Waterana

We'll still be here, free and fighting hard, so it's a date.

You wanted peace? We don't have the monopoly on arrogance. Plenty on your side are displaying a ton of it too. Including in this thread. I've had a chat with a Spartan in query. He was pretty honest in why the alliances fighting us want us to surrender so badly, and accept the current terms as written. It has nothing to do with all the bluster about past crimes, or any of that rubbish being used as propaganda. It does have a lot to do with what I've been saying all along, fear. You do want us destroyed, and expect us to sign off on those terms, then lie down and let you get on with it. Dream on. Right now we're still a free alliance making our own decisions. Our alliance strength has bottomed out and has begun to rise again (might explain some of the renewed pressure on us to surrender) and morale within the NPO is still very high. We've had some leave, true, but they aren't being missed. Let me explain something. For an alliance to accept surrender terms, those terms have to be a better option for the defeated alliance than continuing to fight. The terms you've offered us are much worse for us than continuing to fight, so we continue to fight. We have been thoroughly militarily defeated. Why the hell would we accept terms that's main clause result in us losing more alliance strength? No alliance with any sense of duty towards its members would accept such a thing. Would you? Surrender is supposed to end a war, not require the defeated alliance to remove their mouth guard so the enemy can get a few more punches in and remove some teeth. I read somewhere that our banks would be expected to disarm first as per the surrender terms, and not be allowed to defend themselves in any way during this 2 weeks war as per the surrender terms. Is this true?

Save the venom for someone who cares. I already know you despise anyone with NPO in their AA. It doesn't bother me. It isn't a lie, but as you're a hater, I don't expect you to believe that.

Do not tell me to shut up thank you very much. I have as much right to speak out and state my opinion on any topic on this forum as you do, or anyone else for that matter. If you don't like what I have to say, tough. I will not go into details of my statement in this thread. Have already done that in one of the 50 NPO related discussions.

Thank you Grub. Despite the distance between the Orders, I appreciate you making that post.

I'm not going into our terms here, this is Echelon's thread. Have explained my reasoning behind that statement in another thread. If you care enough to want to know which one, PM me and I'll link you to it.

I don't give a damm who's driving. Karma needs to give up any claims to being better, higher, or more moral than the Hegemony side of this war. These harsh unwarranted terms have just ground that pretense into dust. I expected harsh terms for the NPO, and wasn't disappointed. Eternal war is harsh as you can get. However Echelon doesn't deserve this crap for nothing more than honouring a treaty and entering a war to defend an ally.

Echelon did NOT start this war, and no amount of propaganda or dredging up past history will change that fundamental fact. All you've done is forced them to agree to a lie. NPO made the first declaration and fired the first shot. Karma attacked us, Echelon then entered to defend us. There is no way in hell any amount of spin is going to turn that into Echelon starting the war.

After reading those crappy disgusting 'terms', I am now fully convinced that our side can no longer be called the Hegemony, because another group has claimed the name. Though they'll have to be known as Hegemony 2 of course. That name rolls of the tongue a lot easier than Non-Karma Karmaites. Well done, you've kept the cart and just changed drivers. In time, when those of you on that side, whether you call yourselves Karma or not, are busy trying to wipe each other out, I hope these terms, and those you you have in store for TPF which I don't expect will be any different to these, not to mention the fake terms those fighting us are trying to inflict on the NPO right now, come back to bite all of you firmly in the rear end. Now that will be Karma. So using that logic, all the alliances fighting us right now, except OV, are guilty of starting their wars? Interesting.

Not that I can remember, and I think I'd remember going to war with Legion's (the alliance I was with on and off for over 12 months before joining the Order) closest ally. Was in ODN for 5 days right before joining NPO. Can't remember a war with the Order then either. Do you mean the citrus war? Hell, that war is ancient history. Well, duh. Think we've figured that one out for ourselves. Well as Karma have thrown the surrender ball into our court and washed their hands of it, I'd say it is us in control. Yes, I know you consider impossible to honour surrender terms 'fair'. We know they are a death sentence. Eternal war was the aim from the beginning and I've yet to see a convincing statement to the contrary. Just lots of 'well you deserve it, now accept the terms'. The old hidden bank thing. Only one response to that . Our alliance strength has bottomed out pretty much and is starting to rise again. What do we have to be scared of? Eternal war with a foe that doesn't want peace maybe. We aren't scared, we're mostly angry at Karma and bored with this war. It is your side that constantly brings up GW1 and goes on how we need to be totally crushed/disbanded/kept under terms forever (or whatever other inventive things Karma members have come up with over the last few months) because most of you are petrified we'll rise up and kill you all. The very idea of that deserves another one of these

Do you have any idea how loud the happy cheering was within the NPO when GGA cut their last ties with us? We love Legion as friends, not puppets. Know that is hard for you to understand, but it's true. If they want to kill the treaty with us, if they were forced into signing it, if they feel in any way that being tied to us is a bad thing, don't you think the treaty between both alliances would have been canceled before the war started? Or now? We're not the big scary boogyman anymore. Funny, many of our members don't like ODN too much, can't remember killing them recently, or within the 2 years I've been in the Order for that matter. Can't remember us signing a treaty with them either. They seem to be alive and well today. Just one example off the top of my head.

So are the alliance that fought right beside us in the past, including several of those at war with us now, going to pay their share of reps too, and be punished right alongside us for these 'sins'? We didn't do any of this on our own. I love the way NPO is being blamed for anything bad that has happened on bob for the last 3 years from GW1 to someone's grandmother's cat getting hit by a car, and treated as though we did it all alone. Nobody else was at our side. No other alliances names are on any of these harsh terms surrender documents, and all our allies were braindead puppets that said and did only what we told them to [/sarcasm]. Like others have asked, I'd really like to see this list of 'crimes' we're being punished for in regards to those 'terms'. [OOC]PS, I'm a her. Know a lot of females on the net don't care being called a him. I do. Old woman syndrome I guess[/OOC}

When we're offered real terms instead of a loop hole ridden impossible to honour load of rubbish, I'm sure our government will seriously consider doing just that.

We've already taken our lumps. It's called losing 20 million alliance strength, most of our allies, and all our political capital. We are defeated, beaten, have lost the war. As I've said 100 times, fear is the sole motivating factor in these fake terms and the refusal of the alliances fighting us to show any sign they are truly interested in peace. Nothing we can say or do, outside disbandment which won't happen, will satisfy Karma and leave them feeling 'safe'.

I'm not government. Accepting terms isn't up to me. I find it impossible to believe there is any way the terms would get 'lighter' considering the number of times our government has been told the current set are not negotiable. Azhrarn, he's not NPO. Save that bile for me and other NPO members.

I've never used the 'tears' statement. Find it stupid personally.

You don't need to. The current false terms have done their job. The eternal war is underway. I've been in peace mode for a whole 10 days the entire war. Sorry, my nation isn't a bank. Good try though. You entirely missed the point of that. Not surprised. So many Karmaites never read past our AA.

Sorry, double posted somehow.

Please, with loopholes large enough to drive a semi-trailer through, plus strict restrictions on who can pay reps despite time requirements and beaten down banks, it has been pointed out ad-nausem to you lot that we wouldn't be able to pay the required amount in the required time. Of course, the terms are a farce anyway, so it isn't like it matters. You lot get your eternal war with our without us accepting it. If Karma truly want an end to this war, and the opportunity to lord it over a subjugated NPO, then it is up to you lot to find a way to do it. Not ours. Like you keep trying to tell us, you're in control, right?

Slow growth and development would be fine, in fact a vast improvement on the certain resumption of war the offered terms would result in.

You've given us peace? When? All I've seen is offered terms that were only offered so we'd reject them and you could continue to wage eternal war against us. Realised today something important though, will go into that in a bit. Karma never intended to give us peace right from the word go. The over riding thing I've seen from many of you is fear. Pure fear. Karma is way too afraid we'll rebuild and come looking for payback to ever consider giving us any way out of this. Any of you stating that all we have to do is be humble little penitents, and you might let us live if you're feeling generous enough are spouting rubbish. We know there is no way the alliances fighting us will stop. Fear, fear Fear. That's ok though. By giving us terms you all knew in advance we'd say no to, you've fallen into the same trap we did with FAN. Another thing Karma keep reminding us of is you've won the war. Yes, we know that and have admitted defeat both officially and unofficially. You also keep telling us you are in control and we have no say in anything, wrong. By giving us those joke terms, and putting the onus on us to accept or deny them, plus continuing to play the 'benevolent victor' card, you also gave us the drivers seat and the keys. You aren't in control anymore, we are. It is our decisions that will determine how the war plays out from now, not yours. We did the same thing with FAN. For all our bluster against them, with the exception of hitting any of them to come out of peace mode, we had no control over them or that war. They had the power and played out the war to suit themselves. You've done the same with us. Thanks.

Thank you Vol Navy. I appreciate it that you gave me the Atlantis information I was asking for, but was ignored by those Karmaites I asked in favour of more accusations and bile. Namely the date this incident happened. Now I have a starting point to do some forum searches, both here and on our own boards and can learn more of this supposed 'sin'.

If you look at my join date for this forum compared to my post count, you'll notice that I'm not exactly one of the most' out and about' members. In fact, I've posted more on this forum in the last couple of days than the last 12 months. So, no, sorry, I know little about Atlantis. My focus is usually internal to my alliance and its allies, and Atlantis was never one of them. I'm not a diplomat, not government, and don't sit in tons of other alliance's IRC rooms or join their forums. Yes, I know of the other two alliances. They are part of the Karma group who are waging eternal war against us now. We fought GR sometime in the past, it has ex NAAC members in it, don't know how many, and it's on blue. I watched the VE war and their disbandment from Legion, was upset by it and thought the whole war stupid and un-necessary, then cheered when they reformed and we signed a treaty with them. Was happy to see them back then, and that was really dumb of me considering what they're doing now. I asked a question, which none of you are willing to answer. If Karma does want an end to this war, and I am totally wrong, then surely an agreement is possible where we get to survive, and you lot get this stupid fear of us in the future allayed. The current terms can never be accepted, all of you must realise that by now

I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked a question, which you didn't answer. I'd barely heard of Atlantis. Why would I be expected to know anything about them until you accused us of being responsible for their demise? I've seen accusations that we've destroyed this and that alliance, but not this one until your posts today. Perhaps if you'd answered that question, I'd have a starting point to begin looking.

I'll use a favorite NPO hater answer to your post. Stockholm syndrome? You only left us yesterday and the venom is spewing out already. So, is that an admission that I'm right in my beliefs that eternal war was the goal from the start, the terms are a lie, and were written to be rejected so the war could continue? PS, I don't know zip about Atlantis. Certainly don't remember going to war with them. When exactly were we supposed to have done this?