The Discussion Bus

[Hereno]

I'd say, no to RL basing, as it's overly complicated and also would definitely need a map reset.
 
If a decent customisation point system can be found, I'd be fine with that.

I probably agree with you on both points here.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I think all land transfers should require a 7 post count with minimum 2 week rollout. This is to force the proper rp of the task of managing the new land.

Two exceptions:

A. Wars.. which will likely already have their own massive post counts and the wars themselves are the land transfers.

B. Declarations of existence.. to faciliate new players settling in on their claims.

[Mogar]

I only support the second exception, if you want to fight and destroy the land, you should have to RP rebuilding it.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Mogar

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I hadn't honestly thought of it that way Mogar.. you've changed my mind on my own point!

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Honestly, the rule is in place as a rule to have people undergo some effort to acquire white land, which they otherwise would acquire pretty much effortlessly with a one-liner, if they so wanted. Why it affects land transfers between two players is beyond me. If there is an agreement of ceding land, for whatever reason, sure, there are troubles with the administration, but it still should be the land of the person that acquired it. You can say, well, you got to rebuild it, but the same could be said about people getting nuked or bombed. Will Euphaia now get to make 7 posts about rebuilding Budapest?

 

And what do you want to mark it on the map as? It quite clearly was ceded, so it is not part of the original nation anymore. It seemingly also does not belong to the one who received it. So, is it white space for two weeks and 7 posts? Apart from it not really being what white space is about - Free for people to start a nation in. Because this is like a protectorate that only exists to be annexed. It's just utterly pointless.

 

I say, stay with what the rule was made for, to have people put effort into taking white space and gobble up the empty space on the map, but don't punish agreements between RPers. It is not like the land was free in the beginning, it won't be free in the end, what is the point of putting this whole ordeal in the middle?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Can you imagine the level of headache that would ensue if the US tried to give Mexico Texas...... I mean, leaders might agree to it, but to pretend it would be a cake walk is simply nutz.

The point of the ordeal is to rp the change over to explain how it happened, otherwise there is no other explanation than magic, because in reality it sure wouldn't work that way and such a change would take a lot of time to effect.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Same with new nations. Why don't we do it for new nations? Because it's pointless hassle and we don't want to punish new nations. Why would we want to punish two established RPers handing over land? Just as an example with actual relevance: Rudolph holds a few Romanian provinces. These constitute the Romanian Banat. These provinces remain with Rudolph for now. Would they however be handed over, what ordeal would they be to integrate? The population is overwhelmingly Romanian, with connections to the rest of Romania, economic connections between Rudolph and me are good, apart from some administrative transitioning, there's little of an ordeal. Just as a counter-example of the US handing over Texas to Mexico. Which btw opens up, what ordeal it would be to subjugate all of a country to a whimsical monarch or all the other strange regimes that exist. But we don't punish that, because people should have some freedom to RP, why can't they have freedom to exchange territory?

 

Rules are there to fix problems. Not to complicate needlessly what otherwise could be a straightforward and unproplematic matter. What does a 7 post for land transfer rule fix, when land is transferred between two players?

[Mogar]

If you want the land, earn it, it's the simple intent of the rule in the first place, I know that if I ever had to sign over land to another nation in surrender terms, the people living there would require some quelling by the occupying force, especially if they had just bombed the area, there is a slight difference between a peaceful transition than a war transition.

[Markus Wilding]

Even if we assume our example in our little spat was a normal transfer, there's no way those citizens, especially those who were affected by nuclear weapons, are just going to accept new Prussian and Hungarian leadership in their lands. This is going to happen anywhere - even with peaceful land trades. People aren't going to like their new leaders, the new laws, the new citizenship requirements, and the fact that they're separated from friends and family across the now moved border. I know we have a popular mantra of don't force people to rp what they don't have to, but this is exactly the kind of stuff that can be easily abused just like one-post annexing.

 

Now, to make it clear, I'm not saying every single person has to immediately love their new rulers, but not everyone has to hate them either. There's always a balance in life of those who love and hate the new guys. One of those sides is just louder than the other.

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

That is clear, and I was planning to RP dealing with the population. Or is this just a way of forcing me to RP them and not ignore the issue? If so, then this is a dumb way of doing it.

[Mogar]

Personally I don't think you should even be continued to post further until you actually RP out taking damage from being nuked, if you really want to discuss rule changes, how about mandatory numbers of posts for nuclear recovery efforts as well?

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

I did make those posts, if you'll have a look.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Horo the Wise Wolf

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Even if we assume our example in our little spat was a normal transfer, there's no way those citizens, especially those who were affected by nuclear weapons, are just going to accept new Prussian and Hungarian leadership in their lands. This is going to happen anywhere - even with peaceful land trades. People aren't going to like their new leaders, the new laws, the new citizenship requirements, and the fact that they're separated from friends and family across the now moved border. I know we have a popular mantra of don't force people to rp what they don't have to, but this is exactly the kind of stuff that can be easily abused just like one-post annexing.

 

Now, to make it clear, I'm not saying every single person has to immediately love their new rulers, but not everyone has to hate them either. There's always a balance in life of those who love and hate the new guys. One of those sides is just louder than the other.

People can immediatly like being ruled by dragons and autocrats, if such a nation sets up shop. If you don't want potential 100% approval ratings, then you have to fix that first. Otherwise, after 7 posts, these people will hate their former country and love their new one, if the RPer in question only so wants. You are pretty much delaying the whole matter, not preventing it.

 

But does it need to be delayed? Because as pointed out before, it is not like ICly, this land is contestable. If you contest it, you are pretty much a rebellion, where hardly anyone will give you territory they just acquired with diplomatic dealings or a war. This is not land that reasonably is open to new players. Unless there's a greater solution for people to deal with reasonable domestic dissent, I see no reason to introduce mandatory dissent here, which only is for 7 posts anyway and does nothing but blockade land transfers of occupied land to occupied land.

 

Personally I don't think you should even be continued to post further until you actually RP out taking damage from being nuked, if you really want to discuss rule changes, how about mandatory numbers of posts for nuclear recovery efforts as well?

Well, he ate four nukes, neither of them actually targetting a greater city. It was RPed out, just that casualties keep within limits when you nuke the countryside. And you are one to talk about reasonable nuclear recovery, Mister "I need to hit Tywin, so I'm all fine again, despite getting double digit percentages of my population nuked away".

[Lynneth]

I'm not going to argue about realism this or realism that.

 

The 7 posts/7 days for expansion are a tool. A mechanic exactly like IG planes being translated into squadrons of 12 planes each. A mechanic like the tech scale. It's a feature. And in my opinion, it's Working As Intended. Unless land is exchanged with mutual consent - 'gifting', as many call it - then the posts need to be made to integrate the territory in question properly. War is, despite what some may now say, not an exchange of land by mutual consent. Someone had to be invaded after all, and only then agreed to let go of land. That is taking by force.

 

This is how it works in my eyes, and it is good. There is no need to change anything about this.

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

Maybe the rules thread should be updated then. It's nice having the actual rules to hand, after all.

[Mogar]

or you could actually RP.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

or you could actually RP.

Sorry, but this reply has pretty much no bearing to the issue that the rules are not formulated clearly. Because I can RP all I want, the rules won't become any clearer. This is why this discussion on the matter was started.

[Hereno]

Sorry, but this reply has pretty much no bearing to the issue that the rules are not formulated clearly. Because I can RP all I want, the rules won't become any clearer. This is why this discussion on the matter was started.

What Mogar is trying to say is that Horo shouldn't be RPing getting new land when he hasn't even RPed out the full damages of the conflict on Prussia, yet. Actually, he asserted that his "capitol" was a shack in the middle of the woods, and that the nuking of the residence of his leaders left no damages or casualties. I get that he's 3edgy5us and isn't going to take anything seriously, but if that's the case, he doesn't need more land anyway. I don't think his nation as he's RPed it actually even has the infrastructure to support an army or take on new territories. The rules don't even come into it - we wouldn't let Dillon annex California by sending 1,000 soldiers into it, so why should we let Horo annex part of Germany when he doesn't even have a real nation?

[Evangeline Anovilis]

I am sure you are one to talk about not taking things serious and RPing things out in ridiculous ways, after you fired 26 nukes at countries you were at war with and which you were not at war with, made a lulzy post about declaring yourself most awesome nation and shooting your leaders into space. Yeah, no.

 

Horo has the right to be taken serious as a nation just like others. And whether his nation can sustain 850k troops or not is completely irrelevant, given how rules are. If you want realism, change the rules, but you are now arguing a different topic that has little to nothing to do with land transfers. Not to mention thát Dillon's move into California was made at the beginning of this RP, when it was pretty much TBM and Mogar who as GMs made decisions and no such rule as this one here was in place.

[Hereno]

I am sure you are one to talk about not taking things serious and RPing things out in ridiculous ways, after you fired 26 nukes at countries you were at war with and which you were not at war with, made a lulzy post about declaring yourself most awesome nation and shooting your leaders into space. Yeah, no.
 
Horo has the right to be taken serious as a nation just like others. And whether his nation can sustain 850k troops or not is completely irrelevant, given how rules are. If you want realism, change the rules, but you are now arguing a different topic that has little to nothing to do with land transfers. Not to mention thát Dillon's move into California was made at the beginning of this RP, when it was pretty much TBM and Mogar who as GMs made decisions and no such rule as this one here was in place.

You're so predictable. I was told to demilitarize completely or be removed from the continent, so I picked removal. My nation is gone and I rerolled. Horo decided that his nation is run in a tiny shack in the middle of the woods that has since been vaporized, and apparently his King is homeless. Based on his own bare-bones notRP in response to my nukes that was no doubt intended to brush them off as nothing. Rather than call him out on his bad faith yet again, all I'm asking is how it is that his RP allows him to canonically annex lands given the dire situation that he's put his nation in? I think he's got the cart way before the horse and has a lot of RPing to do before he can say that those lands are really under his control. My suggestion would be to RP the complete collapse of the Hohenzollern dynasty and reroll as a Prussia that has the war gains already annexed. That would provide him with the least amount of actual RPing and save him having to clean up any damages. Edited August 8, 2014 by Hereno

[Evangeline Anovilis]

You know if my capitol was not in the middle of Bucharest, you'd kill pretty much the janitor and a few guards. Because my nation needs no capitol. It's run by the royal administration, directly under the command of the Queen. If you wonder how this possibly works out, it worked out in monarchies for centuries. France has a longer history being administered this way, than via democratically elected governance.

 

Anyway, you are mostly just frustrated that your horribly RPed nuking earned a horribly RPed response. Put in more effort next time and we might too. And you know, I know what it is like to get occupied by Cent and have my military curtailed. While a territorial defence force is more than no military at all, if it's restricted to a complete joke of a military, then it the practical difference is nil. Yet, I actually stayed and RPed. You preferred to shoot yourself into space, instead of living with the consequences of your actions.

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

Being high profile targets, the Hohenzollerns left their residence when Operation Blitzkrieg finished. It even says that in my post.

I had no idea why you were nuking my capitol, but that's not for me to decide.

If you had bothered to read my posts, you would see that there were casualties. As much as I wish I could, I can't RP full recovery efforts yet, because I hear that these things take time. Can't clean up a radioactive mess in a single day, personally.

[Hereno]

You know if my capitol was not in the middle of Bucharest, you'd kill pretty much the janitor and a few guards. Because my nation needs no capitol. It's run by the royal administration, directly under the command of the Queen. If you wonder how this possibly works out, it worked out in monarchies for centuries. France has a longer history being administered this way, than via democratically elected governance.
 
Anyway, you are mostly just frustrated that your horribly RPed nuking earned a horribly RPed response. Put in more effort next time and we might too. And you know, I know what it is like to get occupied by Cent and have my military curtailed. While a territorial defence force is more than no military at all, if it's restricted to a complete joke of a military, then it the practical difference is nil. Yet, I actually stayed and RPed. You preferred to shoot yourself into space, instead of living with the consequences of your actions.

 

Being high profile targets, the Hohenzollerns left their residence when Operation Blitzkrieg finished. It even says that in my post.

I had no idea why you were nuking my capitol, but that's not for me to decide.

If you had bothered to read my posts, you would see that there were casualties. As much as I wish I could, I can't RP full recovery efforts yet, because I hear that these things take time. Can't clean up a radioactive mess in a single day, personally.

I am not talking about a building, I am talking about a city.
 

Historically, the major economic centre of a state or region often becomes the focal point of political power, and becomes a capital through conquest or federation. Examples are Ancient Babylon, Abbasid Baghdad, Berlin, Constantinople, Ancient Cusco, London, Ancient Athens, Madrid, Moscow, Ancient Rome, Beijing, Stockholm, Tokyo, and Vienna. The capital city naturally attracts politically motivated people and those whose skills are needed for efficient administration of national or imperial governments, such as lawyers, political scientists, bankers, journalists, and public policy makers. Some of these cities are or were also religious centres, e.g. Constantinople (more than one religion), Rome (the Roman Catholic Church), Jerusalem (Judaism), Ancient Babylon, Moscow (the Russian Orthodox Church), Belgrade (the Serbian Orthodox Church), Paris, and Peking.

Most people's leaders would be in that same city, but I also included their specific residences to make sure that you couldn't say "he went to his house in upstate New York" and b/s your way out of it. It was aimed at making it impossible for your governments to function. Neither you nor Euphaia RPed the real consequences of having someone's entire government completely removed, but Euphaia at least was willing to say a lot of buildings were damaged and that some of his soldiers died. You decided that you had no city, just a single building sitting in the middle of nowhere. Even if we are referring to the buildings, the idea that one monarch runs everything by themselves is ridiculous. Governments have always had administrative bodies, persons with political power, and levels of government below that of the Monarch.

My attacks should have caused chaos among your ground forces, temporarily disabling your governmental functions (and communications), as well as frightening and decimating your confused armies. Instead, you decided to pretend as though nobody on the ground was even phased by nuclear detonations with millions of casualties out of nowhere. Me nuking Zoot was literally saying "what's even the point of having nukes if they're so useless?" The reactions of Carthage and Sparta make perfect sense, but only in the context of nuclear explosions that actually have effects. The reason your nations wouldn't be expecting such a reaction from me is because it is completely over-the-top and rightly considered the acts of a rogue regime.

And why did I act like a rogue regime? Because you completely detached yourselves from reality in your scheming for that war. Your CB was nonsensical and contrived, and all of the other wars I had had to fight were equally as bad. It was a protest against poor actions by pointing out what could be achieved using the same logic. Rather than seeing the point or bothering to examine your actions, you acted even more ridiculously. When I saw there was no hope, and that I was going to lose all of my army and Rome in more ridiculous OOC-based terms for Milan, I took my characters into space and left Europe entirely. You all made it very clear that a person interested in doing serious RP was not welcome to the continent. Edited August 9, 2014 by Hereno

[Evangeline Anovilis]

First off, you targetted the "capitol"... And Horo would take it as "capitol". People should double-check what they nuke. Just like last time, when Zoot nuked Jesbro, because he forgot that one existed or something.

 

If you want to tell me our scheming is unrealistic, I might have to tell you, sadly, real wars started with less legitimation. Best example to me would be the 1911 Italian attack on Tripolitania/Libya, which was an Ottoman province back then. Estimating the Ottomans to be weak and to not be able to defend adequately, Italy pretty much just waged a war of aggression. Germany and Austria-Hungary were not amused, but officially allied. The Triple Entente mostly left the Ottomans to their fate, because France had an agreement with Italy regarding Italy backing French Morocco, in return France would not do anything about Libya. And Russia was happy with the Italian attack, due to what followed: The First Balkan War. Also, it was pretty obvious, with this adventure, the Italians would be more estranged from the rest of the Dreibund.

 

The First Balkan War (1912-1913) was no less of an opportunistic landgrab, where Montenegro (who eventually started the war), Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania and Greece fought the Ottomans, for no other reason but to get them out of Europe, knowing the Ottomans were busy losing against Italy and noone would step up for them.

 

You tell me our war is unrealistic. No, it is not. It is basically what happens when you have a coalition of people who want Markus out of Poland and added Mecklenburg-Vorpommern as cherry ontop. I'm not going to say the whole war was the epidome of fairness and justice. But it has IC legitimation. Your nukings were on the other side hardly anywhere realistic, nor the posts accompanying it. You thankfully won't be able to give us a historic anecdote showing where this has ever been used and if one knows actual nuclear strategy, it's just utterly senseless what you did.

 

Thus, you got classed a nuclear rogue, Markus was left out to dry, due to international stigma and the rapid escalation of the coalition. A person doing serious RP is fine on this continent, but as one might realise on the map, there's only so much land for this many people. At some point there are borders. And either one lives within ones borders and is fine with keeping to oneself (look at Zapadnaya or Yugoslavia for example), or one looks beyond and may actually drawn into border conflicts. Because when two people want the same white land, I'd not say one of them is more entitled, regardless of what you think.

 

If people for just a little bit would stop looking at me, stating that all my actions are unreasonable and OOC based, just because they hit them and did actual damage, and if you'd actually try understand the underlying logic of foreign relations, you'd maybe understand what I am doing and that it is not just "Oh, Horo wants some land, let's kill Markus" or "Let's suck up to Triyun, because then I'll get another pat on the head". Such simplistic theories fail utterly to explain for example why Euphaia and Mr Director were involved in the war, arguable contributing more forces than me even, but who were both not in there due to Horo or Triyun. They also weren't involved because I'm such a charming person that can draw in people to help me. They were there, because it was profitable and promising. But simplistic theories will tell yourself that you were right and I'm a morally wretched person, so, I'm sure they will not go away anytime soon.

 

Now, continue to discuss when should it be necessary to make 7 posts, when not. If you want to pursue the other topic further, feel free to. I think I made my case, the defense rests. I'm not going to detail this further.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Evangeline Anovilis

[Hereno]

But simplistic theories will tell yourself that you were right and I'm a morally wretched person, so, I'm sure they will not go away anytime soon.

That's unfair. Having a willingness to pose questions and speak freely doesn't mean I'm judging or trying to insult you or anyone else I disagree with.

I would continue with a rebuttal but you've moved past the discussion, so that's that. I'm over it, it's the past.