A Dilettante into Politics

[Hereno]

The ultimate judge of the validity of a CB is whether or not the community stands to have it used. Not posts on the OWF, not 'moral outrage', but soldiers, tech, and infra on the line backing up that viewpoint. Nobody seems ready and willing to send their lot in to defend NPO. Why? Various reasons. Maybe they're still sore at NPO for pre-karma actions, maybe they value their allies closer to the current power structure more, or maybe they're just too scared of being on the losing end of a war. Sure, NPO didn't send DH target lists saying "roll us please k thanks", but through various actions they've taken (and not taken), they've made it so enough people are happy to sit idle and watch them burn.

You all keep saying that "they tried to be nice and were shot down", but why is that? It's because of their previous actions, more recent actions, and their current political situation (which was caused by their previous and more recent actions...) I agree that not all of the blame rests on NPO, and that it would've been decent of the world to "give NPO a chance" after Karma. However, NPO is at least partially, indirectly responsible for their current situation, and continuing to deny responsibility is much of what made "Karma 2" necessary for some people in the first place.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298731725' post='2645425']
The ultimate judge of the validity of a CB is whether or not the community stands to have it used. Not posts on the OWF, not 'moral outrage', but soldiers, tech, and infra on the line backing up that viewpoint. Nobody seems ready and willing to send their lot in to defend NPO. Why? Various reasons. Maybe they're still sore at NPO for pre-karma actions, maybe they value their allies closer to the current power structure more, or maybe they're just too scared of being on the losing end of a war. Sure, NPO didn't send DH target lists saying "roll us please k thanks", but through various actions they've taken (and not taken), they've made it so enough people are happy to sit idle and watch them burn.

You all keep saying that "they tried to be nice and were shot down", but why is that? It's because of their previous actions, more recent actions, and their current political situation (which was caused by their previous and more recent actions...) I agree that not all of the blame rests on NPO, and that it would've been decent of the world to "give NPO a chance" after Karma. However, NPO is at least partially, indirectly responsible for their current situation, and continuing to deny responsibility is much of what made "Karma 2" necessary for some people in the first place.
[/quote]


Or maybe they're greedy. Maybe they're jealous. They could be afraid to be on the potential losing end of the war as all wars have risk. This world is full of evil and vile.. some of us will stand up against it.. some of us will sit by and let it happen.. some of us will be the ones being evil and vile starting wars for no reason against an alliance that had done nothing to provoke any others. Are we partly responsible? I do not want to dwell on shoulda, woulda, couldas, but I do feel there were a few opportunities missed, but none to such a measure as would have sole responsibility in this conflict as to the outright greed and jealousy of former foes who didn't want to see us in top form.. again. This is not Karma 2.. because Karma is people getting the things they deserve based on their actions and inputs into the system.. if anything, it's doom houses turn for that. This is more like, "War of Peaceful Growth Envy."

Our foes realized they could not outperform us in peace.. and so engaged us in war. Where last I checked, they're still dieing harder than we are.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Earogema]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298731725' post='2645425']
The ultimate judge of the validity of a CB is whether or not the community stands to have it used. Not posts on the OWF, not 'moral outrage', but soldiers, tech, and infra on the line backing up that viewpoint. Nobody seems ready and willing to send their lot in to defend NPO. Why? Various reasons. Maybe they're still sore at NPO for pre-karma actions, maybe they value their allies closer to the current power structure more, or maybe they're just too scared of being on the losing end of a war. Sure, NPO didn't send DH target lists saying "roll us please k thanks", but through various actions they've taken (and not taken), they've made it so enough people are happy to sit idle and watch them burn.

You all keep saying that "they tried to be nice and were shot down", but why is that? It's because of their previous actions, more recent actions, and their current political situation (which was caused by their previous and more recent actions...) I agree that not all of the blame rests on NPO, and that it would've been decent of the world to "give NPO a chance" after Karma. However, NPO is at least partially, indirectly responsible for their current situation, and continuing to deny responsibility is much of what made "Karma 2" necessary for some people in the first place.
[/quote]
I am absolutely sick of this rhetoric.

Look, you claim that the NPO took actions to cause this to happen (as well as inaction), but besides the removal of MK diplomats what action had NPO taken to cause this? What was the inaction? Not mending relations. Good yes, we get that, that is completely understood. It's just a stupid point.

In the post-Karma world, unless you were explicitly stating "we are going to roll you (which is basically what MK's prince was doing to NPO, and MK's King to BAPS)" and/or perform an action that would threaten an alliance, you should have usually left to your own devices. As it is, the NPO is literally only being rolled because they did not sufficiently use diplomatic procedures to mend relations. This line of logic is incredibly stupid and honestly I'm pretty sure most of you are aware that it's incredibly stupid. You can't assault a guy just because he calls you an idiot and expect to go "but he insulted me!"

Under this rhetoric, we essentially return to the time of Q where you were allied to a powerbloc or you died. I'm not saying that Doomhouse is "JUST AS BAD AS THEM (TM)" but honestly, no alliance should stand to be rolled because it didn't "mend relations." The assumption should always be that the alliance in question is not to be rolled until it commits an action that proves for a CB.

Then there was the whole post NoCB mentality of "Treaty only your friends" and that's precisely what NPO did. They hold 6 treaties that MDP level, with 3 ties to blocs (those blocs being Terra Cotta and then ODP with TIO leading to Synergy and Sirius not exactly some upper level stuff). Compare this to MK having 6 MDP treaties (one of which is a bloc with 2 alliances that is at least MDP level). Then one should realize that all but the ODP for NPO were signed (and maintained) since they have came out of peace terms. Literally every single one of NPO's treaties but 1 are all from NPO being released from peace terms. That should probably tell you something about who they viewed as friends/how much political capital they had. MK on the other hand literally had the political capital to cancel all of their treaties and then sign the same number as NPO in a lesser time. They are also connected to 3 blocs except those blocs are C&G, Doomhouse, and PB. While I'm not suggesting that all of those people are not actually friends of MK, it certainly reeks of the same diplomatic maneuvering of WUT and Q under NPO (that is to treaty strong and capable alliances by having massive political capital via your dominant position).

But instead however, I find it absolutely hilarious that various alliances involved think that NPO needed to use diplomacy to chum up to them while at the same time pretty much lying to their face. You cannot argue that NPO needed to feel more guilty for their previous actions AND argue they needed to use diplomacy to mend relations unless they honestly meant both, and of course, even if they did, most know not to trust NPO diplomats now because of the very same realpolitik they used to move the world before. NPO didn't want to apologize for their previous actions, especially since those actions had no more bearing on the world now. So basically, if NPO had utilized diplomacy, they would have been lying through their teeth, but somehow this is better than them being completely frank about how they view certain alliances? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

NPO was being completely honest about what and who they were. It's a goddamn shame that people still believe that all of the NPO's allies are only there for the sake of being meatshields when they aren't even that large/significant and when they honestly helped them through Karma (none of those alliances being part of the "Coalition of Cowards" that canceled on them).

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298746650' post='2645505']

Our foes realized they could not outperform us in peace.. and so engaged us in war. Where last I checked, they're still dieing harder than we are.
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]I laughed really at this. NPO was not "outperforming" anyone before the war. Hell, you guys were harldy "performing". Your aid slot usage rate was horrible. Your alliance is just a bigger version of GOONS without a sense of humor.[/color]

[Hereno]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298746650' post='2645505']
Or maybe they're greedy. Maybe they're jealous. They could be afraid to be on the potential losing end of the war as all wars have risk. This world is full of evil and vile.. some of us will stand up against it.. some of us will sit by and let it happen.. some of us will be the ones being evil and vile starting wars for no reason against an alliance that had done nothing to provoke any others. Are we partly responsible? I do not want to dwell on shoulda, woulda, couldas, but I do feel there were a few opportunities missed, but none to such a measure as would have sole responsibility in this conflict as to the outright greed and jealousy of former foes who didn't want to see us in top form.. again. This is not Karma 2.. because Karma is people getting the things they deserve based on their actions and inputs into the system.. if anything, it's doom houses turn for that. This is more like, "War of Peaceful Growth Envy."

Our foes realized they could not outperform us in peace.. and so engaged us in war. Where last I checked, they're still dieing harder than we are.
[/quote]

See, in making this post you've already kinda proved my point. "Are we responsible? Well, I don't want to dwell in the past..." No, sorry, it doesn't work that way. Sure, you guys haven't been up to a great deal lately, but in your past you ticked a lot of people off. Getting beaten up once for being a jerk doesn't mean that all the people you were a jerk to in the past are suddenly your friends.

I never said NPO holds 100% of the blame for their current predicament, but you all refuse to accept any blame, which is either incredibly naive or incredibly arrogant. If you want to refuse allying with anyone who has the power to keep you from being rolled, and basically pit yourself against the entire power structure, that's your own business. But, don't come crying to me when those who have power don't like sitting back and watching their only real opposition and former tyrants grow unchecked to formidable levels.


[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1298749449' post='2645527']
I am absolutely sick of this rhetoric.

Look, you claim that the NPO took actions to cause this to happen (as well as inaction), but besides the removal of MK diplomats what action had NPO taken to cause this? What was the inaction? Not mending relations. Good yes, we get that, that is completely understood. It's just a stupid point.[/quote]

The NPO existed before Karma. I didn't know bad deeds had an expiration date.

[quote]
In the post-Karma world, unless you were explicitly stating "we are going to roll you (which is basically what MK's prince was doing to NPO, and MK's King to BAPS)" and/or perform an action that would threaten an alliance, you should have usually left to your own devices.
[/quote]

This is what I get tired of, people saying "BUT I THOUGHT KARMA WAS GOING TO GIVE EVERY NATION FREE CASH AND TECH AND PEACE AND FLOWERS FOR EVERYONE YESSSSS". No, Karma was returning the favor to NPO for their abuses in the past. Nothing more, nothing less.

[quote]
As it is, the NPO is literally only being rolled because *snipped to save scrolling* The assumption should always be that the alliance in question is not to be rolled until it commits an action that proves for a CB.
[/quote]

This is a huge oversimplification of the argument being presented, and you know it.

Also, a CB is as valid as the muscle behind it. That's how the world has worked, works now, and will always work. It would be nice if it worked more the way you wished, but it doesn't, so let's work with the world we do have.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298759082' post='2645611']
The NPO existed before Karma. I didn't know bad deeds had an expiration date.
[/quote]
Then by all means, TOP should also be burned over and over. Sparta too. VE too. NPO didn't have the political capital to do it on its own.

[quote]
This is what I get tired of, people saying "BUT I THOUGHT KARMA WAS GOING TO GIVE EVERY NATION FREE CASH AND TECH AND PEACE AND FLOWERS FOR EVERYONE YESSSSS". No, Karma was returning the favor to NPO for their abuses in the past. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]
Hardly. One of the complants of Karma was the NPO waged wars that were as you said "bad deeds"
[quote]
This is a huge oversimplification of the argument being presented, and you know it.

Also, a CB is as valid as the muscle behind it. That's how the world has worked, works now, and will always work. It would be nice if it worked more the way you wished, but it doesn't, so let's work with the world we do have.
[/quote]
So the NPO had perfectly just CBs and actions.

You're an idiot.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Earogema.. I'm out of this discussion.. you clearly have this one covered.. excellent work, LOL.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Voytek]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298791567' post='2645981']
Earogema.. I'm out of this discussion.. you clearly have this one covered.. excellent work, LOL.
[/quote]
Nobody likes a cheerleader.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1298799461' post='2646058']
Nobody likes a cheerleader.
[/quote]

Last I heard.. most cheerleaders... at most institutions and on most sports teams.. tend to be quite hot and quite well liked. You really shouldn't dismiss cheerleaders in such a fashion. Do you [b][i][u]REALLY[/u][/i][/b] want me to go get a jumpsuit and pom poms to make you right? Think about that real hard.. cause quite honestly.. I am a handsome man, but not in that kind of outfit.

Scratch that, due to recent inflation as caused by war the cost of a cheer leading outfit now rivals that of nuclear weapons and I am not depleting my war chest for that purpose.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Voytek]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1298799809' post='2646061']
Last I heard.. most cheerleaders... at most institutions and on most sports teams.. tend to be quite hot and quite well liked. You really shouldn't dismiss cheerleaders in such a fashion. Do you [b][i][u]REALLY[/u][/i][/b] want me to go get a jumpsuit and pom poms to make you right? Think about that real hard.. cause quite honestly.. I am a handsome man, but not in that kind of outfit.

Scratch that, due to recent inflation as caused by war the cost of a cheer leading outfit now rivals that of nuclear weapons and I am not depleting my war chest for that purpose.
[/quote]
deliberately taking posts overly literally and running with it is the next big thing in humour i hear it's a really good way of defusing theyre sarcasms :~}

[Maelstrom Vortex]

You had to go ruin it for me by posting something I agree with. Grr...

Edited February 27, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Alterego]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1298749449' post='2645527']
In the post-Karma world, unless you were explicitly stating "we are going to roll you (which is basically what MK's prince was doing to NPO, and MK's King to BAPS)"
[/quote]
In my personal opinion that threat by the leader of that alliance is an act of war. I will continue to see it as an act of war until they officially admit it was a mistake and publicly apologise for making the threat.

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298759082' post='2645611']
This is what I get tired of, people saying "BUT I THOUGHT KARMA WAS GOING TO GIVE EVERY NATION FREE CASH AND TECH AND PEACE AND FLOWERS FOR EVERYONE YESSSSS". No, Karma was returning the favor to NPO for their abuses in the past. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]
Nobody said anything as stupid as that. The reasons for the Karma war have evolved over time depending on the issue of the day. Karma was a very misleading movement that [u]did [/u]promise a new world, a world with no more forced disbandment’s, no more manufactured CBs or no CB wars, an end to EZI & eternal wars and an end to draconian reps. The draconian reps promise was broken before the end of the war, caffeine was banned from holding a government position and IRON was told they would be held in war indefinitely unless they surrendered unconditionally without knowing what terms would follow. In this war the ugly head of forced disbandment is back on the agenda.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1298782343' post='2645846']
Then by all means, TOP should also be burned over and over. Sparta too. VE too. NPO didn't have the political capital to do it on its own.

Hardly. One of the complants of Karma was the NPO waged wars that were as you said "bad deeds"

So the NPO had perfectly just CBs and actions.

You're an idiot.
[/quote]

You mad, bro?

I had a long, drilling response to this typed up, but seeing as how you've resorted to assaulting my character, it appears that I've won without it.

[quote]
Nobody said anything as stupid as that. The reasons for the Karma war have evolved over time depending on the issue of the day. Karma was a very misleading movement that did promise a new world, a world with no more forced disbandment’s, no more manufactured CBs or no CB wars, an end to EZI & eternal wars and an end to draconian reps. The draconian reps promise was broken before the end of the war, caffeine was banned from holding a government position and IRON was told they would be held in war indefinitely unless they surrendered unconditionally without knowing what terms would follow. In this war the ugly head of forced disbandment is back on the agenda.
[/quote]

Karma did, indeed, promise a new world. A world where NPO wasn't in charge. It delivered, and things are much better based on that alone.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Hereno

[Earogema]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298821330' post='2646144']
You mad, bro?

I had a long, drilling response to this typed up, but seeing as how you've resorted to assaulting my character, it appears that I've won without it.



Karma did, indeed, promise a new world. A world where NPO wasn't in charge. It delivered, and things are much better based on that alone.
[/quote]
You've already completely contradicted yourself and pushed yourself into a corner you can't argue from. Also if you think the statement "You're an idiot" is an assault on your character that matters, you should probably grow thicker skin.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1298703712' post='2645298']
This is "Karma Done Right"
[/quote]
No, Karma Done Right will include VE, Umbrella, TOP, Grämlins and the myriad bootlickers that all managed to get to the liferafts on the eve of Karma. But they're too useful, now, aren't they?



[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298759082' post='2645611']
See, in making this post you've already kinda proved my point. "Are we responsible? Well, I don't want to dwell in the past..." No, sorry, it doesn't work that way. Sure, you guys haven't been up to a great deal lately, but in your past you ticked a lot of people off. Getting beaten up once for being a jerk doesn't mean that all the people you were a jerk to in the past are suddenly your friends.

I never said NPO holds 100% of the blame for their current predicament, but you all refuse to accept any blame, which is either incredibly naive or incredibly arrogant. If you want to refuse allying with anyone who has the power to keep you from being rolled, and basically pit yourself against the entire power structure, that's your own business. But, don't come crying to me when those who have power don't like sitting back and watching their only real opposition and former tyrants grow unchecked to formidable levels.

The NPO existed before Karma. I didn't know bad deeds had an expiration date.

This is what I get tired of, people saying "BUT I THOUGHT KARMA WAS GOING TO GIVE EVERY NATION FREE CASH AND TECH AND PEACE AND FLOWERS FOR EVERYONE YESSSSS". No, Karma was returning the favor to NPO for their abuses in the past. Nothing more, nothing less.

This is a huge oversimplification of the argument being presented, and you know it.

Also, a CB is as valid as the muscle behind it. That's how the world has worked, works now, and will always work. It would be nice if it worked more the way you wished, but it doesn't, so let's work with the world we do have.
[/quote]
The difference between a thing like you and men like MegaAros is thought. We put a lot of thought into how the world should be while it was still the way it is now, and then we put our nations behind it, and lives to be honest, for a long time, and we did it for free. And when Karma rode our coattails into existence and claimed our values and vision, we took them at their word. And now they come doing the same things that were always done and they have the audacity to try and dress it up in karmaic terms--well forgive me and a whole lot of other people for not not buying it twice. If their is any simplification it is not oversimplification; the simple fact of the matter is that Karma promised certain things, and they have not simply failed to deliver, they have actively sought to do the opposite. What else should we have expected? These alliances for the most part prospered under the Pax Pacifica, and they decided that that power is more important than their character. Fine. But let's be honest about it and forego all these charades.

I have for a month been trying to say this in a way so as not to insult the NPO, but it really is quite difficult: The NPO holds 0 blame for this war. They were not a threat to anyone. In fact, they were scared !@#$less, too afraid to do anything of any real importance and not getting within a mile of any controversy. As a matter of fact even the response from Red Dawn over MK's Red Safari was posted over Cortath's objections, and the planned response was shut down when NPO pulled out. Like GPA before the curbstomp, NPO's huge NS presence meant nothing. The only threat that NPO presented was to MK's sleep as they laid awake mumbling "can't sleep, NPO will roll me."
The coalitions aligned against Polaris and Pacifia represent nothing more than trembling insecure babies scared to death of shadows on the wall.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Hereno]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1298829850' post='2646202']
You've already completely contradicted yourself and pushed yourself into a corner you can't argue from. Also if you think the statement "You're an idiot" is an assault on your character that matters, you should probably grow thicker skin.
[/quote]

And what contradiction would that be? Things are as just as the people with the power to change them say they are. That is my argument, and you've not made me contradict it once.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1298830597' post='2646208']
The difference between a thing like you and men like MegaAros is thought. *snipped to save scrolling down* The only threat that NPO presented was to MK's sleep as they laid awake mumbling "can't sleep, NPO will roll me."
The coalitions aligned against Polaris and Pacifia represent nothing more than trembling insecure babies scared to death of shadows on the wall.
[/quote]

There is no one difference between a person like me and people like yourselves. First and foremost, you assume that you're the only ones who have put any thought into what you're saying, and refer to dissenters as barely human (if at all). Instead of showing respect, you jump like dogs to attack with vigor at the first sign of blood. You claim to be open to dissenting opinions, yet you're shocked to find they actually exist. You claim to fight for equality and fairness, yet refuse even humanity to anyone who doesn't agree with you. People deserve rights, but only if they're on your side. You run around telling those in power that they've become what they hated, yet are, yourself, exactly what you claim to hate. The point of having a right is that everyone, no matter their friends and enemies, gets that right. If you don't provide them for the people who you hate, who would destroy you if given the chance, then you don't believe in those rights at all. In truth, you, like many "leftists", are a walking contradiction of everything you claim to stand for.

As for NPO, they treated other people in ways that angered them and threatened their survival. That is why Karma became necessary. Just because moralists tried to take over the revolution does not mean Karma failed it's primary objective - to dethrone NPO and it's allies from their position of global dominance. Karma promised nobody anything more, or less. And now, those who NPO held authority over now hold authority over NPO, and are doing their best to ensure that NPO will never be able to gain authority again. In truth, I wouldn't expect anything different. Allowing their only real opposition to grow to a sizable force when they can stamp it out now with little effort would not be "good", or "honorable", or even "fair", but stupid, and completely contrary to human nature.

Edit: typos

Edited February 27, 2011 by Hereno

[Schattenmann]

Hereno, your posts are stupid and have no thought in them because they are contrary to all recorded history and current reality. Leftist? Do you even know what you're typing?

e: Oh yeah, I have definitely become ~the monster~ watch as I do everything I decry, rawr.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Azaghul]

[quote name='+Zeke+' timestamp='1298704827' post='2645310']
The bold part says it all.

Rewriting the customs when convenient.


I once stood through a month long blizzard of hate in Dec 06 blasting from Pacifica while trying to defend New Reverie's shenanigans. Just NR and myself (and NR really wasn't helping) against Dilber and the entirety of NPO. We were all looooooong past hate during that month. The entirety of Bob stood poised to jump.

But guess what? The war didn't happen. Even Dilber believed that he needed something more than just anger to start GW2. Sure, he got it a month later with the GOONS rolling in on the emerging FARK alliance. But the point remains that all the anger in the world wasn't enough to roll Pacifica without what they considered a rock solid CB. Everyone knew things simply weren't done that way.

Wars required legitimacy in the past. I'm not a fool to believe that sometimes that legitimacy wasn't exactly legitimate, but the proper form was followed. Even the Polaris side of this war gives at least token effort to provide legitimacy. Furthermore, the weak CB's had their own consequences. When the CB faltered with the progression of time, the alliance bringing it lost standing and reputation. I can cite quite a few examples of this if you feel you've been living under a rock for the past few years. So without an honest CB, or at least one where the subterfuge was well covered, an alliance never truly enjoyed the fruits of victory.

And so shall this war end that way.
[/quote]
This is fine as long as CBs present themselves and war happens at reasonable intervals to keep everyone interested and things moving.

As I see it: war with CBs > war without CBs > stagnation / no war at all


(OOC: Some morality and requiring CBs in this game is good but it shouldn't come at the price of stagnation and boredom)

[Hereno]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1298834241' post='2646234']
Hereno, your posts are stupid and have no thought in them because they are contrary to all recorded history and current reality. Leftist? Do you even know what you're typing?

e: Oh yeah, I have definitely become ~the monster~ watch as I do everything I decry, rawr.
[/quote]

Thanks to this insightful parry of my arguments, I have seen the light. If only I had thought to go "lol, no, you're wrong and dumb", maybe I would be the one enjoying this victory.

Also, "leftist" is the nicest term I could think of for someone with an unfounded superiority complex who sits around whining about how terrible everyone else is, without doing anything truly significant to change the situation.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1298804682' post='2646084']
Nobody said anything as stupid as that. The reasons for the Karma war have evolved over time depending on the issue of the day. Karma was a very misleading movement that [u]did [/u]promise a new world, a world with no more forced disbandment’s, no more manufactured CBs or no CB wars, an end to EZI & eternal wars and an end to draconian reps. The draconian reps promise was broken before the end of the war, caffeine was banned from holding a government position and IRON was told they would be held in war indefinitely unless they surrendered unconditionally without knowing what terms would follow. In this war the ugly head of forced disbandment is back on the agenda.
[/quote]
It actually was "no draconian terms", terms are more than reps but I'll grant you the point on reps. For CBless wars, see my last post.

As for Caffeine and government, that had little support, was eventually ended, and was basically imposed by one alliance. Same with "unconditional surrender" from Gremlins/Ramirus, and that ended in the effective death of Gremlins when everyone else refused to go along with it and Gremlins slowly fell apart. As far as I know no one important is seriously pushing for disbanding anyone.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298833817' post='2646232']
And what contradiction would that be? Things are as just as the people with the power to change them say they are. That is my argument, and you've not made me contradict it once.



There is no one difference between a person like me and people like yourselves. First and foremost, you assume that you're the only ones who have put any thought into what you're saying, and refer to dissenters as barely human (if at all). Instead of showing respect, you jump like dogs to attack with vigor at the first sign of blood. You claim to be open to dissenting opinions, yet you're shocked to find they actually exist. You claim to fight for equality and fairness, yet refuse even humanity to anyone who doesn't agree with you. People deserve rights, but only if they're on your side. You run around telling those in power that they've become what they hated, yet are, yourself, exactly what you claim to hate. The point of having a right is that everyone, no matter their friends and enemies, gets that right. If you don't provide them for the people who you hate, who would destroy you if given the chance, then you don't believe in those rights at all. In truth, you, like many "leftists", are a walking contradiction of everything you claim to stand for.

As for NPO, they treated other people in ways that angered them and threatened their survival. That is why Karma became necessary. Just because moralists tried to take over the revolution does not mean Karma failed it's primary objective - to dethrone NPO and it's allies from their position of global dominance. Karma promised nobody anything more, or less. And now, those who NPO held authority over now hold authority over NPO, and are doing their best to ensure that NPO will never be able to gain authority again. In truth, I wouldn't expect anything different. Allowing their only real opposition to grow to a sizable force when they can stamp it out now with little effort would not be "good", or "honorable", or even "fair", but stupid, and completely contrary to human nature.

Edit: typos
[/quote]
Did you really just call us leftists?

Look, if you think "moralists" "hijacked" Karma, you really didn't pay attention to anything prior to Karma. NoCB was FULL of moral outrage, even from alliances like MK. Naturally though those in power now want an avenue to remove themselves from that past so they don't look like complete hypocrites while reaping all the benefits.

Now let's go on to your use of "good," "honorable," and "fair" and see why you contradicted yourself shall we? You already admitted you saw the NPO as having committed "bad deeds" (your words not mine). You also admitted that things become justifiable the moment you have enough force. How could NPO have committed bad deeds then? What would at all be the reason to have MK as the rulers of the world instead of NPO if both use the same avenue of justice? There would have literally been no reason for NPO to have fallen except that people wanted petty revenge and in which case the justifications of killing NPO again now are really pretty much pointless.

You can't advocate that something is bad unless there is something you view as opposite and desirable to that bad (usually this would be called "good"). Now that "good" can be "morally" based or it can be based on pragmatism. Either way there was a reason that not everybody kept justifying the NPO's actions.

I don't see how you can call out NPO for having misused power and then say that the misuse of power can't possibly be misuse. That literally makes no sense.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Earogema

[Earogema]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298835483' post='2646242']
Thanks to this insightful parry of my arguments, I have seen the light. If only I had thought to go "lol, no, you're wrong and dumb", maybe I would be the one enjoying this victory.

Also, "leftist" is the nicest term I could think of for someone with an unfounded superiority complex who sits around whining about how terrible everyone else is, without doing anything truly significant to change the situation.
[/quote]
We had more NS than you before the war and we still have more NS than you with 30 wars currently active whilst you have 3. Schattenmann was responsible for the creation of WCE (which is pretty much what this side is atm). Then you call us insignificant because we're debating the current situation that we are actually fighting for?

You sound more like a "leftist" than us.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Earogema' timestamp='1298835744' post='2646245']
Did you really just call us leftists?

Look, if you think "moralists" "hijacked" Karma, you really didn't pay attention to anything prior to Karma. NoCB was FULL of moral outrage, even from alliances like MK. Naturally though those in power now want an avenue to removed themselves from that past so they don't look like complete hypocrites while reaping all the benefits.

Now let's go on to your use of "good," "honorable," and "fair" and see why you contradicted yourself shall we? You already admitted you saw the NPO as having committed "bad deeds" (your words not mine). You also admitted that things become justifiable the moment you have enough force. How could NPO have committed bad deeds then? What would at all be the reason to have MK as the rulers of the world instead of NPO if both use the same avenue of justice? There would have literally been no reason for NPO to have fallen except that people wanted petty revenge and in which case the justifications of killing NPO again now are really pretty much pointless.

You can't advocate that something is bad unless there is something you view as opposite and desirable to that bad (usually this would be called "good"). Now that "good" can be "morally" based or it can be based on pragmatism. Either way there was a reason that not everybody kept justifying the NPO's actions.

I don't see how you can call out NPO for having misused power and then say that the misuse of power can't possibly be misuse. That literally makes no sense.
[/quote]

I don't see "wrong" and "right", I just see actions and the responses to those actions. Those in power dictate what is right and what is wrong. Back then, NPO dictated morality, and so obviously anything NPO did was justified to most. Power changed hands, and now those same actions are considered unjustified by most. And nobody knows what will be right/wrong if and when power changes hands again. History books change depending on what regime is in power. There is no definitive "wrong" and "right", only different viewpoints.

So, NPO did stuff to the people in power now that hampered their growth and threatened their survival. Now, NPO is on the receiving end. And instead of getting with the times and doing their best to make nice, they still oppose their old enemies, and so now their enemies are beating them down again. Why? Because why would you let your enemy grow when you can stop him short? If NPO doesn't want to get beat down, it needs to get enough friends to secure itself, or make itself not the enemy.

[quote]
We had more NS than you before the war and we still have more NS than you with 30 wars currently active whilst you have 3. Schattenmann was responsible for the creation of WCE (which is pretty much what this side is atm). Then you call us insignificant because we're debating the current situation that we are actually fighting for?

You sound more like a "leftist" than us.
[/quote]

Why would my alliance be working to change the world when we like the way it is now? I can post on the OWF without having my leader shush me or kick me out because "NPO might get mad and roll us." That's awesome!

Edited February 27, 2011 by Hereno

[Earogema]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298836908' post='2646259']
I don't see "wrong" and "right", I just see actions and the responses to those actions. Those in power dictate what is right and what is wrong. Back then, NPO dictated morality, and so obviously anything NPO did was justified to most. Power changed hands, and now those same actions are considered unjustified by most. And nobody knows what will be right/wrong if and when power changes hands again. History books change depending on what regime is in power. There is no definitive "wrong" and "right", only different viewpoints.

So, NPO did stuff to the people in power now that hampered their growth and threatened their survival. Now, NPO is on the receiving end. And instead of getting with the times and doing their best to make nice, they still oppose their old enemies, and so now their enemies are beating them down again. Why? Because why would you let your enemy grow when you can stop him short? If NPO doesn't want to get beat down, it needs to get enough friends to secure itself, or make itself not the enemy.
[/quote]
That still doesn't make any sense. Why would people assemble to take down the entity that decides justice? To decide their own justice (as you admitted). This means they have to have a preconceived knowledge of what they hold "just" that is different from the one that the current arbiter holds. People don't just make up morals and justice as they go on their actions, the actions are determined by the moral frameworks that the person has.

People don't just "act." Actions are not random. There is a reason/basis for those actions. Things don't just act and react. Well things that actually have personality don't. Those things are called "humans."

You also can't call something a "bad deed" if you don't believe things can really be "bad" (unless this is the "bad" that current hegemony has defined I suppose which is complete bull). Like I said, your very own words contradict you. You hold moral beliefs and you're trying to pretend that your moral beliefs are magically changed/non-existent. It's terrible rhetoric designed to make you seem different from "moralists" but anybody with a clue knows that you view things as wrong and as right otherwise there would have literally been no reason to attack NPO.

In addition if you're going to argue subjective viewpoints of good and evil then you should be goddamn aware of [i]why[/i] NPO feels outraged, but it seems subjectivity only works if it's in your favor.

Also once again, if NPO didn't want to say they were sorry for they're actions what kind of diplomacy could they have done that was not just them straight up lying? They didn't pretend to be nice because they weren't going to pretend to be something they're not, especially since everybody is going to dislike them anyway. NPO seems to have pride in what they did, instead of being without a backbone. I disagree with that, but it's a viewpoint that doesn't harm anybody.
[quote]
Why would my alliance be working to change the world when we like the way it is now? I can post on the OWF without having my leader shush me or kick me out because "NPO might get mad and roll us." That's awesome!
[/quote]
Things haven't been like that for literally a year and half since NPO got rolled, but don't let that stop you from saying bogus things! After all, now it's your right to look like a moron and NPO won't roll you for it!

You accused us of not working to change things when we are more powerful than Tetris and probably more relevant as well as actually at war (and will be for 1 month exactly tomorrow). Of course, you guys don't have to work because you like this world. Sounds a lot like pre-Karma NPO meatshield logic.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1298836908' post='2646259']
Why would my alliance be working to change the world when we like the way it is now? I can post on the OWF without having my leader shush me or kick me out because "NPO might get mad and roll us." That's awesome!
[/quote]

If your leaders were afraid of us and shushed you for political reasons, it sounds more like a moral crime on your leaders part than ours. No voice should be silenced out of fear. We issued no orders to silence any voice nor was it our place to do so against sovereign regimes. If they're asking you to be silent for they fear you will make a fool of yourself and your alliance, then again, that was their doings, not ours. Your outrage is misdirected. Come, join us in this war.. to set things straight. Get your voice back. I'd have more of a response if Earogema hadn't pretty much verbalized everything I had in mind.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex