Cortath

I would like to reiterate to the above posts to my post here, and ask them to discuss numbers. Thank you for your time.

I would similarly and again like to direct all the posters to my post here, and ask them to discuss numbers. Thank you for your time.

The the various posts above, certain claims are made regarding the realistic nature of these terms, as well as the military damage the NPO could expect to take in 14+ days of war. I'd like to direct all the posters to my post here, and ask them to discuss numbers. Thank you for your time.

My math is here. I invite those interested to read that post.

The above is a little image thrown in for my NPO economics folk. You should get it. Many people have thrown out numbers in this thread about what we "can" pay. Here is my analysis. Background The economics is this: 300K tech from the nations who have 1K+. That's about 180. 7B or 233.33K tech from anyone. At least 25K/month from the 300K must be given every month. And something like 580M from the money. That means about 34K tech, if you convert it to tech. Firstly, what should be recognized is that you're creating two alliances, essentially. An alliance of 181 people that have to pay 300K tech, and the whole alliance that can pay the 7B/233.3K tech. Getting to War Before we get those lovely 2 weeks of peace mode, we have to get 90% of our nations above 4K infra out of PM, and 90% of our total alliance out of PM. That means we can get 7 nations in PM above 4K infra, and about 70 nations alliance-wide still in PM. This is mid-June. The New Pacific Order presently has orders for nations to be cycling in and out of peace mode as needed to lose nuclear anarchy. Many nations aren't following those Orders. Why? [OOC]Probably RL. Sometimes those of us who are able to up late at night posting on these forums forget that a lot of people are not able to engage in a war the way we want them to. It's June, people. Most schools are ending. Most colleges are ended/ending. Kids are starting summer jobs. Let's face it, most of the CN user base is in school or young and working.[/ooc] Achieving a 90% war mode rate is ridiculous. Karma's demand that we expel loyal members, some of whom have been around for years, who might be a little busy right now, is ridiculous. But that's what we have to do to get to 2 weeks of war. A significant point to consider also, is the number of ghosts in our alliance. While normally we are very good at removing ghosts, they're obviously not a top military priority. Ghosts frequently stay in the NPO, because most alliances are/were afraid to attack an NPO nation, even if it does appear to be a ghost. With an alliance as ridden with ghosts as we are, and that's not even beginning to consider any foul play that may be afoot, we have a lot of PM nations as well. However long it takes, some things are certain: more nations will lose money, infra, tech, and land. More warchests will be depleted. Those nations in PM will continue to lose money due to the PM happiness modifier. Two Weeks of War Then comes two weeks of war for PM nations. Except it won't be just two weeks of war. Many of our nations will be in war much longer because as they get out of peace mode, there will be a lag from the time they get out, to when the "magic numbers" of 90% are hit. Karma isn't fools. They prepared these terms, and I assume they're prepared for war. We expect no less than 3v1 on our banking nations. Karma is 18 alliances on our front, and they can pick the choicest, elite fighters from their alliances to carefully plan and orchestrate an attack on a much smaller foe. Assuming a single attacker at a high NS, with all the improvements and wonders such a nation should have, etc., etc., these are the damage estimates for such a war: Nukes: 240 infra/day Ground: 64 infra/day CM: 32 infra/day Aircraft 64 infra/day. Multiple all but nukes by three and then 14. Multiple nukes by 13. Add it all together. You lose 9,840 infra. Tech: 80 from nukes. 16 from ground. 9.6 from CMs. Do the same calculations, and your nation loses 2115.2 tech. Land: 240 from nukes. 64 from ground. Do the same calculations and your nation 5808 land. So, let sum up war here. A nation at war will lose 9,840 infra, 2115.5 tech, and 5808 land. All nations but 25 will be ZIed. We will have two nations above 5K infra. Certainly, as one gets lower, the damage will lessen, but once you're that low, it doesn't matter much, from a rebuilding perspective. It's buying higher infra that is impossible. Analysis of the Effect of War on the Ability to Pay Reparations Alrighty. So an alliance of 700 odd nations now have 300K tech to pay from 181 nations, all of whom are ZI except 25, none of whom are banker level except two. We also have to pay 7B, or 233.3K tech, if you convert that to tech, but that can be from everyone. Now, some people are going to claim "massive war chests." It ain't there people. 7 weeks of nuclear war, plus stints in PM, or for our banks, 7 weeks in PM, hurts those warchests a lot, even billion dollar warchests. Yes, some nations might have billion dollar warchests at the end of the war, but the catch has never been the size of the warchest, but how much you can send out. 18M/cycle just doesn't even take out a chunk of these types of reparations. Generally speaking, when one has had to give out reparations or produce tech, that tech can be funded somehow, or subsidized. No can-do here, because the banks are gone. Smaller nations are also not allowed to sell tech outside the NPO due to these terms. Now, again, generally speaking, people point to 180 nations, and say, oh look, you can just multiply all the slots by the nations over time and pay it off easy! Here's the problem with that kind of thinking: 1. It assumes all 180 nations are active. Really, with programs like these, you can't expect much better than 50-60% activity. You know how I know? I asked the MK guys during negotiations how many nations paid off their tech reps, and it was far less than that percentage as a percentage of their alliance. 2. It assumes that every single slot will always be used, always. That's just ridiculous. There are very few nations on the Planet that manage that have all 4/5/6 slots filled every day, and we're no different. You lose efficiency from that. 3. It assumes that all these nations will have money with which to purchase and send tech, or just plain good ol' money lying around to send to Karma. Right now, we literally have 47 nations at ZI. I don't mean people with 100 infra, I mean people with 0.00 infrastructure. We have 402 members under 200 infrastructure, 511 under 500. You can look up the stats for yourselves, but we don't have nations who can either produce money or tech to send as reparations, particularly not when the Bank, which possibly could be used to fund a rebuilding/reparations effort, will have been destroyed by war. 4. Most Karma estimates I've seen presented only looked at paying off the 300K, or the 7B, but but not both at once. It would be a monumental task to do either one of them, but it's entirely a different story to do both, particularly given that they both come from different sources due to the 1K+ tech restriction on where the 300K tech has to come from. Conclusion The New Pacific Order seriously considered these terms. We went to the negotiation table about a month ago asking Karma alliances for terms to surrender. We went to them in good faith that they would present something that would be possible for us to pay. What was presented was not possible in anything less than a year at the best, most likely a year and a half. There's a range because there are ranges of slot efficiencies that you can make estimates for, a range of participation levels from your members you can make estimates for, and a range of damage you can make estimates for based on the 14 days of wars. Karma did not give us terms we could possibly take. We presented them a counter-offer. It was more money and more tech than any alliance or group of alliances have ever received in any war, ever. It was more than the amount that they had asked for initially. Why they did not take that counter-offer, I could not tell you.

Given you know, that by the time you read, this will be page upteenth, I'd recommend if you want whatever issue you think exists resolves, you should contact someone on IRC privately. It's rather difficult to resolve these kinds of individual things in this thread.

I don't know what I'm talking about? Are you saying negotiations didn't happen tonight? Private channels ftw. Contact an NPO Imperial Officer.

I suppose the Karma negotiators we spoke with for over two hours tonight did not share with you the content of those negotiations. We discussed numbers in depth. Though we suspected that many of the "Karma" alliances are out of the loop, it's nice to see that confirmed.

You are wrong. We seriously considered and analyzed what we expected the military damages to our banks and other high-level NS nations, and then considered what types of economic programs we can develop to pay these terms, within these unique restrictions. Our conclusions was that our nations would be so economically destroyed, they would be unable to rebuild to a level whereby they could even begin to pay off these reparations in anything resembling a reasonable time frame.

Congratulations to UPN!

My NS isn't that low! I bought back some infra!

Whoops!

Congratulations GATO! I was wondering though...when did GATO get into space? Your banner almost suggests there is something beyond Planet Bob, but as Admin knows, that is heresy.

I knew your posts were missing something.

This posts lacks the egomaniacal charm that made the OP so delightful to read. I'd note that "economic regulators can control" doesn't particularly smack of the "free market" mentioned in the OP. My original commentary on the theory stands.

The theory is too egomaniacal to be correct.

They are better eaten when they are young and far more tender. The New Pacific Order Imperial Officer of Culinary Affairs would disapprove.

New Pacific Order.

NPO nations are not prohibited form participating in the national role-play areas of the CyberNations forum, only this forum and its sub-forums. We thank you for your concern for our members' role-play activities. -Cortath Imperial Officer, New Pacific Order

*chuckles heartily* It is good to see you again, Quaestor Chronorica. I have nothing but facts. That General Bragg wishes to lie, I can do little to prevent.

The New Pacific Order's Tech Corps rate for technology is 3M/100. It has been for more than half a year. Additionally, there is quite the healthy retirement bonus, presently and since the beginning of the Tech Corps. You know all about that though, since you were in the Tech Corps for quite a while. Also, let's just pretend you were buying at 3M/100. You get more profit than 750K. If you're only getting 750K, you're doing it wrong. No one is "forced" to go into the Tech Corps. Like every single job in the Order, it is one that one applies and volunteers for. You're lying. Straight and simple. Your understanding of how rebuilding aid works is terribly ... terrible. There's little point in sending aid to large nations, who can do little with it, when you can send it to small nations, who can do much with it. I've studied alliance economics for a very long time; the NPO has never done anything like what you describe and I can never imagine a scenario where we would do what you describe. But you're just here to complain and whine about the NPO. Perhaps you could make a reasoned and rational critique of some processes of the NPO, but if you wanted to do that, you could have done so within our walls, respectfully and with the comraderie we expect from all our members. But you can't and you won't do that, so you're out here lying. Have fun with that.

*chuckles* Firstly, and this is a common mistake, it's "Cortath." It sounds like the word "Core" and "tath" where tath rhymes with bath. Secondly, beats me why he didn't know why he was banned. If he asked me, I would have told him. He didn't ask me, and I don't know of him asking anyone else. Thirdly, I think it's clear that we didn't "expect" Bragg to continue fighting after he was banned. He's a traitor. We don't expect traitors to fight for us. Fourthly, I'd just like to note that General Bragg received aid from the New Pacific Order May 1, and then twice again in May 2. So let's just put things in perspective: he complains all about aid and how he doesn't get any. He gets his aid in a pretty timely manner, and then comes here and complains about not getting aid, among other things.

This is false. I took the liberty of finding your last few posts on our forums. Your last posts include you cursing at the aforementioned comrade who offered you aid but then retracted it, while that comrade posted an apologetic explanation to which you did not respond. You insulted a comrade who was in peace mode for obvious and explained reasons. You aggressively argued against a comrade who did not want to surrender. You also cursed at Bankers in the Aid forum when making an aid request. You insulted a Colonel for being in peace mode, even though he explained to you that he was in peace mode to be reserved for the second strike, and lo and behold, he is now fighting very well in the second strike. I have little sympathy for you. Prior to April, I had nothing but respect for your service to Pacifica, and as comrades in war for so long, it is difficult for such a short amount of time to erode the comraderie we have developed, but you are making a good effort.

While I am a Dune fan, I must admit being puzzled by a "ducal monarchy." I don't think there is a such a thing. I think there are duchies and there are monarchies and one cannot be both.

Are your ears the "being" that controls your IC character? Mine would probably be my gall bladder.