Yggdrazil

Semantic nitpicking is my thing. Aggression =aggressor Just like it's semantically correct to point out that after the third day of the war, the war became aggressive revenge and no longer defense of OV.

Karma is saying come out now, take you punishment and get your reparations and pay those and your will save some infra, tech and money. There are things more important than infra/tech/money which Karma seems to have failed to consider and maybe the evil NPO is quided by this concept now.

No amount of e-lawyering will change the fact that if you are taking up a defensive slot you are the aggressor.However offensive action is certainly good defense.

Being the number one alliance comes with some hard lessons, you are now a target for everyone with an issue with the way things are done. It might just make you realize why the NPO did the things it did. Sparta now has enemies that are self-appointed and this is just the first of many that will generate bad publicity. Sure this started as a joke but became serious fast.

This war was won on the forums before there was a single nation arrayed against the NPO. The NPO ignored this to their detriment.Karma seems to be following this same methodology, ignoring those looking for a radical change in the paradigm of how alliances are treated by the victors. The movement isn't small but has not coalesce into full blown opposition yet because NPO has not been given terms.I suspect that the terms will set a record and the thread about it to also set a record. Continue this if you must but Karma is a universal concept.

Those of us on the Hegemony side realized the stiff reparations will be given the NPO. The problem; lack of specificity by the opposing side, only vague subjective suggestions on what NPO needs to attain peace.

Before long you will see Free NPO in sigs.

The NPO by your standards were victorious over Vox and Fan.Yet, both these Alliances thought otherwise. Neither accepted NPO's terms or conditions and I bet as things stand now NPO will not accept these horrible pre-conditions and will eventually get offered something different.Will NPO accept those is the question?

Revenge has 150 nukes taken and counting,yet people wonder why the NPO did the things it did.I can think of no one who can approach this number.The new top alliance will probably learn this the hard way; that being number one makes you the target of all the asshatery this game can muster.Their forums will be attacked and spyed on and with the philosophy of no PZI it will bite them on the South end.I will be a Prophet and perdict its return or e-lawyering that ZI someone more than once isn't PZI.

150 nukes and counting,yet people wonder why the NPO did the things it did.I can think of no one who can approach this number.The new top alliance will probably learn this the hard way; that being number one makes you the target of all the asshatery this game can muster.Their forums will be attacked and spyed on and with the philosophy of no PZI it will bite them on the South end.I will be a Prophet and perdict its return or e-lawyering that ZI someone more than once isn't PZI.

Before the war, NPO had just past the 1 million tech mark and now you demand that as reps.You sir need to get real.

NPO-$1.00 Iron-$0.99 TPF-$0.98: someone on the karmic side needs to send MHawk $0.02, since he has already paid a dollar. Echelon-$0.97

A statistical comparison is not the alliance. "The morale to the physical is three to one." The Goons were the first to cross the two thousand nuke marker, where is that statistical powerhouse now? The intangibles that aren't measurable are an alliance major strengths. How many "bean counters" make up the membership. How many will still stand and fight when all they worked so hard for turns to nuclear ash. An alliance true strength lies in the commitment of the membership. Just look at Fan, still not gone with overwhelming force applied. Thus the real test of leadership is where the leader harnesses these intangibles and forges something stronger.

That sound rumbling that is almost audible, is the vacuum created with the demise of the continuum. Some alliance will take over the mantle recently occupied by the NPO. The number one spot comes with some hard lessons; by just being number one your enemies with be self-appointed, you will become the target of spies by those who consider it better tactics to spy and wars will be waged against you with unconventional means. Will the new power be able to fight this with the means the anti-hegemony do not label tyrannical?

That sound rumbling that is almost audible, is the vacuum created with the demise of the continuum. Some alliance will take over the mantle recently occupied by the NPO. The number one spot comes with some hard lessons; by just being number one your enemies with be self-appointed, you will become the target of spies by those who consider it better tactics to spy and wars will be waged against you with unconventional means. Will the new power be able to fight this with the means the anti-hegemony do not label tyrannical?

Planet Bob and the war ongoing will change the paradigm that has existed to date. Will whatever fills the vacuum left really be any different from what has gone before. I'm sure they will begin with a new less oppressive regime. Yet, being the new power, forces not seen will begin to coalesce and marshal in opposition. It will begin with individual nations opposed and if you only response is ZI, then escalation by these nations will lead to what essentially is the re-birth of EZI or PZI. You might not call it permanent or eternal, but if re-rolls continue behavior that got them ZIed and you continue to ZI you have in essence what NPO and others did. Once a nation renounced their old behavior and demonstrated they were not following their former opposition NPO removed them eternal ZI and allowed back into the community of nations. If NPO continues the fight as Vox Populi did will the new power also be predisposed to finally offer "White" peace or do as NPO did; eternal war.

Were not NV's reparation forgiven by one of the Hegemony's alliances just last fall.

Planet Bob and the war ongoing will change the paradigm that has existed to date. Will whatever fills the vacuum left really be any different from what has gone before. I'm sure they will begin with a new less oppressive regime. Yet, being the new power, forces not seen will begin to coalesce and marshal in opposition. It will begin with individual nations opposed and if you only response is ZI, then escalation by these nations will lead to what essentially is the re-birth of EZI or PZI. You might not call it permanent or eternal, but if re-rolls continue behavior that got them ZIed and you continue to ZI you have in essence what NPO and others did. Once a nation renounced their old behavior and demonstrated they were not following their former opposition NPO removed them from eternal ZI and allowed back into the community of nations. If NPO continues the fight as Vox Populi did will the new power also be predisposed to finally offer "White" peace or do as NPO did; eternal war.

A statistical comparison is not the alliance. "The morale to the physical is three to one." The Goons were the first to cross the two thousand nuke marker, where is that statistical powerhouse now? The intangibles that aren't measurable are an alliance major strengths. How many "bean counters" make up the membership. How many will still stand and fight when all they worked so hard for turns to nuclear ash. An alliance true strength lies in the commitment of the membership. Just look at Fan, still not gone with overwhelming force applied. Thus the real test of leadership is where the leader harnesses these intangibles and forges something stronger.

This is an impressive feat.A million tech at 150 a deal is 6666 deals times 3 million equals 19,998,000,000.I rounded off some numbers. These numbers do not take in account tech lost from deletions and war loses.

Granted. I wrote my post to the audience on CN that hasn't read a treatise on logic lately and are unaware of the subtle nuances of logic as you and Vladimir are. Also many others.

My intent was not to change it or to rant about its use, but to point out as others have even in our representative bodies of the use of "character attacks" and to disclose a new wrinkle.

Valimer is correct, my examples are not ad hominems, that's why I called them a new wrinkle. Haflinger, in your example, the limitation of character is proven and not just dismissed by way of an ad hominem or issues I address. I used Electron Sponge because he is vilified, but he is not wrong ever instance. He might have a valid point and dismissing it by way of his reputation is a logical fallacy.

The post was addressed to an educated audience. Do you see how simple it is? Since I'm a new poster without a following I come across as a jerk. However, if I was one of the stars of the forum I would have discredited you in many minds. No facts. Just an attack on character and no facts there either. You could be one of the most brilliant minds CN has. Thus a clarification might be in order. Paragraph four was an attempt, maybe poor, to address instances where I've seen it used; in other venues. They all are attacks on some manifestations of the character. Attacks because they are too old, too new, not in the majority, old-fashioned or questioning their mental capability without facts and not responding to the points of the argument.

This type of argument is becoming pervasive, here on the OWF and is essentially a verbal attack against a person and not a response to his argument. Now though, there is a new wrinkle in this type of attack. It's what I like to call the Emperor's New Clothes ad hominem. I will not repeat the story, if you are not aware of the fairy tale google it for the information. Let us suppose that you bring up Electron Sponge to amplify a point in your argument. Then, the person who opposes your point remarks," Surely you aren't going to bring Electron Sponge's view to justify your view, everyone knows that in today's era Electron Sponge has been discredited." Now those listeners, who are not schooled in rhetoric and logic, will, if you insist on continuing with Electron Sponge, in their minds equate you as discredited too! Other examples: Surely in our day and age you do not hold with that old-fashioned premise. That ideal might have been a current one in an earlier era of Cybernations, but this age sees it different. That's a quaint notion for a noob; naive never-the-less. All the Cybernation agrees....The best minds agree....I'm shocked that someone can still believe that has any bearing when all of Cybernations sees it different. Only a modern morality can define modern problems. There are of course thousands of variations on this theme. And like the people in the Emperors New Clothes no one wants to consider themselves with an outdated morality, discredited, old fashioned or a noob, left over from a bygone era, and can't see the snake oil salesman in their midst pulling a fast one.