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On the Crime of Aggression


Tromp

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Sometimes when there's a war going on I wonder where all the warmongers went to. Whenever there's peace, you see people complaining of boredom, stagnation and more of that jazz, but as soon as a war starts most everyone turns around and becomes a critic. No reason cited is good enough to start a war, even though admin has provided us with little to work with. Isn't that odd? Really, people should accept that the game itself will not give us a lot of causes for war, and that some roleplay simply is necessary to keep everyone interested.

For those who want to simulate politics, social interaction is a vital aspect of this game. There is a need for diversity, not just in emotions and morality, but also in actual behaviour and positioning. Too often we see people parrotting each other, without putting in some effort to reach an own conclusion and act accordingly, or you see people being influenced because of peer pressure. I'd like to tackle one issue which has been annoying to me personally, and that is the idea that (a war of) agression is a crime.

Purely seen from an OOC viewpoint: I literally can't think of any reason why one would want a world in which there is no conflict, other then statcollecting. If that's what CN was supposed to be or become, I'm glad it nowadays isn't, because it certainly isn't my idea of fun. Perhaps there's more to it, who would care to enlighten me on that point?

So yeah, I'm simply not seeing why war in general should be regarded as something bad in a world with infinite resources, where nations can't be exterminated and where there is no nor will there be an 'end'. Those who think war is bad, that aggression is bad, are carrying real life values over into a nationsimulator that is significantly different from the world we know and thus should be treated differently.

I contend that war, that being the result of competition, of strife, of conflict, is good. Anything a person does, who is not a neutral, is something that contributes to the eventual outcome of every form politicking, namely war. It is, ultimately, your destiny to be fighting wars, be they mentally via diplomacy, or be they physically via the destruction of pixels.

To object to war is to say essentially that you don't like the eventual outcome of said war. It is true, morality and the quest for what people perceive to be justice in general is little more then a cover up for weakness, and is meant to give the selfappointed victim a boost in selfesteem. Additional effects this may have are, among others, pity and hatred for victim and perpetrator. All of this is part of the greater struggle for power in this world, to say otherwise would be a lie.

Since war is inevitable on Bob, there is always some alliance that is going to make the first shot. Before I move on, I want to make a minor point.

What precedes this first shot is always the interbellum, a period in which all alliances enjoy (relative) peace to prepare for the next war. Most often during these periods of peace, acts of aggression do occur, yet they are not being responded to with force. Aggressiveness is thus not limited to war only. Now, I'm not going into full detail of what an alliance does or should do at such a point in time, the only point I wanted to make for now is that an alliance who sits still and does little to improve its position is simply asking for trouble, in the same way as an alliance that does too much is asking for trouble, as we are in a world that is characterized by hostility towards one another.

Anyway, to fire the first shot doesn't necessarily mean it makes you the aggressor and thus 'wrong' by default. As mentioned earlier there is always a larger context in which that first shot must be placed, but the focus of people on that first shot while at the same time disregarding the context creates a narrowminded worldview in which little makes sense anymore; where wars are being fought over seemingly next to nothing. However, it is actually very rare that a war is being fought over nothing, even though it appears some people think this is happening, or even would like to see it happen. In reality, war is diplomacy by other means, so when it comes to the point of war this is merely a sign that two parties have conducted diplomacy, and eventually clashed so hard when wielding their power, that they both failed to preserve the peace, not just one of them.

Whether one should label the alliance firing the first shot as "aggressor" is depending on your perspective, in the same way the "justness" of a war is mostly in the eye of the beholder. I have not seen or experienced a universally accepted standard as to what constitutes a legit CB, there will simply always be people who disagree. The question which side is "just" usually shifts to who is winning, be it the perceived defender or be it the aggressor, furthermore an indication that objective justice does not exist. And these positions of aggressor and defender may change over the course of a war, the most notable examples of this being the Karma war and the BiPolar war, where the initial attackers ("aggressors") became defenders later on and vice versa.

What can be concluded from this all is that aggression is not a crime and most importantly, that a defender isn't in the right by default either.

Unless there is an effort to establish a universal standard for CBs that succeeds, I don't see a future in which anyone can claim the objective moral high ground, or justness of a cause.

The only thing I am damn sure of is that aggression is what makes this world go round.

Luckely.

===

I feel like I should elaborate on some points, such as the Interbellum and Just War tradition, but these are subjects that deserve their own blog. Maybe I'll get to it some time.

For now, I just wanted to offer an expantion to the argument Azaghul made here under "What's wrong now".

To those who have read this, I hope you enjoyed it and will share your thoughts. :)

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war is not inherently bad. sadly, the way that CN is currently set up, wars *are* pointless as they are merely due to personality or philosophy differences rather than an actual competition for resources. taking resources away from someone else in war only makes you a target for the next one, with no advantage other than temporary bragging rights. we had a rogue 150k NS nation go down to less than 15k NS in under 2 weeks of war - 3 years worth of effort down the drain, and for what ?

i'm not necessarily faulting the game designers for this, btw. i *like* the fact that i can 'play' without sacrificing every spare minute, a la evony. i *like* the fact that no one can really get so far ahead that they can curbstomp all comers, a la battle stations. i *like* the fact that while you can happily play along solo, this game is much better with alliance mates.

that said, if this is supposed to be a political simulator, the incessant focus on war, either the waging of it, or the avoidance of it, seems pretty asinine from my perspective. if war isn't to be the main focus, then the game mechanics need to reward other political operations beyond war. why are spy ops limited ? why are events predicated on a random fashion, rather than being based on the choices that we make in the game ? e.g., if i choose to trade for coal, why shouldn't i be more at risk of getting a toxic smog event that i have to respond to ? if i lose access to wheat, why can't i get more risk of a food riot ? why not an event every 10 days ? if i join an alliance, why don't i lose / gain benefits as a result ? why not have conditional foreign aid where the 'aid' is only activated under certain conditions (i.e. something like 'protection' aid, where the $$ only flow if the protectorate is attacked) ?

without such an expansion of the gameplay itself, all of the 'politics' is just posturing. i still continue to play because i enjoy the company of my alliance mates - the game is currently just the water cooler to hang out around.

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Wow - so much to comment on. It's all well written, but you start from some basic assumptions that not everyone would agree with in the least.

1. From an OOC perspective, I personally can't see why ANYONE would prefer "war" in CN over the many many other options out there. All you do is click on buttons on the screen. Can't move around, very limited choice in weapons to use, graphics are just pics - and the same old ones at that. They don't even have a random selection of a few different ones! If you've experienced one war, you've experienced them all. This is, in my opinion, even true as far as politics go. Same arguments, different alliances "on top." Lived through one war and you've seen everything there is to see as far as war goes. Oh, and what is so inherently wrong in carrying real life values into the game. If more people did that, in my opinion, it would be a far better game. This IS supposed to be a "A Nation Simulation Game." Says that right on the introductory screen. With LESS war - maybe it would play out a little MORE like that. However, since it's done so often and without any sense of "wrong" - people are realistically REQUIRED to join an alliance OR be attacked. That being the case, in reality it's more like we're all city states at best. At worst, literally soldiers/individual people. Just because one CAN declare war doesn't mean one MUST. They only advantage I see is that by allowing war as a possibility, there's an element of risk involved in the play that there would not be otherwise. I've always enjoyed trying to avoid war far more than war. It's the harder thing, and thus more of a challenge and a REAL test of skill.

2. The idea that seeking justice is a cover-up for weakness is laughable! One could just as easily argue that war is a cover for weakness. "Only those who have no diplomatic skill resort to war" or "The leader of the nation attacking has no self-control because he/she can't wait and has to play with his/her military toys now." We've all seen nations that seem to fit that mold. They never get to any size because all they want to do is war. You try to have a chat with them, and get insulted in the process. They are the first in anarchy because they spend all their money as opposed to building a war chest. Then they have no clue why their nation gets squished on a regular basis.

A nation's destiny is to be whatever the leader wants it to be. For some people, war is at best a necessary evil. I don't get how that's any more wrong or right than any other goal. If you want to war - fine. That doesn't mean one has any right to define how anyone else must rule their own nation.

3. War is not inevitable. It's not like admin. has decreed that every 6 months or every year there must be a war, otherwise all nations automatically start attacking some random other nation. The only people who force wars on someone else are those that start them - aka: aggressors. I think the question of whether or not aggression is ever "just" (aka: not wrong) is open for debate. Aggression is still forcing war on another, however.

This statement of yours "when it comes to the point of war this is merely a sign that two parties have conducted diplomacy, and eventually clashed so hard when wielding their power, that they both failed to preserve the peace, not just one of them."

I could go out right now and attack/start a war on anyone within range for no reason at all. How does this have anything to do with them? Assuming I could convince my alliance mates that it's a good idea, The Sandwich Confederation could go out and declare war on any other alliance right now - without any warning, without ever having met them - and picked entirely random. How would that have anything to do with them? It would not. Your statement is totally false.

4. There ARE community standards on what IS and IS NOT an appropriate CB and what is and what isn't "aggression." If that were not the case, there wouldn't be any debate because no one would feel the need to change people's perceptions on something that no one has an opinion about.

Finally, aggression does not make the world go round. The would can exist without aggression. What I think makes the world go round are relationships. Aggression is only one type.

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There are two things going on.

One is that you have the usual problem with OOC versus IC. Yes alot of people OOC want to play a game with wars in it, but IC they may be peace-loving people. If everyone played an IC warmonger, then 5K would be high for alliance average NS. ;)

Two is that, yeah, CN is a sucky wargame. So actually alot of people OOC don't really want war, because CN warfare is kinda boring. Arguing is much more fun.

I'm in #2. ;)

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Now, I'm not going into full detail of what an alliance does or should do at such a point in time, the only point I wanted to make for now is that an alliance who sits still and does little to improve its position is simply asking for trouble, in the same way as an alliance that does too much is asking for trouble, as we are in a world that is characterized by hostility towards one another.

However, it is actually very rare that a war is being fought over nothing, even though it appears some people think this is happening, or even would like to see it happen. In reality, war is diplomacy by other means, so when it comes to the point of war this is merely a sign that two parties have conducted diplomacy, and eventually clashed so hard when wielding their power, that they both failed to preserve the peace, not just one of them.

War can be 'Diplomacy by other means' but at least in CN that isn't the case 100% of the time. There are different kinds of alliances, and philosophies on how to run them, and I for one think the variety is far better then if everyone thought the same way all the time.

I've seen people say the NPO and some other AAs "Should have done something to improve their position". I'm not exactly sure what they mean by that, but if you think about it, one of the few scarcities in the game is who is allowed into the dominant grouping at any particular time. MK during the Q heydays certainly didn't have a lot of diplomatic options, did they? CN is like musical chairs in that respect, there are only so many seats to go around. :P

Only rogues ever really attack for no reason at all. The current NPO-DH war was started by an unprovoked attack, but there is certainly tons of previous history that lead to this point.

Now as to whether or not aggression is a crime....I was always taught that the person who resorts to violence, is the person who has run out of options. Not everyone thinks this way though, and given that this is a game, I don't see anything wrong with aggressive play styles. I think it gets the bad label in CN because it goes against the unwritten codes of conduct that have been built up over time(private channels, etc.); also, the bad side effects like the difficultiies of rebuilding and the sheer destructiveness of war somehow get attached to the initial act of starting a war itself. The fact that it has been noted that being on the side perceived as 'defending' gives you an advantage just reinforces the negative impression people have of starting a war.

TLDR: It's become a cultural taboo.

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With respect to wars and attitudes toward them, I've found that wars are most interesting when there's some kind of 'stake' in it for my alliance. The NpO-VE War (which I insist should be separated from the NPO-DH conflict) has failed to fire the imaginations of many alliances beyond a dull "Let's all honor our treaties" kind of attitude.

When I think of wars that piqued my interest, of course Karma comes to mind. Until it was aborted, the Unjust War had a lot of potential as well. Even Great War III: The Search for Spock seemed to generate more genuine interest than recent conflicts.

Courtesy of a treaty web that seems almost incestuous in the way it links far-flung alliances in multiple ways, the prospects for limited war seem rather remote. As long as the web is like that, every war will be a global war. What this means is that the 'big players' will get to decide what the wars look like, while smaller alliances with genuine grievances against others will just have to sit back and 'take it' for fear of having half of CN piling on top of them.

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I get really tired of the morality=pacifist falsehood. Most people regard myself as a moralist and CoJ as a moralist AA. We have 3 optional treaties and we have been in every war that involved any of those three AAs, and in between that we've got in between GOONS and a couple micros without any guarantee of backup, as well as convening a coalition to discuss entry into the GOONS-Ninjas war.

Everyone wants to pigeonhole whole groups of people into their prejudicial stereotypes. Get over it, the world is bigger than "moralist" and "people doing something."

If your only idea of doing something is shooting at things non-stop, then stop playing this geo-political simulator and buy a copy of a first person shooter.

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Wow - so much to comment on. It's all well written, but you start from some basic assumptions that not everyone would agree with in the least.

1. From an OOC perspective, I personally can't see why ANYONE would prefer "war" in CN over the many many other options out there. All you do is click on buttons on the screen. Can't move around, very limited choice in weapons to use, graphics are just pics - and the same old ones at that. They don't even have a random selection of a few different ones!

We don't even get the WHOOSH! sound effect for cruise missiles anymore! D:

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I agree 100%. Sums up my thoughts on the game and how war interacts with it well.

Some morality is OK, but when it gets to the point where it smothering wars politically it is a problem.

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I agree 100%. Sums up my thoughts on the game and how war interacts with it well.

Some morality is OK, but when it gets to the point where it smothering wars politically it is a problem.

where was this attitude in 2006 or 2007 or 2008?

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To those that claim that the war system is simple and boring:

It's a lot less boring and more interesting than CN in peace time. While it's easy to be decent at war or economics there actually is a decent amount of skill required to be very good at it.

Frequent wars are a lot less boring in game than buying infra, tech, and wonders in perpetuity. Politics is a lot less boring when we're not mostly just sitting here and staring at each other.

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where was this attitude in 2006 or 2007 or 2008?

Why do you insist on making this about how things were in the past? I'm sick and tired of nearly every debate on this subject getting pigeon holed into one about Karma.

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I've always enjoyed trying to avoid war far more than war. It's the harder thing, and thus more of a challenge and a REAL test of skill.

Not really, this is what neutral alliances are far. If you really would rather not fight wars, join a neutral alliance.

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Being a successful aggressor is nearly impossible in this game. Everyone loves activating defense treaties to join in on a winning war (see: C&G side in BiPolar), but very few people like joining in on aggression into a potential losing aggressive side (see: CoC in Karma, TOP side in BiPolar).

This stems entirely from what Tromp addresses. The same people who are warmongers in peacetime become pacifists in war. Just look at RV, who was going around saying how awful PB/SF/C&G/etc were, because they weren't doing anything, and how that was what was killing the game. Well, here we are, doing something, and now he is saying how awful PB/SF/C&G/etc are, because by doing this aggressive action we are what is killing the game.

People love getting up on their high horse when people get aggressive, it is the nature that people like Schatt who prey on underdogs by building sympathy and PR for them when they're faced under tyranny of the ruling power. Yet these are the same people who tried to engineer a war in which people rolled GOONS, by roping them into a situation where they would escalate a war or be declared on.

The word 'hypocrisy' is getting thrown around a lot lately, in regards to the VE/DH reasons for war. That goes right out the window, when you realize that aggressive, defensive, however, we appreciate what war does for the game and look forward to it, whereas the true hypocrisy is when people like Schatt decide that certain alliances are evil for 'manufacturing wars' or for using 'faux CBs' and certain alliances are not. This game would be a lot more fun if people just jumped down off of the pedestal and stopped trying to label people hypocrites for the same things that they themselves do.

There are two aspects of this game for me. Warring, and preparing to war. Everything I do is in regards for the next war. There is no other reason to play this game other than to prepare yourself for when the next war comes, be that politically, economically, or militarily. And that is why the game is always fun for me. If people started appreciating the warring aspect of the game more, people would have a lot more fun. Appreciate those who start wars, because without them, you would have an incredibly boring game. Stop blaming the people making things complicated and fun for ruining the game, when if anything, they're saving it.

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There are two angles to this.

OOC, CN would be a really dull game if there was never war. But on the other hand, it would be a really dumb game if there was always war, too. (There are other games that are mechanically similar like that and they are boring as crap.) So we need to always maintain a balance of politics within the game to keep it interesting. If the 'lulz' or 'srs bsns' alliances control the whole game, it stops being fun.

That means that you need moralists and amoral warmongers to generate some conflict. I choose to play the former.

Also, Schatt makes a good point in that moralism doesn't equate with pacifism. I play CN with a moral basis but I'm perfectly happy to be aggressive now and then – for example BLEU war, this war and arguably Karma (joining the 'defensive coalition' but in a non obligatory fashion). I oppose war without good reason from both IC ('immoral') and OOC (taking the game down the road of constant war and no politics) perspectives, though.

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Before I proceed, I want to thank all of you who commented on this, mostly in a well thought out manner too! That makes writing such a text worth it.

Now, I will try to answer you all, but please forgive me if I forget you or don't answer directly as I will try to focus on the main counterpoints offered by people.

Here goes.

[...]

without such an expansion of the gameplay itself, all of the 'politics' is just posturing. i still continue to play because i enjoy the company of my alliance mates - the game is currently just the water cooler to hang out around.

And you're not alone in that. ;)

Wow - so much to comment on. It's all well written, but you start from some basic assumptions that not everyone would agree with in the least.

Thank you for the compliment White Chocolate, but understand that provocation is necessary to spark debate. ;)

[...point 1...]

That's all true, we're limited in the way we can fight wars and rule our nations. For those who don't want to be involved in politics and war there are neutral alliances though, and I'm perfectly fine with that. It just means the rest of the story doesn't apply to you, since this was meant for those who do participate in politics on Bob. ;)

...point 2...

What is justice to you is injustice to someone else. I can understand that people hold other values then mine in high regard, and I certainly don't think I can say one is better then the other (or "good" or "evil"), but what I'm trying to say is that I don't believe that there is anything else besides the quest for power, even for the "moralists" among us, ingame. To quote myself from another topic on this issue:

"Morality comes into play when one feels there's a need to appeal to the emotions of others. Moralists basically use the weakness of others to further their own political goals. They themselves think their cause is 'just', or even 'holy', but what moralists forget is that they, much like those who they are criticizing, are simply trying to make the rest of the world submit to their norms. Their method to gain power is thus simply more of a deceitful one."

...point 3...

Alright, a couple of points to consider.

The reason why war is inevitable for those who participate in politics (please keep this one condition in mind, because that's an important one that I included in the original text) is that politics is about wielding and increasing one's power. The probability that you'll go to war will only increase the longer you don't, as eventually your interests will clash with those of others.

Only neutrals have no interests in the political game, and thus run the least of risk (yes, there still is a risk!) being dragged into a war.

Furthermore, you have to disconnect justice from action. The point of this blog was to attack the idea that aggression equals injustice and is "bad", while defending equals justice and is "good". So I made the point that aggression is not per se war: it can be lots of things besides that. War only doesn't determine whether one is an aggressor or defender. This all means that there's also the possibility of justifiable aggression, and injustifiable defense.

As to your example, since you declared war, they have everything to do with you. You simply skipped the diplomacy part, or more accurate, switched position of the two events in the timeline. But even before that, it holds true. It is simple, as an alliance you have to consider everyone not allied or befriended to you as hostile. The party you attacked in this case has failed to recognize a future threat to their alliance and act accordingly, so that means they have failed in their diplomacy and wielding their power. The statement stands.

[...point 4...]

Yes, there are different standards as to what is a (legit) CB, not one that all can agree on. You just reinforced my point. Because of this fact, it means that there isn't something like "good or evil" that one can objectively labeled as, or a particular action that can objectively been seen as either "aggressive or defensive". We only have perception.

Aggression does make the politics go round, remember the one condition I told you of earlier?

In politics, it is impossible to be all defensive because you have interests you want to look after. This by definition will obstruct others in their abilities and interests, and thus is aggressive to them.

[...]

Arguing is a kind of warfare. You try to master your opponent, and convince him to agree with you.

[...]

For the first point, see my reply to Haf.

Second, I think that isn't a wrong comparison to be quite honest, but even during musical chairs you have to put in some effort to gain what you want. You can't expect to be granted a seat don't you agree?

I wouldn't argue this myself in this specific case (DH-NPO), but I think it's important to note that if you accept that previous history counts, then that's enough to say the attack wasn't "unprovoked".

Third, you are making the same mistake White_chocolate did. Aggression does not equal solely violence, does not equal war. See my reply to her (I assume W_C is female).

I will agree with you however that the bad label it now has is because of the history and tradition on Planet Bob. Personally, I hope that'll change, that we'll get rid of that taboo.

[...]

I hear you.

Unfortunately I have only experienced the Karma war of those you mentioned, but it was possibly the best time I have ever had in this game. The whole lead up to it and the climax, it simply had everything I think what makes CN the unique game it can be.

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I get really tired of the morality=pacifist falsehood. Most people regard myself as a moralist and CoJ as a moralist AA. We have 3 optional treaties and we have been in every war that involved any of those three AAs, and in between that we've got in between GOONS and a couple micros without any guarantee of backup, as well as convening a coalition to discuss entry into the GOONS-Ninjas war.

Everyone wants to pigeonhole whole groups of people into their prejudicial stereotypes. Get over it, the world is bigger than "moralist" and "people doing something."

If your only idea of doing something is shooting at things non-stop, then stop playing this geo-political simulator and buy a copy of a first person shooter.

You seem to misunderstand me, I have never said morality equals pacifism, although I admit I feel like it comes close at times.

And honestly, I said right in the beginning that I believe there must be diversity in this world, and to narrow it down to moralist versus people who do things isn't of my doing. Ofcourse moralists are doing something also, see my reply to W_C.

Furthermore, I am perfectly fine with CN, but thank you for your concern.

i am quite amused at the sudden "war is good" attitude that is prevalent from the same people who while NPO was top dog was all about "war is ebil".

Why don't you prove to me how I ever objected to war, or thought of it as "ebil"?

Please don't return in this topic before you do, because you're not really contributing to the debate.

There are two aspects of this game for me. Warring, and preparing to war. Everything I do is in regards for the next war. There is no other reason to play this game other than to prepare yourself for when the next war comes, be that politically, economically, or militarily. And that is why the game is always fun for me. If people started appreciating the warring aspect of the game more, people would have a lot more fun. Appreciate those who start wars, because without them, you would have an incredibly boring game. Stop blaming the people making things complicated and fun for ruining the game, when if anything, they're saving it.

I disagree with the latter part, but I find the rest of this quote to be true and worthy of reposting.

If the 'lulz' or 'srs bsns' alliances control the whole game, it stops being fun.

Agreed!

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To those that claim that the war system is simple and boring:

It's a lot less boring and more interesting than CN in peace time. While it's easy to be decent at war or economics there actually is a decent amount of skill required to be very good at it.

Frequent wars are a lot less boring in game than buying infra, tech, and wonders in perpetuity. Politics is a lot less boring when we're not mostly just sitting here and staring at each other.

Oh I'm not claiming that nationbuilding is fun in CN either.

The fun part here is the politics, and for that, you really don't need the game so much as just a keyboard.

And you don't need wars to make politics fun. Wars are a means to avoid having to persuade people of your point of view, or in other words to avoid arguments.

However arguing is fun :)

Being a successful aggressor is nearly impossible in this game. Everyone loves activating defense treaties to join in on a winning war (see: C&G side in BiPolar), but very few people like joining in on aggression into a potential losing aggressive side (see: CoC in Karma, TOP side in BiPolar).

Huh?

Most wars in this game are won by the aggressor. Bipolar and Karma are the only two exceptions I can think of. There's a pretty huge list on the other side, including the Unjust War and the War of the Coalition, where in both cases your alliance was on the winning aggressive side.

Arguing is a kind of warfare. You try to master your opponent, and convince him to agree with you.

Arguably (ha!) this is correct. However it is clearly not the same as CN warfare. This can be shown by how it is fun and CN warfare is dull.

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Oh I'm not claiming that nationbuilding is fun in CN either.

The fun part here is the politics, and for that, you really don't need the game so much as just a keyboard.

And you don't need wars to make politics fun. Wars are a means to avoid having to persuade people of your point of view, or in other words to avoid arguments.

However arguing is fun :)

I'd agree that the politics and such is the most fun but war and the game are what give it meaning. The politics of the game wouldn't work if it conflict was just role-play. For one you have to agree on the terms of the role-play, which is difficult if you are truly adversarial. The game allows us to be adversarial with each other, for it to have consequences, and for those consequences to be connected to specific stats and nations that are regulated by rules created by someone else.

However without war, relative stats mean little. Alliances and treaties mean little.

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Why do you insist on making this about how things were in the past? I'm sick and tired of nearly every debate on this subject getting pigeon holed into one about Karma.

you do realize that Karma was only in 2008 and not 2006 or 2007 where we heard everyone whining about the amount of wars conducted by WUT and then by Q including many who are now all about warring...

if you don't want this to be about the past, then you should ensure that a complete reversal of attitude does not occur once ya'll are in power. When it was ya'll on the receiving end of curbstomps, it was all "zomg war is bad!!! NPO is ebil for attacking aggressively!!! blah blah blah blah blah!!!!" and now that ya'll are in power it is "We are aggressively attacking to ensure security of our alliance (a favorite for NPO)" and "War is good" and so on and so forth.

if you think you can completely switch your attitude after demonizing NPO, Polaris, and many other alliances for doing the same thing you want to do now, and not receive criticism- then you are stupid. and i doubt you are stupid Azaghul. so face it, it will happen.

Being a successful aggressor is nearly impossible in this game. Everyone loves activating defense treaties to join in on a winning war (see: C&G side in BiPolar), but very few people like joining in on aggression into a potential losing aggressive side (see: CoC in Karma, TOP side in BiPolar).

This stems entirely from what Tromp addresses. The same people who are warmongers in peacetime become pacifists in war. Just look at RV, who was going around saying how awful PB/SF/C&G/etc were, because they weren't doing anything, and how that was what was killing the game. Well, here we are, doing something, and now he is saying how awful PB/SF/C&G/etc are, because by doing this aggressive action we are what is killing the game.

People love getting up on their high horse when people get aggressive, it is the nature that people like Schatt who prey on underdogs by building sympathy and PR for them when they're faced under tyranny of the ruling power. Yet these are the same people who tried to engineer a war in which people rolled GOONS, by roping them into a situation where they would escalate a war or be declared on.

The word 'hypocrisy' is getting thrown around a lot lately, in regards to the VE/DH reasons for war. That goes right out the window, when you realize that aggressive, defensive, however, we appreciate what war does for the game and look forward to it, whereas the true hypocrisy is when people like Schatt decide that certain alliances are evil for 'manufacturing wars' or for using 'faux CBs' and certain alliances are not. This game would be a lot more fun if people just jumped down off of the pedestal and stopped trying to label people hypocrites for the same things that they themselves do.

There are two aspects of this game for me. Warring, and preparing to war. Everything I do is in regards for the next war. There is no other reason to play this game other than to prepare yourself for when the next war comes, be that politically, economically, or militarily. And that is why the game is always fun for me. If people started appreciating the warring aspect of the game more, people would have a lot more fun. Appreciate those who start wars, because without them, you would have an incredibly boring game. Stop blaming the people making things complicated and fun for ruining the game, when if anything, they're saving it.

i would actually have to say that this stems more from the fact that alliances like VE cried over any CB they did not feel was perfect (See what they did to Polaris because of the FIST-Polar war and yes i know FIST was allied to VE so it partially makes sense but fact is, according to new VE standards, SCM was totally attempting to spy which is legit CB for VE) or MK who cried over TOP/Co aggressively attacking them or NPO/co and the NoCB war.

so again, had ya'll acted better back then and not demonized those who committed similar or the same actions as you are now, then you would not be demonized now. that is the problem that i see.

Why don't you prove to me how I ever objected to war, or thought of it as "ebil"?

Please don't return in this topic before you do, because you're not really contributing to the debate.

i was not directing that solely towards you Tromp but mostly towards the attitude altogether that as i stated is prevalent among your side. i was part of WUT and called "ebil" for contributing to aggressive wars or condoning them since i never left Polaris nor did Polaris leave WUT until a while later. I watched (and contributed) to Q being demonized for their wars, though even then i did try to stay consistent (i condemned the Viricide war as well as the TPF-NoV war, and the GPA war).

and your post is just another "war is good" post and is solely a propaganda attempt to justify the actions of your alliance and your allies. you personally may not have objected to war, but this post is not about you specifically. while it is your thoughts and you do use I, you are addressing a larger crowd and justifying the actions of a larger crowd. thus, in order to address your points one must address the larger crowd on your side. while i did not address it as others have, my point stands. While you may not be guilty of hypocrisy, those who would agree with you or the alliances whose actions you are justifying could very well be and thus, my point on this new attitude from those currently in power. it is a complete reversal for most of their previous attitude when they were not in power.

in fact, i doubt any of them would state that NPO warring GPA was ever a good thing, nor would VE state that the Viricide was a completely justifiable war or that NoCB was legit because there is no need for a CB anymore. if they did, then they would be hypocrites since most stated the complete opposite back then.

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