Waterana

Wow, do you have some catching up to do. We got past the 'pride' thing ages ago. I'll help. All members of the NPO have seen these terms, they are posted on our forum. The BR of the NPO back our leaders 100% in saying hell no to these terms.

That is a load of rot. Everything will have to go into reps, which have to be paid under other stupid restrictions that will ensure we can't make the payments. Sorry, but I trust Cortath on this, not outsiders. He's in our alliance and has a much better idea of what we can do than anyone outside it. There will be little rebuilding. The small nations can't even do tech deals internally due to the aid slot crap. What's left of the large ones will be too busy pumping out money and stripping themselves of their own tech to have slots or aid to spare for the rest of us. This makes me laugh, on the one side we have people trying to tell us reps will be paid off quickly and it will be a doddle, and then others saying the terms were written deliberately to keep our economy low for as long as possible and restrict rebuilding so we couldn't 'rebuild and come kill em'. So which is it?

The do want to destroy us. Cripple us to the point of disbandment if they can, and 'keep the NPO down so it can never be a threat again'. Several of them have said as much on these forums. How do you think they're going to do that, rainbows and kittens? Why? Fear. Apparently we're going to come back and 'kill em all'. Stupid, just stupid. If they'd stop running around waving their arms in the air peeing their panties in abject terror for 2 minutes and look at our situation in the light of today, not of where we were in the past, or where they think we'll be in the future, but where we are right now, maybe they'd realise they're petrified of what equals a cat in a storm drain. We've paid the price for our past sins. 20 million AS gone, a third of our members gone, most of our allies gone, our blocs gone, our political capital gone, most of our nations devastated, and that's still not enough to satisfy the blood lust. The alliances fighting us expect us to sign terms that will only result in more destruction, and a quick return to full war anytime they choose via the massive loop holes they left open for that purpose. We will never get peace. We know that. The terms we've seen are written to ensure that. Why the hell would we surrender and willingly hand over what strength we have left to a blood thirsty mob, when it is much less damaging to our alliance to keep on fighting. So as I said before, if karma wants the NPO destroyed, they'll have to do it themselves. We aren't going to do it for them.

No, accepting these terms would be stupid. If you want our alliance destroyed, do it yourself. Don't expect us to do it for you.

I don't have anything to do with drafting terms, sheesh, those were just examples and only from me, not the alliance. What is expecting too much? Wanting terms that won't leave my alliance a wrecked crippled shambles in a years time, or even ground down to disbandment? A peace that's a REAL peace, and not simply a one sided continuation of the war under another name? I'm not asking for white peace, nothing close. Edit: Ok, have just read where you explained what the problem with my post was. Would have been easier if you'd just said so in the one I answered I don't know what this second set of terms will contain. In fact, only place I've heard they even exist is on this forum, so aren't holding my breath they are real. I do hope so, but we'll have to see. The tech reps payment restrictions, and the internal aid restrictions (to limit rebuilding aid and tech deals within the alliance) are also a good reason to say no to those terms, but that is coming only from me. Those two clauses plus the extra war are the only part of the terms we have now that I don't like and would love to see gone. If it all happens, great, but if it takes a compromise on the first two to save the banks, then that will still stink and still be un-necessary, but personally, I'd consider it acceptable.

If we get offered a good peace, and I aren't holding my breath, I bet our government will jump at the chance to get us all out of this war. We aren't suicidal either. We want peace. We just want a real one where the fighting and damage stops from the moment they are signed, give us massive reps, restrict our military, suspend our treaties, personally I don't care about any of that. But a big no to handing over any of our nations for more war, and a big no to stripping our big nations of their remaining tech by forbidding small nations to pay tech reps. That isn't peace. The full terms are posted on our forum. We've all seen them. The BR is fully behind our leaders in saying no to them.

Shrug, you seem to think we're continuing the war just to spite you or because we're too stubborn to accept your terms. As has been explained to you, again and again and again. Continuing the war is our only option. The terms will destroy us, as they are designed to do and several of your fellows have admitted. Cripple us and 'keep us down' so we can no longer be a 'threat'. It is the paranoid fear from your side of the fence that is keeping the war going, not us. Long as the terms are so much more devastating for our alliance than continuing to fight, we'd be fools to accept them. I don't know why you can't get that. Is your hate really so deep you are going to continue to push the line that we should, under a peace agreement, kill our alliance just to satisfy your blood lust and inability to hurt/weaken us any other way? Our leaders aren't stupid. Our members aren't stupid. Your peace isn't a peace, it is a underhanded continuation of the war, only this time our nations will be under the thumb and can't fight back. We'd be 24 carat idiots to accept these terms.

Where have I whined about them continuing to war us? I enjoy war. It is the terms that have been on the receiving end of my ire. Well, certain parts of them.

We're still fighting. What do you think?

Each side has it's opinions on the terms and why they are fair and unfair. Your side likes to throw up past events as justification, ours wants to survive and not be crippled to the point of destruction. Your side thinks we should just accept these terms out of shame and as some sort of atonement for the past, ours wants to survive and not be crippled to the point of destruction. I could go on, but won't bother. The terms have been rejected, not put aside for revisiting without change at a later date, but totally and irrevocably rejected. The terms as written will never be accepted, no matter how much they are shoved under our nose.

The terms aren't fair. aren't reasonable, and you aren't getting our banks. Maybe you should accept that.

Fine, I made a mistake. Sorry, its late here. Those who fought/are fighting us and Echelon. Better?

My posts are aimed at those fighting us and Echelon. I don't think ODN fought Echelon, but know they never fought us.

Seriously, You (those who fought us and Echelon) have people who fought on the Karma side of the war calling you out for the terms you've given/presented to us. They have no love for us. They are just as quick to condemn us for our past 'crimes' as you are. Some of them are past victims of our 'crimes'. The reason they're not happy is Karma was presented at the start of this war as the end of the hegemony and tyranny, a new beginning. No more of this stuff. Yes, I know, some of you are now stating you never agreed with that, but none of you said so at the start. Only once you had us down did it emerge. Continuing to try to answer our rejection of your terms, which are something not seen before nor something ever given by us to others, with a 'no U' mentality is stupid. These terms are designed to continue the war after the peace, both the extra war and tech reps restriction are there to deal out more damage, as you can't really hurt us anymore by fighting us out in the open. Yes, you won the war and have a right to give us whatever terms you like, just as we have the right to say no thanks and complain about it. That was presented during the war, not as a peace term.

I asked you to show me where we've done to others what you would like to do to us. Of course you can't, because we never forced any alliance to continue to sacrifice their nations after peace had been signed. Lets not forget the other gems in that document designed to assist the process.

Please show me the surrender document where we've ever required an alliance to present any number of their nations for extra weeks of war. Nations that under other clauses of the document would also be not allowed to fight back (being hostile is a no no under the first clause of the same document), have no military improvements (under another clause of the same document), and have no military except a few soldiers (under another clause of the same document). Nowhere in the terms are there any exceptions to the clauses above for our 'sacrificial lambs', so we can only conclude there are none. And you wonder why our government, backed by the BR, said no. Yes, the NPO has done some crappy things in the past, as I've already said in Grub's thread, but while doing this to us, if there was any chance in hell we'd accept it, may make you feel some small degree of satisfaction, don't be surprised that others, even those from your own side, are calling you out for it. The hostility they're beginning to garner for their troubles tells me that people aren't as free to speak out as touted in this brave new world. So, when's the next shark week? Edited to add quote. Posting while half asleep isn't a good thing.

Shrug, could have fooled me.

I was in Legion for GW3 and a couple of months afterwards. There were no tech reps required. There was an option to send tech instead of cash, 50 for 3 million, but we were ordered by Legion govt not to do that so tech from us wouldn't be adding to their strength. The response was 'let them buy their own damm tech'. As I was ZIed in that war, I did tech deals (aid wasn't restricted in or out of the Legion) and sent it to the big nations in return for them sending a cash reps payment. If NPO doesn't get out until the next big war, fine. The terms presented to us have been rejected. No amount of increasingly deperate demands from our enemies is going to change our minds on that. If you want to destroy our alliance, you'll have to work for it. We aren't going to do it for you by accepting those impossible destructive terms.

What they're looting is mostly their fellow members previously stolen cash/tech. Not exactly a lot of our own left after this long at war.

We know karma won, duh, we are the best position to know. You only get your loot if we give it to you. As thing stand now, you aren't getting zip.

That's not a threat for pete's sake. It says what it says. Sparta can't expect special treatment, or anyone thinking they're second only to Jesus, just because they're not accepting reps. Whoop de Doo on that. They are an enemy, same as the others. Have been from the start, will be for the future as we're still at war with them and all signs point to us staying that way indefinetly. Does that sound better?

Sorry, Sparta is one of our enemies, just like the others. You don't get to sit up on a pedestal just because you aren't taking reps. Sparta is fully involved in drawing up these terms, and attempting to push them on us such as you've been doing in this thread. We don't care if you get any money or not, makes no difference to us. You are one of them, always were, always will be.

Yes, I misread it. Am so sorry for that, will go edit that post.

Continuing to fight ensures our survival. Accepting those terms ensures our destruction, which is what they were written to do. What else can you do to us now? Chip away at our AS, the terms would dump it. Nuke ZIed nations just to kill their tech, about the only way you can chip away our AS. Watch your small nations get beat up and constantly send them aid, well that doesn't hurt us and gives us cash to steal so please don't stop. Slowly lose the PR war on these forums, yes, that is beginning now. When STA members come in here and say 'enough is enough', considering what the majority of them think of us, you must be doing something wrong. There is really nothing concrete you can do to hurt us as things stand now. So please explain to me why continuing the war won't get us anywhere? Edit Edited: I can't read.

My nation's strength was 29k at the beginning of this war, it is now just over 1k. I'd call that ruins. Many others are the same or worse than that. Those nations sitting peacefully and that haven't seen war at all are mostly banks. They are supposed to be sitting peacefully, it's their job. No Pacifican begrudges that or feels upset about it. If our enemies are miffed they can't touch their tech, then we're happy about that too. In our situation, you have to find satisfaction where you can after all. In all sincerity, thank you for saying that. It is a refreshing change. Pacifican government are keeping us out of harms way, by refusing these terms which are a far worse outcome for all of us than continuing to fight. If they did accept these terms as written, and we've been constantly told the terms are not negotiable, then I suspect there would be a huge backlash from the BR and many people leaving in disgust. I'd be one of them. Only one member of our government, to my knowledge, isn't fighting and it is because he's a bank. Moo hasn't seen peace the entire war. I don't know where you got the idea our government aren't fighting. Believe me, they are, and hard. Just ask any of Mary's opponents .