmless. Sure, a good excuse to whack someone if you catch a spy ring. But give me a break, This wasn't a good reason to escalate and put your friends in the positions VE has put theirs in.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295374127' post='2581614'] [i]OOC: I come from a wargamer and RPG background. This game is at its best when there's a nice balance of action and politics (both here and in the IRC backrooms). There have been some very notable wars that have been fought here that were the results of a ton of playing the political game...the Unjust War and the Karma War comes to mind. But then there have been wars that were almost purely the result of boredom...the Woodstock Massacre for example. Whatever the real cause of a war OOC, action helps keep this game healthy as much as politics and when we get too mired in playing "United Nations" its time for a good shooting match.[/i] [/quote] [i]OOC: My issue isn't that war is being caused out of boredom. My issue is that there is no attempt to hide it. If you're going to start a war, you need to be able to defend it. Otherwise it just [b]proves[/b] in a really unfortunate way that not a single one of the top alliance seem to care about keeping up any semblance of politics. They can use whatever argument they want so long as it remains IC and defends their position. Right now most of them just keep backtracking and saying that we'd complain about the boredom if they didn't. They made a bad move and it's unfortunate that nobody seems to care enough about actually [b]playing[/b] the political part of the game to take offense.[/i]

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1295373874' post='2581606'] Your buddies like to create enemies for nothing (like offending my aa when this was not the topic) then you whine an whine when people don't care about diplomacy... [/quote] What's your point? And what buddies of mine have been creating enemies for nothing? And I didn't offend your AA, I insulted it. And as for whining, I haven't been doing any. Let's not go off-topic though. You don't seem like you'd be able to keep up with both.

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1295373658' post='2581603'] This doesn't mitigate your decision to recommend spying on VE or accept and read the screenshots that resulted from your suggestion. None of that should have happened in the first place. [/quote] Do you even know what mitigate means, Penkala?

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1295372551' post='2581584'] How do you know they did not go to either alliance first? Think this war would have gone through if that had not happened? [/quote] It doesn't matter. Then NpO's allies have betrayed them and are just as culpable. [quote]You are right. However, this is between VE, RoK and GOD. My point is Polaris should not had expected diplomacy.[/quote] Because diplomacy isn't a precedent in cases like these? Hell. If it had been FAN at least it would have made sense. My main problem with VE is the fact that these guys just seem to have no personality. No character. Can't stick to a damn thing. Same goes for Sparta, though. At least the orders, and even MHA, stay the course in their dealings.

[quote name='King Louis the II' timestamp='1295371725' post='2581558'] Why you should give more diplomacy when you don't like your opponent? The only reason I see for VE giving more chance to diplomacy was in consideration for RoK and GOD. To friends everything. To Foes the words of the law.... [/quote] That is exactly what they should have done in a good world. And if they hadn't, if things were proper then RoK and GOD shouldn't be taking it with a simple "Oh, welp I guess we're neutral dudes!" An ally hit an ally within 20 hours of being given the simplest of reasons, with a pathetic display for diplomacy and reasoning. They should have because they have friends that would be put in tough situations. But they didn't. And so their friends positions really aren't as tough as they make it seem.

[quote name='ChairmanHal' timestamp='1295371881' post='2581566'] Thank you for finally seeing things my way. T-shirts are available in the lobby. [/quote] This will only need to endless tip-toeing around to avoid a war. People need to start playing the political game. Just starting a war using you're bored as an excuse does NOT make the game more fun. I'm surprised you don't share that view, Hal. I don't care that VE started the war. I care that they did so maliciously, and any ally of the NpO that feels they've been put in a tough situation in which they have to pick should know that they were put there maliciously. At the very least it was a known setup. When presented with this argument most of the war's supporters just whine about how the world needs more war and less diplomacy. It doesn't. It needs people to care about the political game and vie to be top-dog in their own ways. VE chose the time to make it's power play - and if people actually gave a damn about the game a proper resistance would be mounted because they played the wrong card. If there was any hope left in this game, it would show. OOC, I know, but if everyone's going to do it, I might as well.

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1295370284' post='2581523'] Excessive diplomacy is the reason we haven't had a war in so long. There comes a few times in our lives when one must say: $%&@ Diplomacy. A second in command of an alliance aiding and abetting a spy after nearly a full year of blue balls is absolutely one of those times. Unless you'd rather we all just sit around and talk at each other until the end of the world? See above. People like you are what is wrong with the world. [/quote] You can't argue that VE is within the right for starting the war for IC reasons and at the same time argue boredom and OOC reasons and we haven't had war in too long. This kind of crap needs to stop. Take a stand IC, please. --Oops, you have, what I meant was actually stick to it instead of running to the "we're bored" argument

[quote name='lord bitburg' timestamp='1295327562' post='2580215'] Declaration of War from FOK Techdealers and MONGOLS Being small we have no written treaties, WE invoke the PINT OF BEER treaty. So since a Atlantic Sphere Union member attacked FOK Techdealers , and we are drinking buddies, and ASU will not pay reparations, we 2 alliances of less than 20 members declare war on the powerful ASU. Tech raid small alliances and sometimes it pays, and sometimes you pay. [/quote] The tech raid was handled and as I had taken it, it was a mistake and they had no way of knowing the member owed FOK tech. Peace and an agreement with FOK was reached quickly. I'll pay your damages if you don't make me and the NSO get our tiny guys on you. But not the damages you've caused with your attacks. That's on you.

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that in Carpe Diem we [i]do[/i] give out warchest information willy-nilly. In fact, if there any alliances that ever feel the need to spy to acquire that information, we'd like you to know that you can probably just ask.

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1295323578' post='2579949'] I can't help but wonder why your spy is still masked as a member on the VE forums as of just a few minutes ago. [img]http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/6623/sproglennox.jpg[/img] [/quote] There's no reason for them to demask him, pezstar! Like Impero said, he's an experienced [i]former[/i] player. He'll be gone in no time. Just as soon as the job's done.

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295323533' post='2579945'] Oh I see, giant conspiracy theory, VE must have contacted a ruler that had left planet bob (even though they probably didn't have any way to do that) had him contact NpO and tell them about his plan to spy on VE and hoped that NpO would go along with it. That is a brilliant plan and obviously the most likely scenario. [/quote] I admit it's not the most likely scenario that VE knew beforehand, but they sure know how to lead me to think that. Lennox handed them a reason to hit an alliance they've been wanting to hit. They through away the rulebook and diplomacy, and likely knowing Lennox was just screwing over the NpO hit them anyway. I'm not an idiot. I've been around as long as you have, watching. I know Dajobo should have immediately washed his hands of it, as I do anytime someone mentions spying to me. But VE's in the wrong. And to every alliance that complains about them being put in the wrong position, just look at who put you there within a few hours of being given a reason. Try and convince me you're not cowards.

[quote name='King Srqt' timestamp='1295323141' post='2579920'] And what about the evidence is bad? [/quote] Oh please. It's a set-up. VE knew it and jumped on it as soon as they could. Sure, the evidence may be acceptable on some levels, but they're trying to throw a veil over our eyes. The logs from Dajobo are hardly condemning. The fact that they refused to allow any sort of diplomatic resolution is just icing on the cake.

[quote name='Owned-You' timestamp='1295322327' post='2579862'] I believe Lennox(and other incarnations) has since left CN all together. If he's re-rolled into a new identity I cannot say for certain. [/quote] Golly, that's convenient. Lennox, CN's little gift fairy.

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1295321108' post='2579778'] So I guess the real questions are: 1. Did Lennox set up Polar on his own and VE is just rolling with it no matter how obvious it is? 2. Did Lennox set up Polar working for VE? I mean we all know its a set up but, just how much is VE involved? The war is on anyway I do not suppose anyone at VE will come clean and lets us know if they were the (knowing) pawns or the master minds? The only problem is its so clearly a set up who is this suppose to convince? [/quote] Give me a break. Just look at the timeline. Option #2 plz, tbb

[quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1295320195' post='2579710'] But this is our 3rd time in this position. [/quote] Ragnarok has no excuse not to back their allies in this war. Apart form the purely legal, you should see through the bull for the sake of your ACTUAL ally and see the set-up. Give me a break. I don't have a treaty with Polar. And I have no particular love. But I hope to Admin this escalates and I get to do the right thing where you've failed.

Looking over this it seems like there's a hell of a lot of foul play afoot. I normally would have just assumed it was Lennox's shenanigans, but it certainly seems like VE played a role in the set-up. At the very least, they didn't play the friendly neighbor. Lennox sent that information on Sunday at 10pm, and VE jumped on it within a days notice? You're not that impressive - pretty sure you were getting ready before then.

[quote name='Vladimir Nikanor' timestamp='1295315626' post='2579258'] Wow. Solid investigative work. Good Luck VE [/quote] Is that what you call a sting op?

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1294610438' post='2570149'] I get the same feeling. If half the alliances that are inactive and going nowhere disbanded, this game would be better off. [/quote] What do you think they'd run off and join some fun politically active super alliance? If CD disbanded, more than half our members would delete. I can't imagine it's too much different from others.

How much do you know of Terra-Cotta beyond your relations with the NSO?

Whatever we didn't want an embassy anyway.

[quote name='Steinfeld' timestamp='1292908006' post='2547612'] this whole thing still perplexes me.... i still cant find waldo, i mean the protection announcement.... [/quote] Stop whining. They could have done better, but it was pretty clear on the first page of Dark Fist's original announcement.

Poor show by AiD as usual. Entirely expected.