A Dark Templar Announcement

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1297733452' post='2633692']
And I'm saying that it was wrong for such over the top reps to be offered in the first place.[/quote]

Did you see who was making the demand for reps? 30 pages of shock over Xiph and Goose asking for tens of thousands of tech for reps? Have all of you that are surprised had your head up your asses for the last 3 years? Go ahead take a walk down memory lane and read past surrenders and negotiations, nothing new here. It isnt wrong at all, it should have been expected, in the first place given the people involved.

DT did the best thing they could do, make it a PR issue.

Rinse repeat see you in 3-6 months when the next big fire cracker goes off.

[RePePe]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297736289' post='2633754']If you want to leave with minimal damages, you're going to have to pay some reps. Otherwise we'll see more alliances like DT enter in on color treaties to nuke a side of a war for a week then run off and rebuild.[/quote]

So you are punishing DT for entering the war in the same exact fashion as you yourself entered: optional defense? Is this the official opinion of CSN or are you, once again, talking out of your @$$?

[Penkala]

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1297736866' post='2633775']
Did you see who was making the demand for reps? 30 pages of shock over Xiph and Goose asking for tens of thousands of tech for reps? Have all of you that are surprised had your head up your asses for the last 3 years? Go ahead take a walk down memory lane and read past surrenders and negotiations, nothing new here. It isnt wrong at all, it should have been expected, in the first place given the people involved.

DT did the best thing they could do, make it a PR issue.

Rinse repeat see you in 3-6 months when the next big fire cracker goes off.
[/quote]

It's five percent of their tech over a 6 months period from DT.

And that was the cost to leave the war after just one week.

Please stop acting as if the reps are high.

[quote]So you are punishing DT for entering the war in the same exact fashion as you yourself entered: optional defense? Is this the official opinion of CSN or are you, once again, talking out of your @$$? [/quote]

DT is being punished for bandwagonning against a side they had no reason to attack, is my understanding. And no, I'm not even *in* CSN, so it's pretty clear that it's not the 'official opinion' of their alliance.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Penkala

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297736964' post='2633780']
It's five percent of their tech over a 6 months period from DT.

And that was the cost to leave the war after just one week.

Please stop acting as if the reps are high.
[/quote]

I dont care if they pay 100000 reps, I dont view things from a moralist point of view at all. I know your on one of your spew fests but you dont need to count me amongst the shocked and surprised. I think CSN should get whatever they can get DT to agree too. Although its refreshing to once again witness your zealousness in action, you are highly amusing I will give you that.

Every court needs a jester I suppose.

[RePePe]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297736964' post='2633780']DT is being punished for bandwagonning against a side they had no reason to attack, is my understanding.[/quote]

First, "bandwagonning" connotes jumping in on the curbstomping side of the curbstomp, which as we all know is not the case. Second, DT's reason to attack is just as valid, if not more valid, than CSN's reason to attack.

I'm not sure whether you choose to buy into the party lines or you are simply being obstinate. Either way, you seem to be wasting everyone's time with your drivel.

[Liz Girard]

[quote name='PrinceArutha' timestamp='1297736565' post='2633766']
Doesnt look like propaganda to me.... I havent seen anyone dispute what was said. Sure, DT has worded things in the OP in a light such as to hit on the points however, It looks pretty cut and dry. They posted the information that was already public and made it...More public? I think you understand where I am going on this one. I'm not trying to stir the pot or bash CSN. My personal opinion is that CSN is acting like an asshat and I know you (fairly well) and I believe that if you remove yourself from the situation and look at it from an unbiased 3rd party you might lean a little more towards my way of viewing the situation. Granted, my view MIGHT be a little skewed due to being friends with pretty much everyone in DT's government.
Also, having RIA jump DT who are already trying to negotiate peace terms doesnt seem like trying to "work things out".
[/quote]


I would like to reiterate for the population who didn't actually read the RIA thread, that RIA is not attacking DT, nor did they ever post such.

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297736289' post='2633754']
This is still going? Cute.

Listen, as much as you want to paint CSN as the next NPO, it's not going to happen. CSN gave you terms for an early exit from the war. If you don't want to take them, you don't have to. The terms will probably get lighter as the war continues. This is fairly normal in warfare. If you want to leave with minimal damages, you're going to have to pay some reps. Otherwise we'll see more alliances like DT enter in on color treaties to nuke a side of a war for a week then run off and rebuild.

The reps being asked of DT (10k) are not unreasonable. The total reps aren't so bad either. And DT could have negotiated them down. Instead, DT squandered negotiations on demands for white peace. Frankly, the fact that DT could bandwagon onto a side of the war and get off with only 30k tech if they played their cards right is hilarious. Especially given that only 10k of it would have actually come from DT. Over a 6 month period.

To clarify, CSN is asking for what (even now) amounts only to 7% of DT's total tech from them, over a 6-month period. It was probably closer to 5% before. And this is the charge to leave the war early.

So really, everyone needs to take a step back and take a deep breath. The war just started 2 weeks ago. CSN gave DT terms after a week of warfare. This war WILL be concluded with reasonable or no reps, period. And that's despite the incredibly obscene outside actions taken by DT and her supporters.

CSN is being more than fair. So stop screaming about injustice for a moment and look at the facts.

Let me lay this out for you: 2 nations using 5 aid slots could send 90% of DT's required aid in the allotted time. TWO NATIONS. That sure is some NPO level !@#$ right there, guys!
[/quote]
First, let's debunk the "leaving the war early" crap. We're into the prolonged stage. When the reason that the war began no longer exists, I would no longer consider it early. Seeing as the reason this front exists is LoSS' treaty to TIO, and TIO is now at peace, there is no reason that this war ought to continue. So I'm not sure why you think it's early.

Second, I see that you are making up figures. Aside from your own speculations, find one one instance where 10k tech is all that is asked of DT (which, of course, is still an absurdly high amount of reps given our situation). Stop cutting out 75% worth of the the tech demands.

Third, your bandwagoning crap has been thoroughly and completely proven to be asinine over the past week. We had a legitimate treaty with LoSS. We followed it. Then you started spewing crap about amount of treaties. We showed you how our treaties and our friendships led us to a certain declaration.

Fourth, I find it amusing that you call our conduct "obscene", but yet you support extortionist reps. It's pretty damned difficult to be credible (although I'd say I could count the amount of people who find you credible on one hand) when you have this sort of hypocrisy. Civil discourse on the OWF is by no means obscene. Saber-rattling threats and greed, however, are what I would categorize as obscene.

Lastly, you seem to believe that [i]any[/i] reparations are appropriate in this situation. While I do believe that we may have accepted mutual rebuilding terms, like mandated tech deals at the market rate, which do signify surrender but are not punitive nor are they malicious, anything that CSN has in mind is completely inappropriate. Especially given their bogus justification. Anyone who believes that CSN is not in this for power and money has deluded themselves.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297736289' post='2633754']
[b]To clarify, CSN is asking for what (even now) amounts only to 7% of DT's total tech from them, over a 6-month period. It was probably closer to 5% before. And this is the charge to leave the war early.[/b]
[/quote]


wth are you smoking? DT has 149,786 tech as of the time im typing this.......Im pretty sure 40,000 tech is FAR FAR larger a percentage of 149k then 7%......

Oh, were you trying to be cute and just wipe out the other 30k in tech from your calculations????

DT is also.....So why dont you get your pals to come off 40k and offer something more reasonable....like that 7% number you are throwing about up there???? That would be 10485.02

Still rediculous but at least in the realms of sanity.....

[Penkala]

[quote name='MaGneT' timestamp='1297737918' post='2633802']
First, let's debunk the "leaving the war early" crap. We're into the prolonged stage. When the reason that the war began no longer exists, I would no longer consider it early. Seeing as the reason this front exists is LoSS' treaty to TIO, and TIO is now at peace, there is no reason that this war ought to continue. So I'm not sure why you think it's early.

Second, I see that you are making up figures. Aside from your own speculations, find one one instance where 10k tech is all that is asked of DT (which, of course, is still an absurdly high amount of reps given our situation). Stop cutting out 75% worth of the the tech demands.

Third, your bandwagoning crap has been thoroughly and completely proven to be asinine over the past week. We had a legitimate treaty with LoSS. We followed it. Then you started spewing crap about amount of treaties. We showed you how our treaties and our friendships led us to a certain declaration.

Fourth, I find it amusing that you call our conduct "obscene", but yet you support extortionist reps. It's pretty damned difficult to be credible (although I'd say I could count the amount of people who find you credible on one hand) when you have this sort of hypocrisy. Civil discourse on the OWF is by no means obscene. Saber-rattling threats and greed, however, are what I would categorize as obscene.

Lastly, you seem to believe that [i]any[/i] reparations are appropriate in this situation. While I do believe that we may have accepted mutual rebuilding terms, like mandated tech deals at the market rate, which do signify surrender but are not punitive nor are they malicious, anything that CSN has in mind is completely inappropriate. Especially given their bogus justification. Anyone who believes that CSN is not in this for power and money has deluded themselves.
[/quote]
DT itself would only pay 10k of the tech. That was the deal.

And it's your 'We had a treaty!' claim that's been destroyed. See the quote in my sig. You didn't enter this to help out your "ally" in LoSS, and you didn't particularly care what happened to them. You entered the war using the treaty as an excuse to hit Legacy, then tried to get white peace a week later.

5% of your tech after 1 week of war (it's sure to drop) is not extortionist. 20% if you had paid every single penny by yourself.

Mandated tech deals at the market rate are not really terms. These terms are punitive and for good reason. The precedent should not be set that you can use a color treaty as an excuse to hit someone for a week then obtain white peace.

[quote]wth are you smoking? DT has 149,786 tech as of the time im typing this.......Im pretty sure 40,000 tech is FAR FAR larger a percentage of 149k then 7%......

Oh, were you trying to be cute and just wipe out the other 30k in tech from your calculations???? [/quote]

I'm pretty sure DT only has to pay 10k of the tech under the terms agreed to by both parties, but later revoked by DT.

In fact, I'm positive of it.

That's 6.7% *now*, it was obviously a lower percent when the terms were offered.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Penkala

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297739119' post='2633837']
DT itself would only pay 10k of the tech. That was the deal.

And it's your 'We had a treaty!' claim that's been destroyed. See the quote in my sig. You didn't enter this to help out your "ally" in LoSS, and you didn't particularly care what happened to them. You entered the war using the treaty as an excuse to hit Legacy, then tried to get white peace a week later.

5% of your tech after 1 week of war (it's sure to drop) is not extortionist. 20% if you had paid every single penny by yourself.

Mandated tech deals at the market rate are not really terms. These terms are punitive and for good reason. The precedent should not be set that you can use a color treaty as an excuse to hit someone for a week then obtain white peace.
[/quote]

DT itself would only pay 10k?

how is that possible if CSN is asking for 40k?

Thats the amount we are talking....not 10k from just them. Like any promisary note DT would be on the hook for the entire balance of whatever they agree too regardless of what help they may or may not get from friends.....so yea 40k is the number Sir spin-a-lot.

[Penkala]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1297739339' post='2633841']
DT itself would only pay 10k?

how is that possible if CSN is asking for 40k?

Thats the amount we are talking....not 10k from just them. Like any promisary note DT would be on the hook for the entire balance of whatever they agree too regardless of what help they may or may not get from friends.....so yea 40k is the number Sir spin-a-lot.
[/quote]

DT pays 10k, outside forces pay 30k. That was the deal, chefjoe.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297739417' post='2633846']
DT pays 10k, outside forces pay 30k. That was the deal, chefjoe.
[/quote]

I understand the 'deal' penkala.....do you?

Lets see.....if i promise to pay someone 40k, and ill give them 10k right now from my own inventory and get friends to pay the other 30k thats good yea?

what happens if for whatever reason those friends cannot come thru?

then im on the hook for the ENTIRE 40k I promised to pay.

no diff from this DT situation...the total is 40k atm....no amount of bs gets around that

Please keep spinning though penkala its amusing me to see how far you can stretch the facts and still remain somewhat legible.

Edited February 15, 2011 by chefjoe

[Captain Flinders]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297739119' post='2633837']
And it's your 'We had a treaty!' claim that's been destroyed. See the quote in my sig. You didn't enter this to help out your "ally" in LoSS, and you didn't particularly care what happened to them. You entered the war using the treaty as an excuse to hit Legacy, then tried to get white peace a week later.[/quote]
If they didn't care, they would not have entered. Voicing a concern over lack of coordination does not invalidate their willingness to honor their ODP. Since when are treaties an "excuse" to go to war? They are a reason, certainly not an excuse.

But since you've become CSN/GOD/whoever's cheer leader, maybe you can shed some light on something for me. The post got kinda lost in the shuffle and I'm genuinely curious as to a glaring contradiction I seem to be picking up on.

[quote name='Captain Flinders' timestamp='1297680626' post='2632830']
DT didn't hit CSN, they hit Legacy. An alliance who (as far as I understad though it may have changed) were alright with white peace with DT.

Though maybe you can clarify something for me. How is it that your government, assuming you support Xiphosis' stance, can claim such outrage towards the activation of a oA clause when DT did it, yet support CSN in their activation of the same kind clause against LoSS? Yes, yes supporting allies and all that, but surely you can see the double standard here. Supporting them in their decisions is one thing, but GOD has gone far and beyond as far as their involvement in the CSN/DT discussions. So clearly there's a level of personal investment here that contradicts what your government claims to stand for.
[/quote]

[Penkala]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1297739596' post='2633852']
I understand the 'deal' penkala.....do you?

Lets see.....if i promise to pay someone 40k, and ill give them 10k right now from my own inventory and get friends to pay the other 30k thats good yea?

what happens if for whatever reason those friends cannot come thru?

then im on the hook for the ENTIRE 40k I promised to pay.

no diff from this DT situation...the total is 40k atm....no amount of bs gets around that

Please keep spinning though penkala its amusing me to see how far you can stretch the facts and still remain somewhat legible.
[/quote]

Sounds like you don't have a lot of faith in DT's allies.

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1297739596' post='2633852']
I understand the 'deal' penkala.....do you?

Lets see.....if i promise to pay someone 40k, and ill give them 10k right now from my own inventory and get friends to pay the other 30k thats good yea?

what happens if for whatever reason those friends cannot come thru?

then im on the hook for the ENTIRE 40k I promised to pay.

no diff from this DT situation...the total is 40k atm....no amount of bs gets around that

Please keep spinning though penkala its amusing me to see how far you can stretch the facts and still remain somewhat legible.
[/quote]

He's not spinning, he's a mathamagician. He has the power to make numbers mean what ever he wants them to mean,

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297739119' post='2633837']
DT itself would only pay 10k of the tech. That was the deal.

And it's your 'We had a treaty!' claim that's been destroyed. See the quote in my sig. You didn't enter this to help out your "ally" in LoSS, and you didn't particularly care what happened to them. You entered the war using the treaty as an excuse to hit Legacy, then tried to get white peace a week later.

5% of your tech after 1 week of war (it's sure to drop) is not extortionist. 20% if you had paid every single penny by yourself.

Mandated tech deals at the market rate are not really terms. These terms are punitive and for good reason. The precedent should not be set that you can use a color treaty as an excuse to hit someone for a week then obtain white peace.



I'm pretty sure DT only has to pay 10k of the tech under the terms agreed to by both parties, but later revoked by DT.

In fact, I'm positive of it.

That's 6.7% *now*, it was obviously a lower percent when the terms were offered.
[/quote]
So you now posit that Titan's statement that we have better coordination than LoSS represents not only that we did not enter the war to defend LoSS, but that we also do not care what happens to them all for the purpose of getting a cheap shot in at Legacy. Given that the conclusion that you have surmised using what must have been pure objective reason and logic based only on factual evidence, we should further investigate this.
Considering that I have a passion for truth, I would like to see the evidence that you have procured for all of these things. If LoSS is our "ally" and not indeed our ally according to you, what gave you this idea? Generally I would call two alliances with a defense-level treaty allies. I'm curious as to why that is not the case.
Next, you seem to insinuate that we had a malicious intent in attacking Legacy. Let's just run with that one too. Can you establish a motive? A history of poor relations perhaps? Actually, the contrary is true. Legacy draws many people from an alliance that DT was once very friendly with before they disbanded, the Immortals. I wonder why we hate them all of a sudden . . . oh, and if we attacked them so maliciously, then why is it CSN and not Legacy who is demanding these reparations?
As far as your nonsense about the color treaty, there is a reason that the treaty includes an optional defense provision. It is in case you have a friend in the color bloc that you would like to defend. Sorry that DT chooses to defend allies in a way that is most convenient towards CSN victory, but I wouldn't call that a reason for extortion.

And yes, in this case, reparations to CSN are extortion. I don't care what the amount is. DT has done [i]nothing[/i] to warrant this. Your "best" arguments at this point are criticizing the validity of color bloc treaties' defense clauses actually being honored and twisting and turning an IRC quote in a way that even a being known as Glenn Beck on a distant planet could never, ever imagine.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297740014' post='2633868']
Sounds like you don't have a lot of faith in DT's allies.
[/quote]

or maybe i dont have much faith in DT's allies being left alone unmolested during the time frame outlined for payments.

And whom would carry the blame for that one?

/me looks at all the pre-empts going around


ALSO, i love how you cannot refute my argument

Edited February 15, 2011 by chefjoe

[reroll]

insert 2 cents here.....


1...no one likes a complainer.
2...the winner writes the history.
3...no one likes a complainer.
4...writing your own peace terms works well....but then you usually wake up.
5...no one likes a complainer.
6...if you don't like the terms then don't accept them.
7...no one likes....well u get the point.
8...get some of your allies to go at CSN.
9...derp de derp
10...profit

[MaGneT]

[quote name='reroll' timestamp='1297742455' post='2633941']
insert 2 cents here.....


1...no one likes a complainer.
2...the winner writes the history.
3...no one likes a complainer.
4...writing your own peace terms works well....but then you usually wake up.
5...no one likes a complainer.
6...if you don't like the terms then don't accept them.
7...no one likes....well u get the point.
8...get some of your allies to go at CSN.
9...derp de derp
10...profit
[/quote]
I could think of many more things that would be worth more than two cents. But thank you for yours, it seems to prove the kind of intellect that we are facing here.

[Believland]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297739119' post='2633837']
DT itself would only pay 10k of the tech. That was the deal.

And it's your 'We had a treaty!' claim that's been destroyed. See the quote in my sig. You didn't enter this to help out your "ally" in LoSS, and you didn't particularly care what happened to them. You entered the war using the treaty as an excuse to hit Legacy, then tried to get white peace a week later.

5% of your tech after 1 week of war (it's sure to drop) is not extortionist. 20% if you had paid every single penny by yourself.

Mandated tech deals at the market rate are not really terms. These terms are punitive and for good reason. The precedent should not be set that you can use a color treaty as an excuse to hit someone for a week then obtain white peace.



I'm pretty sure DT only has to pay 10k of the tech under the terms agreed to by both parties, but later revoked by DT.

In fact, I'm positive of it.

That's 6.7% *now*, it was obviously a lower percent when the terms were offered.
[/quote]

Correct, DT is only obligated to pay 10k of the 40k reps. But, most of the 30k will still be payed by them.

TiTaN's quote means nothing in all honesty. He's saying that LoSS is inactive and un-coordinated. Which it is. If you're trying to insist that DT isn't fully in this war then you may need to go back to Coalition Warfare 101. As shown [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=98618&st=320&p=2632456&#entry2632456"]here[/url], DT was going to be on the side they're currently in. Now they didn't need to to attack WF because NoR and NV were still giving them a handful. Now I don't know the specific reason they hit Legacy but, it probably had to do with no one attacking them.

Let's be honest here, colour treaties are only good for helping out in coalition warfare. Especially in the black sphere. Both sides can attest for that. It's in perfect right to use an ODP to help an ally's coalition.

Again they're only obligated to pay 10k tech in reps. Now let's be honest here, they're also going to be paying for most of their reps because they're not the type of alliance to accept their allies' aid.

[reroll]

another 2 cents...

[quote name='Icheliebebrad' timestamp='1297645923' post='2631746']....Do we admit that it was mildly cheeky of us to do? Absolutely.....
[/quote]

Looks like that cheeky remark has come back to bite you guys on the body part that connects your legs to your back. Just an observation. Cheers.

edit spelling.

Edited February 15, 2011 by reroll

[MaGneT]

[quote name='reroll' timestamp='1297744092' post='2633969']
another 2 cents...



Looks like that cheeky remark has come back to bite you guys on the body part that connects your legs to your back. Just an observation. Cheers.

edit spelling.
[/quote]
Ah. Yes. Because 40,000 tech was proposed after an apology was suggested.
Clearly you have the ability to think.

[reroll]

I dont care about reps, or white peace or DT's constant complaining about the situation they find themselves in....Im stating an observation. In fact, with that one remark, I would have said the h, e, double hockey sticks with you guys if I were Goose too. Alas, I am not Goose. I am much too good looking and have no need for viagra.

[Believland]

[quote name='reroll' timestamp='1297744092' post='2633969']
another 2 cents...



Looks like that cheeky remark has come back to bite you guys on the body part that connects your legs to your back. Just an observation. Cheers.

edit spelling.
[/quote]

Hey buddy, I have a lot of money so you don't have to give your 2 cents anymore.

[reroll]

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1297744650' post='2634000']
Hey buddy, I have a lot of money so you don't have to give your 2 cents anymore.
[/quote]

...and here I was under the impression that this was an open world forum where anyone could speak about the subject. Apparently I was wrong...according to bevis there anyways. Cheers.

Edited February 15, 2011 by reroll