Waterana

The terms are evidence enough. The fact the alliances at war with us refuse to negotiate with our government is evidence enough. The continuous bluster from Karma and its supporters that 'NPO deserves these terms and can afford it' when we've shown over and over they're impossible for us to honour within the restrictions (not pay, as I've said before) is evidence enough. If you want proof so badly, go read any recent thread with NPO in the title. Its all there, over and over. I don't have to prove anything to you. The hate from most of you for anyone with NPO in their AA is so intense I strongly suspect you'd not believe anything I said anyway. You go on that I'm not backing up my opinions, well that is because it is opinion. I firmly believe everything I've typed. The evidence for it is all around me. Karma can't be believed and can't be trusted. They won't stop this war because of fear. The irrational fear we'll 'come get em' at some point in the future.

ShinRa, The terms themselves are all the proof I need. The rest of what you are saying is the same stuff I've heard 100 times already in the many threads concerning them and us. Those terms are so harsh not to punish us or as revenge for whatever you think we've been guilty of in the past, but so we'd be sure to reject them. Can't keep us at war forever if we accept peace can you, so Karma, or the bits of it at war with us anyway, had to ensure we would reject them. They succeeded. The terms are a lie, and were never a half hearted, let alone serious attempt to end this war. Obviously keeping us at war permanently is the real punishment, and the reason the current joke terms are not negotiable is because they've done their job and given Karma all the ammunition it needs to keep fighting. The reps are not impossible, the conditions under which we can pay them make it impossible for us to pay the required amount in the allotted time. If you want the ins and outs of that, go find a post by Cortath and read the links in his sig. He's a lot better placed to know what the NPO is capable of money and tech wise, being one of the economics IO's, than the biased Karma people who being outsiders wouldn't have a clue about our economical position, but post as if they do. I haven't demanded a damm thing, except the truth from Karma. Obviously that is something you'll never give. All the other stuff has been debated to death elsewhere, and like I said to the other guy, I aren't giving you any more troll food.

No we can't because Karma will make damm sure the war never ends.

Oh please, the terms are part of the con. You had to offer something, as some of the more moderate alliances both within and without Karma were beginning to rumble about it. Karma just made damm sure the terms would be rejected by us, and you'd get a PR boost into the bargain, so the eternal war could happen without interference.

I say the terms are a lie. Karma wants us gone. Disbanded and gone. Those terms aren't a punishment, aren't revenge, aren't justification for anything. They are fake, false, a lie. The only outcome any of you will be satifsfed with is eternal war that will lead, you hope, to the NPO ceasing to exist and as many of it's members as possible leaving the game. Those terms are simply a PR stunt so Karma can claim 'well we tried, but they said no, so it's their fault the war is continuing'. As I said before, it would have really upset the Karma game plan if Moo had accepted them. You'd had to have made up another acceptable by the world at large excuse to keep the war going then, and I'm sure there were several backup plans ready just in case. I've heard all the accusations, umpteen times, and other Pacificans have answered them over and over again for the last 3 months. I'm not going to feed you any more troll food. Long as Karma continues to peddle the 'NPO is to blame for the war continuing because they won't accept our 'reasonable (read impossible) terms', I'll continue to scream lies.

For heavens sake, stop lying. It is getting old. The reasoning behind our 'terms' is so we'd reject them and Karma could keep the war going. Nothing more or less. All this other crap is a smoke screen to try to justify their sentence of eternal war. Give up the theatrics already and just admit it.

Yep, the true intent of those 'terms' was rejection by us, so they could continue the war and blame us for it at the same time. Pretty clever I'll admit. The truth is slowly coming out of them now though. Karma want us gone, no ifs buts or maybes. They won't feel 'safe' until the NPO no longer exists so they're going to continue this war indefinitely in a bid to wear us down to the point of disbandment. The excuse for that they're already using of course is, as someone above who's name I can't remember has already stated, that apparently, we did it to others so it's justified in their eyes doing it to us. Fear is a powerful thing. Though I find it funny Karma are so scared of us in our current state and think the NPO is magically going to rebuild and 'come get them'. It ain't gonna happen. Besides, we won't need to 'come get em'. Give it 6 to 12 months and Karma alliances will be busy killing each other. I intend to still be around then to cheer from the sidelines as each one falls.

We know white peace is out of the question. Sheesh, Karma want eternal war, and have wanted it from the start, so why would I even think there is a snowballs chance in hell of that ever happening. So why all the bluster about us not accepting those ridiculous terms? Would have really upset the game plan for you lot if Moo had signed off on them.

I'd like Karma to admit that eternal war was their goal from the get go, rather than continue to try to blame a defeated alliance for not ending the war by accepting terms written to be rejected. Would be refreshing to see some truth come out of them for once.

These terms were never meant to be accepted and were offered only as a PR stunt. Maybe when those of you still at war with us finally admit that we can all get on with the eternal war you've wanted from the start. Karma will never let us rebuild because they are too afraid we'll come for them at some point. That fear will ensure this war never ends because the only acceptable outcome for Karma, where they'll feel 'safe' is the NPO's disbandment.

Well, I wish you the best of luck on that, but don't like your chances .

The banks have not been ordered out of peace mode. A small number of nations that should be fighting, but aren't, have been ordered out. Bilrow broke down the numbers in another thread, but I couldn't be bothered looking for it. Doubt you'd believe me anyway.

The alliances fighting us don't want us to rebuild, they want us disbanded and dead because they're petrified we're going to wave some magic wand and make our isolated politically bankrupt alliance capable of wiping them all out on our own at some point in the future. As I said in my last post, their only motivation is fear. Why do you think they want to kill our bank nations so badly? Easy, to remove our remaining strength and make it impossible for us to pay the reps in the allowed time and under the tight restrictions, let alone rebuild. The terms were meant to be rejected so the war can continue. I very much doubt Karma will ever even consider any plan that lets us live in peace. It just won't happen. I appreciate you're trying to find a solution, but hammering yourself on the Karma brick wall won't change their minds on this.

This whole discussion is a waste of time, not to mention a rehash of the 50 threads already open on the subject. Karma offered terms designed to be rejected. You lot already knew we wouldn't give you our banks, as was made plain when we also said no thanks to that pre terms rubbish. Personally, I don't listen to or believe any Karma leaders anymore. The members of the alliances against us are a lot more willing to call a spade a spade without worrying about PR or what their fellow Karma alliances will think of them, and aren't shy in saying exactly what is in store for us. The leaders want the same thing but are just being extra sneaky about it, hence these terms. Yes we can afford the reps, but not with dead banks and restrictions on who can pay them. I do believe very strongly Karma want NPO disbanded and gone with as many of our members leaving the game as possible. Why? Simple, fear. Pure irrational, paranoid, idiotic, fear. Made this picture a few days ago, it illustrates Karma, and the 'can't let them survive, they'll rebuild and kill us' attitude, and why is so stupid, to a T.

Bartley, well said. I left the NPO just over a year ago and went to Valhalla. Lasted 5/6 weeks and was so homesick for Pacifica that I asked chefjoe for permission to leave to alliance while it was at war to return. Valhalla is a great alliance with many wonderful people in it, but I missed the camaraderie, community, and just being a part of such a close knit group of amazing people.

Talk is talk not action. Come on, take a close look at the state of the NPO right now, both militarily and politically. Do you honestly believe we'll have the capacity, even if given white peace (yes, I know that won't happen, is only for argument's sake) to carry out any sort of 'revenge' driven attacks on any of you. Especially considering we have few allies left, most of bob don't want to know us, and the bulk of karma are allied to each other seven ways from sunday, so any attack on one of you would be bound to bring the rest in, again. It isn't 06 anymore, GW1 is long over, and the political scene on bob now is a lot different to what it was back then. This abject terror from a lot of you of us rising up and destroying you is laughable at best.

This massive fear that we're going to rebuild too quickly and come looking for vengeance is so funny. How exactly are we going to do that? Our alliance is crushed. Our allies mostly gone. Q is gone. Agora is gone. OV is mostly gone. So are you lot really peeing your Depends in terror over some sort of fantasy that we'll rebuild, even back to number 1 status, and fight 2 thirds of bob again, on our own? Seriously, think about it and get a grip.

Wow, you have a wonderful imagination. Where the hell did I mention recruiting?

They don't want the small nations to pay the tech reps because they know full well with our current army of procurer size nations, including knocked down ex big now small nations, such as mine, we can pump out a lot of tech easily, and quickly have those reps paid off. Just another way to twist the knife and drag out the whole ordeal for as long as possible while trying, but failing, to look like they're doing us a favour.

It is good to see the Elysium name again mhawk, and thank you .

Thank you .

I enjoyed that read. Didn't seem too biased, and was well written. Please keep this going Stumpy.

Congratulations .

What mob? There are around 900 nations in the NPO, how many of them expressed their opinions in that thread? Note the word opinions. Let me burst the 'mob' bubble. The NSO doesn't worry me. I don't see it or Ivan as a threat. Don't know him at all, and have never worked with him, but I find it very hard to believe that someone who helped found the Order, lead it in it's early months including through a devestating major war then worked hard to rebuild from that devestation, and has never, to my knowledge, said or done anything ever with the express purpose of harming the Order, would now found a new alliance and attempt to do just that. So there you have it. No hate, no fear, no frothing at the mouth. Sorry to disappoint those of you convinced all Pacificans are brainwashed drones who all think the same.

Happy Birthday Valhalla . and many more. Love you all.