[Peace terms for AX]

who's bawwing here? I eat nukes for breakfast, I'm having fun dude. Your new terms will be posted up shortly.

If they didn't accept these, why do you think harsher terms would suddenly be appealing?

[The Reformation, and a Declaration of Vox Populi]

"Join us and you'll be free."

That's a period at the end of his statement. So grammatically he is just as likely to be intoning a command (action and consequence in the predicate leads this logic). An invitation would have been considered had he written a simple, "Join us."

So it's obvious that you'll believe a lot of things, but that doesn't mean you're correct.

Oh come on. This nitpicking is below even what I do. I'm not sure how you possibly could think we were commanding people to join Vox Populi. We are all here purely because we want to be here. An invitation is the only reasonable way to interpret that.

[Vox Populi Bigger than GOD!]

i think that its pretty simple to realize why Vox is growing.

when a large alliance goes to war, a number of its nations get a message telling them to go to a certain thread where they will find their target and prolly a link to their war guide.

most never think about why they are at war, why their alliance is fighting, they just go declare and fight because someone high up told em to and they got a message from the military command giving them orders to do so.

however some of these people, as soon as they lose a bit of infra and tech, start thinking, hey, why are we in this again? and at that point they start searching for the reason for war and what happened.

some of that small group decide that they don't agree with the war, and some of those start sympathising the opponents and decide to leave their alliance to join the other side- usually Vox.

one of the main reasons why many people have found that there's something wrong with this war is that we're fighting NpO, and most of us, and especially those who have been in CN for a long time, have known that NPO always goes with NpO, that Polar is our friend and that we will never be at war with them. for those who have not been active lately war on polaris was totally unexpected and very hard to justify with the use of a weak CB, leading to many leaving our side and going over to Vox's side.

however, the people on our side who start trying to find out why we're in this war are reducing, not increasing in numbers, and the trend of people quiting our alliances is reducing, and even more the trend of those people migrating to Vox and not to some other ininvolved alliance.

in a few days, the positive trend of Vox will stop, and war will go back to its normal reality- loss of infra, of tech, reduction of NS, plain destruction of the nation you strived to build, for all sides. and the enthusiasts who joined you will be disheartened.

however over here, our Ministries of Finance will open their books, make a list of nations needing war aid and tell banks to help em out, most of the harder hit nations will cycle out of war when our conflicts expire and get back in after a few days of regrouping and peace, and any wars that are not going too well will become easier with the flow of many nations that are just entering the scene.

over in your side, nothing will really change, except maybe that all of you will get 3 opponents and all your slots will be filled, while now some are still left with 2 slots filled.

there will be no bank nations helping you out, because your bank nations will be getting pwnt while ours are prolly out of war or even peace moded.

there will be no break from this conflict.

there will no longer be any shiny announcements about the milestones you passed.

and IRON and its allies will once again be victorious.

edited because i hate spelling mistakes.

And this is the sad reality of the Cyberverse today. No one really questions why they are at war. Might makes right, and Continuum overflows with might. In Vox, we are here to stand and die knowing that, in the end, we were no slaves; we were free men making our own choices, and finally dying at the hand of those who had a choice made for them.

[New Alliance/IRC Combo List]

Alliance (full name, acronym): Vox Populi (Vox)

Alliance Color: Red

Alliance IRC Channel: #vox_populi

URL to forums: http://z10.invisionfree.com/Populi

[Imperial Statement from OneVision]

Please, they'd KILL to have me in Vox Populi. They'd throw you out to get me. Besides government members, there are precious few people more immediately identified with that which is Pacifica than me.

Where the hell did you even come from, anyway? Is there some newsletter being circulated between long forgotten leaders?

If you genuinely wanted to be part of the movement, that would be one thing. However, I wouldn't kill to have someone claim affiliation with our alliance when they don't actually care in the least about Vox.

[Mission Accomplished]

No point collecting for a month at this rate.

Sure there is. You get deleted if you don't.

[Declaration of War]

Since here and for several pages afterward for a start.

You claim no leadership, yet you pontificate "Eleven Founders".

Hardly an anarchistic movement for reordering Planet Bob.

So, without merriment and with a dutiful frame, I join my alliance and allies.

To war.

We founded the movement. As in, we started it. I don't see any hidden meaning behind calling us the 'eleven founders'. Every movement has to start somewhere, with someone.

[Declaration of War]

Consider this DoW as informing your (non-existant) leadership. Guess we gave you too much credit for having some organization.

And yet your allies still needed help.

[Declaration of War]

We are ever so afraid.

[Vox Populi Announcement]

By your argument, wouldn't your alliance fit the term? Vox Populi is constantly quoting their high NS, which is all fine and good, and using that as a better and better excuse to justify attacks and shrugging off complaints, explicitly ignoring any fear of what may happen as a result.

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea. We do indeed quote our increasing strength (and of late, others have begun doing it for us!), however we do not use it to justify our actions. We declared war on GGA and Valhalla with only 11 members, and expecting to only head down from there. We declared war purely because we thought it was the right thing to do. It was not justified by any massive strength, and still is not.

But since you do not control the Vox Populi, it makes sense that someone in the Vox considers it to be a valid charter, no?

No, because a charter would mean there are indeed leadership positions with specific roles, and as there is no real leadership role in the alliance, the charter is clearly not for this alliance.

Suppose if they joined and had a change of heart. What then? If they felt the same end could be brought about by peaceful means, would you tolerate it?

To be honest, I'm not sure. I would assume the person would remove the Vox AA so they wouldn't be attacked, though.

Just so I can get this straight...

You are fighting to keep people from having to leave Bob and your stated goal is to kick NPO out of Bob?

Some twisted logic.

The NPO is a group, not an individual. In theory, the NPO can be destroyed, but that does not force anyone out of the Cyberverse. We find that as a group they do more harm than good for the Cyberverse, and thus action needs to be taken against them. Precisely what action would suffice varies from member to member of Vox Populi.

OOC: I'm afraid I can't answer any more questions, as I'm off to see the Dark Knight again

[Vox Populi Announcement]

The Continuum and 1V overlap considerably. Doing a combined amount still pales in comparison (at least, to my knowledge) to the total NS of other alliances in the game. Furthermore, when did NS determine true power? Has a lower-NS nation never overcome a nation with higher NS before?

Of course it has happened, but when such a matchup is put to the test thousands of times, it will result in greater losses for the smaller nation or alliance.

Then why no notification that it was a memento?

Well now you know. Any further questions?

[Vox Populi over 2 million NS]

So many new targets

I would be quite impressed if ODN managed to cover all of Vox.

[Vox Populi Announcement]

Who are you to determine what is "extremely imbalancing" and "powerful"?

When an alliance or entity can pursue the policy of 'might makes right' without any serious fear of repercussions, I consider it imbalanced and powerful. I would like to hear your own idea of the terms, if you dispute mine.

Edit: Caliph coverered this better than I did.

Then please explain why the most recent version before I deleted it had resumed the original charter.

Perhaps a misunderstanding? You can't exactly request that we not moderate our IRC channel but at the same time expect anyone to keep absolute control over the membership of Vox.

If another member of Vox Populi disagreed with you, would you let that member remain in your ranks?

Methinks not.

I don't believe anyone would join Vox Populi in the first place if they disagreed with our war against the GGA, Valhalla, and their allies and di not wish to be at war.

[Vox Populi Announcement]

It could be said that the difficulty of comprehension goes both ways, but then we know that it isn't true as I know that you understood what I meant.

The starters of this all, did it for their personal vendetta towards individuals on their targeted side. They have colored this drive for vengeance by cheap rhetorics of "fighting for better CN, etc.". Trying to give their down to Earth reasoning, a more "noble" packing. Trying to spin a personal thing, into a global.

Some hooked up to this, believing the package. No, you didn't lied to them that they join a side which is determine to get kicked, you just lied to them what were your original reasons for this all--- playing them like that. No, not really a "better CN", more "I wanna hurt xy".

I believe a better Cyberverse can be achieved through the destruction, or at least weakening, of certain alliances - namely those, those upon whom we initially declared war. The desire to rid the Cyberverse of an entity and the desire to create a better Cyberverse are by no means mutually exclusive.

Now, I will not lie to you (as you did to them) that I actually care that they are going to get kicked. "Form a line, thank you"-- is my take on it.

The question actually went to you, ring leaders, which claim that you fallow certain "moral code". My question was, will you, "moral warriors", at the end of your personal charade (when it fails miserably) apologize to nations which you deceived by making them believe that this is something more then what it is, your personal jihad quest? Or is your "moral code" just a shame, as your proclaimed reasons for existence?

Actually, no need to answer me now. Let us see it how you will act, in the end.

I will answer you now as you asked. I will not apologize to those who, by their own free will, joined our movement in full knowledge of the implications. I feel no need to apologize, and I would be honestly surprised to see one request for an apology by a Vox member when this is all over.

OOC: About the English thing, its ok. I didn't take it as a grave insult, even if it was meant like that. I am not that easily offended, and I do believe it wasn't meant like that anyway.

OOC: Thank you for your understanding. I will tread more carefully around the language issue in the future.

Vox Populi appears structured enough to say things like this...

Again, if you are suggesting we not have channel operators in our IRC channel, well... I don't really know what to say to that.

[Vox Populi Announcement]

Well said. Let's agree to disagree then shall we?

Sure.

[Vox Populi over 2 million NS]

I'll be more impressed if you're still over 2M NS in a couple of weeks.

So will we.

[Vox Populi Announcement]

OOC You do realize english is not Branimir's first language? That would mean making fun of his ability to understand the language an unnecessary and out of character attack.

OOC: I was not aware of this. My apologies. However, based on previous postings, he seemed to be perfectly fine at English, so I had a hard time understanding why the content of my posts was being ignored.

IC: Great, so you decided after you gained some larger nations that uncalled for behavior wasn't the right route? How courageous indeed.

I will be perfectly honest here. When we started this, it was to have a blast before leaving the game. I wanted to pay my dues to an alliance I disliked, and at the time doing so verbally was the only route, as I planned on deleting my nation in a few days. As I feel I can better repay them in an in-game fashion, I have chosen to take that route instead.

[Vox Populi Announcement]

Hey nice OOC attack. How far you have fallen former comrade. As far as the IRC thing, I couldn't care less what you guys do. I'm just happy you've all assembled under one name... makes targeting you a bit easier.

OOC: I made an OOC attack? I believe I remarked on the fact that Branimir was clearly not understanding what I was saying, though how that constitutes an OOC attack is beyond me.

IC: You can care about whatever you like, I was addressing another person's concerns about IRC.

[Vox Populi Announcement]

You claim we planted a spy, aaaand I should believe you why exactly?

You still didnt answer my question: Will your ring leaders apologize to nations they dragged into their personal vendetta on false pretenses?

You are clearly having a difficult time comprehending basic English; however, I understand this is a common ailment among many on your side of this war. There are no false pretenses here. Members join knowing that it means their nations will be wrecked. They join knowing that we are here to oppose the Continuum and its associated alliances, who are the aggressors in this war. We do not 'drag' members in. Why should there be any need for an apology?

As for the spying, you will continue to believe what you want to believe. There is no reason to believe me, other than the fact that I am telling the truth, which rarely is a barrier these days.

So whatever happened to that no leadership thing you guys were on about?

Are you suggesting that we should not have channel operators on IRC? Obviously some sort of structure is needed simply to give the alliance basic organization, it is however minimal, and restricted essentially to applications and IRC moderation.

[Vox Populi over 2 million NS]

Now we just need somebody who actually is in Vox Populi to make the official annoucement to continue the trend

We were actually planning on not announcing this one.

[Vox Populi Announcement]

I wasn't mocking anyone, that was the day vox formed, so there wasn't any precedence to "prevent" me from doing anything. It came clearly from Jonathan brookbank's personal vendetta and hatred for GGA/PC (probably just GGA, but since PC is allied to GGA he must hate us as well), which is what you were trying to say doesn't motivate anyone in Vox.

And were you to join right now, I would still remove you.

With all due respect Vox Populi members have not been shy of dishing out such mockery themselves.

I believe we have moved on from channel invasions. While I do admit guilt in doing it at the beginning of our existence, I have come to realize that it is indeed pointless and low, and I apologize. If you find any members of Vox Populi invading your channel, please inform us.

[Vox Populi Announcement]

"[10:57pm] You were kicked from the chat room by Jonathan_Brookbank|Vox. (Did you Poison Clan really too stupid to stop suck GGA d***?)" (censorship added)

Justice and respect! Honor! Don't look at the way we actually behave, just listen to the words we say!!!

That is removing you from our channel, not denying your application. As a general policy we remove members of alliances who are on the opposing side from our channel, to prevent the usual mockery that ensues when we let many of you remain.

And as a response, I get a wild accusation back for defense of what is clearly a thing that makes Vox, not so Populi at all.

Oh, well

That is not a wild accusation, we discovered that someone was leaking logs the NPO leadership. It's actually quite simple. I'm not sure what the last part of your point is supposed to mean - is it somehow against our ideals to ask why your alliance is spying when at the same time you say spying is pointless?

[Vox Populi Announcement]

One of you is joking... let's guess!

My guess is the latter. The Lord Our Admin has banned the abomination that is a viceroyship, at any rate.

What you seem to fail to grasp is that people learn from the past. One Vision and the Continuum worked, and continue to work. You think after this war is over, if you were to win, another dominant bloc WOULDN'T form? Successful ideas get copied, and unsuccessful ideas get relegated to the history books. You are like those traditionalists who are always pining for "the good ol days". Ideas evolve, times change. It is the people who can adapt who survive, and those who cling to the past who fade away.

Your common vision still exists - in history and in your memory. Cherish that. But to try and revert a world that has progressed beyond that period is a mistake.

Yes, another bloc will be formed. It is indeed inevitable. However, we can hope to prevent such extremely imbalancing and powerful blocs such as the Continuum from forming.

Good point. Then let's delete the charter, shall we?

*Deletes charter*

Oooh, here's something juicy. The Charter was added August 15, 2008, at 2311 hours - one minute after this edit:

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS CHARTER IS FROM THE VOX POPULI THAT HAS SINCE DISBANDED. THE CURRENT VOX POPULI HAS NO CHARTER AND HAS NO GOVERNMENT.

What gives?

What gives is that the charter you read is from the Vox Populi that has since disbanded. The current Vox Populi has no charter and has no government.

Oh, common now. I thought you would come back with something better.

Some people are banned obviously not for that reason. Also, presuming anybody would even want to send a spy in this loose ad hoc coalition of nations, you do know that you can not really stop them as its just one of those things that pests all alliances.

The banning from Vox of butt hurt individuals, just seem to be a measure of the ring leaders to exert even more personal vendetta to some who actually even share their ideals, but forever reason are not accepted in this personal vendetta club as the ring leaders don't like them.

That means, that you can hardly claim to be a pan folk movement, now can you?

Only makes it more transparent that the so called ideas you are fighting for are just a cover for more down to Earth, human emotion of personal vengeance. Nothing really grand about that.

I am curious then as to why the New Pacific Order planted a spy in our ranks. Perhaps you could shed some light on that? As for banning members because they are supposedly disliked by the "ring leaders", I would like an example of such before answering your question.

[Vox Populi Announcement]

Yet you believe that the only vision of honor and respect that is valid is your own. In a future of your so-called honor and respect, will it be any less fun than it was when it was dominated by "tyranny and manipulation"? When one dominant force fades, another one must rise. How would you be any better?

No world is perfect, there are simply better and worse alternatives, and an alternate universe ruled by Vox Populi would be absolutely awful.

The main problem with your ideas is quite clear; you instantly assume that a victory means the world is ruled by someone. When the Orders lost GWI, no dominant force emerged to rule the world. It was only when the Initiative was founded and subsequently won GWII that such a body could truly be called the 'dominant force'. When the Unjust War concluded, the ~ coalition dissolved and went to make their own blocs, and it was only when One Vision and the Continuum were founded that you could really say where there was a center of power in the world.

What we have on our side in this war is no cohesive bloc, but rather a coalition by necessity that is fighting for its existence. We have no intention of ruling the world. We are here to displace that power that seeks to destroy us, and then retreat back to our corner of the Cyberverse if indeed we even remain as an alliance. We do not seek to take their place, unlike so many other revolutions throughout history. We are here, standing side by side because we have a common vision of a world not ruled by the idea of might makes right, a vision of a world free from a single dominant power base that controls and destroys alliances on a whim.

But, it seems that you do not accept all from the people? It seems certain individuals are even pre banned from joining.

So, how does that make you Vox Populi, if you do not accept all from the folk, but only those which original ring leaders have no problem with?

I advise a change of name.

Vox of butt hurt individuals*

Also, will you answer to all those which you dragged into your personal vendetta scheme on false pretenses that this is something other then that, "holier"? To be a tool in your personal jihad?

*individuals refers to original ringleaders which started this personal vendetta agenda.

Forgive us if we do not accept members we believe to be applying for less than agreeable reasons (i.e. gathering information). The only problem we could possibly have with a person's application is if we believe they are there to damage the movement and not support it. Therefore it makes perfect sense to disallow such applicants from joining the alliance.

I appreciate your input as to our name; however, we are satisfied with Vox Populi and will thus remain so.

Lastly, while this has been answered previously, we inform people what joining the alliance entails. We tell people that joining Vox Populi means a permanent sentence to a nation without infrastructure, and yet people still join. We use no manipulation to obtain new members, no false pretenses. Perhaps if you could point to some, we could clarify the point to better your understanding of our cause.

[Vox Populi Announcement]

So, after this war is over, if by some miracle you were to win, how many of you are actually going to stick around? What is the actual plan here?

Or are you simply looking for the restart button?

A Vox Populi victory in this war would be the worst thing possible to happen.

It's far easier to destroy than to build, and if you all succeed in your goal of destruction, I am curious to see which of you will stick around for the rebuilding.

But continue your crusades, the real honorable people will be around to clean up the mess long after you lot have gone.

While it is indeed far easier to destroy than to build, we we are no aggressors. This is a revolution in response to unnecessary aggression by the likes of GGA and Valhalla, two alliances with a history of similar actions in the past. We are not at fault for the destruction currently taking place.

Those who continue on after this war comes to a finish continue on only through their own desire to remain in a world ruled by tyranny and manipulation, or honor and respect, depending on who wins this war in the end. While I cannot speak for my comrades in arms, I will stay to rebuild if the latter world emerges when the smoke clears. If it is the former, than there is nothing worth rebuilding anymore.

I am not sure why you believe there is honor in rebuilding a nation or world when that world is no longer something worth fighting for, or something worth building back. We all have our own beliefs and opinions of what constitutes the ambiguous idea of 'honor', but remaining under the chains of tyranny is not a component in my book.