The GM's Court

[Sarah Tintagyl]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=102212&view=findpost&p=2721970

I ask that Kankou not be allowed to RP success in that way. I believe there were past rulings where spy successes had to be RPed out and more so than one paragraph. I request that her spy rolls be moved to a thread, I will have it up as soon as this is ruled on but as to make it fun for both of us. Not just her waltzing in and stealing whatever she pleases. If spy rolls are enough to incorporate success, we might as well bring TE back and make this a number game.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Sarah Tintagyl

[Kankou]

Rather than drag things out, I accept Sarah's request, but ask that the RP be done within the Teutonic Knights thread. Please edit your post into an RP one

Edit 1: BTW, I'll be away starting today, and returning on the 6th, so please be patient with the response.

Edit 2: Still waiting for my three rolls against Zoot. References: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97237&view=findpost&p=2721814 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97237&view=findpost&p=2721948

Edit 3: I dislike pure OOC posts in my thread, especially if it is for confirming something that could have been done in this thread.

Edited June 1, 2011 by Kankou

[Triyun]

[quote name='Sargun' timestamp='1306946218' post='2722047']
Not only have I RP'd selling things multiple times over many years (and the underlying civilian sales that nobody ever remembers that I've mentioned on IRC before at least a dozen times, even specifically to you twice), but Artemis maintains no standing armies and only operates a single factory, and a headquarters in Vienna as well as a single hospital backed with an extreme amount of money that was never used over the years. Pick another example and get your facts right - especially if you decide to use Artemis as an example, who has been given two separate GM approvals over the course of several months and been RP'd out extensively for a long time.[/quote]

Which GMs?

If that is the case, then why was Artemis's arctic base still on the map for many years. Its hard to foresee how Artemis could not burn through cash just like any other corporation especially if it was developing and designing high tech systems. High tech systems require advanced scientific degrees to build, and high skilled labor like that generally is able to demand both high salary, and long term health care, pension etc. Further developing high tech is very front heavy capital instensive and requires high maintenance costs.

In the case of standing armies, I am glad to hear that. Checking with the current crop of GMs I was told something different.

[quote]For the purposes of this particular debate, I've used spy odds as a non-state entity but I [b]always[/b] had a relatively thorough post specifically stating what steps I took to prevent my identity from being revealed (I don't have a post on hand because search sucks, but if when I hacked England I did the same kind of posts). I believe that we should continue doing what we have done before, allowing non-state entities to do spy rolls, as long as there is more RP involved than your state entity.

Furthermore, it has [b]always[/b] been that you use forces deducted from your in-game nation and in-rp nation to go for non-state entities. At one point, I had more troops in Artemis than I did in my state entity. The only way this could be abused is with the insta-respawn of troops, which should be looked at for everybody. If we fix insta-respawn, then the ability for abuse via non-state entities goes away almost entirely.
[/quote]

I would agree with this with the sole caveat of spy assets. You should not have both.

[Executive Minister]

Being the generally unsavory GM that I am, I will offer my own personal insight into the matter, gathered into a number of points for clarity and my own sanity. Please note this is not comprehensive by a long shot - I may have missed something important.

1) Anything goes in a closed thread amongst agreed participants.

2) If you wish to have a separate (unrelated to your IC nation) entity, you may do so under a number of conditions (I might have missed some):

- If this entity is to have any tangible military capacity that is meant to be utilized and recognized by the community, it must be taken from your IG capacity. Your total IG strength is the sum of any or all such entities.

[i]Ie: I have 1,000,000 IC troops possible, and two organizations. I can RP one organization/nation with 1 soldier, the other 999,999, it does not matter. Both entities would have the same capability overall with regards to tech (year, in our tech scale). [/i]
Whether or not you choose to spread your strength is up to you and at your own risk.

- You must not develop and reacquire sovereign lands with a made up entity in the eventuality that another entity of yours may obtain them, unless the lands in question were originally your own.

[i]Ie: I own Sudan, Ethiopia and parts of Kenya and Uganda. If I RP with Nod and Aeon, and the Aeon owns everything but Uganda, and Nod eventually invades and captures Ethiopia using Uganda as a base, it is allowed. If I RP the Aeon and decide to RP the Free Algerian Independent Legion, claiming Algeria as FAIL's territory, I cannot utilize FAIL to obtain extra land (Algeria) for the Aeon. Whether or not this is FAIL disbanding and giving control to Aeon, or the Aeon invading FAIL, I cannot in good conscience claim Algeria for the Aeon.[/i]

- If you desire an entity that has nothing to do with your main state, mean that. If one entity aids the other in some way, then it no longer 'has nothing to do with it'. Of course this is subject to a case by case basis - I recall someone RPing some random abstract entity (a madman of certain nationality) destroying a vessel under the guise of that nation, which forced the owner of that vessel to attempt an invasion of that 'innocent' nation. This was allowed. Does this mean I can RP a dozen factions separate from one another that 'happen' to dislike Torun, for example, and attack Torun with those factions before finally attacking with my main faction? Perhaps, perhaps not. Should the GMs deem my conduct inappropriate, they'll smite it for the good of the boards. If I am wily enough that it's all legitimate, so be it, I'm an !@#$%^&.

- As of right now, Spy Rolls are obviously conducted with your IG nation's spy odds and strength behind it. Is it fair? Maybe yes, maybe no. We haven't done anything about that yet, we might though. As of now there is no convention or guideline for cooking up modified spy odds for separate entities, perhaps a division of your total odds by the number of entities you RP? We don't know.

3) Don't be a !@#$% with your entities. Tying into the land, spy rolls and 'having nothing to do with it' blurbs, don't use your entities to further some grand master plan of yours. We might not catch it at first, but eventually someone will cry foul. Don't land grab, don't use your little armies as jabs before you're ready for the haymaker, and don't use your 3 factions in an attempt to get 6 spy rolls a day. Case-by-case basis rules these boards atm, and if given notice, the GMs now and in the future will look into all complaints made.

4) The EM types too much.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Executive Minister

[Sargun II]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1306993646' post='2722428']
Which GMs?

If that is the case, then why was Artemis's arctic base still on the map for many years. Its hard to foresee how Artemis could not burn through cash just like any other corporation especially if it was developing and designing high tech systems. High tech systems require advanced scientific degrees to build, and high skilled labor like that generally is able to demand both high salary, and long term health care, pension etc. Further developing high tech is very front heavy capital instensive and requires high maintenance costs.

In the case of standing armies, I am glad to hear that. Checking with the current crop of GMs I was told something different.

I would agree with this with the sole caveat of spy assets. You should not have both.
[/quote]
I don't remember the first one because tbh it was so long ago, but I specifically explicitly remember iamthey saying that I could operate Artemis normally as long as:
A) The troops were taken from my own count
and B) I had good RP behind it, especially if it were related to my state entity (or at least I remember it had to be related to my state entity in some way)
I would show you when he said this, but it was via PM and I have deleted my PMs several times. You can ask him when he gets on. However, I hope you don't think me low enough to actually make up something iamthey said.

Artemis' [b]Antarctic[/b] base is still on the map because it's a single factory and base, and while admittedly it would take up a lot of money for maintenance I would refer you to my first point that people miss: I still sell things even though I don't RP it all the time. I don't RP my nation getting tax collections and I don't RP all my company's transactions; however, it has invested in foreign nations and bought stocks in companies and saved up a lot of money from various transactions, and has considerably slowed down developing technology; in fact, its main goal right now is being the world's largest humanitarian outfit (which I have mentioned four times at least), and I'm hoping you're not so pedantic as to need to have me RP all the !@#$%^&* that goes along with that. Artemis is, at best, a passive company that is much smaller and different than what it once was. Further, Artemis' affiliate that Yawoo RPs would also bring in money, especially since it's active - and while this hasn't been stated explicitly IC, the affiliate would be doing all the standing army work while Artemis does everything else.

The current GMs, though doing a great job, are wrong quite a bit

Anyway, if you still have concerns or think that there's some sort of problem with Artemis, I'd be glad to correct any misconceptions.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1306959763' post='2722135']
Still waiting for my three rolls against Zoot. References: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97237&view=findpost&p=2721814 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97237&view=findpost&p=2721948[/quote]

Still waiting.

Also, add in 2 rolls against Sarah (90% like the last time) for today.



[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1307019181' post='2722532']
don't use your 3 factions in an attempt to get 6 spy rolls a day. [/quote]
Each faction gets 2 rolls? Are you sure you haven't smoked pot or something?

[Centurius]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1307393806' post='2725587']
Still waiting.

Also, add in 2 rolls against Sarah (90% like the last time) for today.




Each faction gets 2 rolls? Are you sure you haven't smoked pot or something?
[/quote]

I will need another screenshot.

As for the rolls, they are playerbound not entity bound. You could have a million organizations and still only get 2 rolls total.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Centurius

[Centurius]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1306903709' post='2721814']
[IMG]http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/kousenkankou/zootspyroll.jpg[/IMG]

Against Zoot, to gather informtion on the leader of the Templar Knights, committed by Teutonic Knights.
[/quote]
[img]http://data.treksimming.com/rolls/rollskankou.png[/img]

1-50 Being failure and 51-100 success.

Both rolls fail.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307398641' post='2725678']
I will need another screenshot.[/quote]

[IMG]http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/kousenkankou/sarahspy2.jpg[/IMG]


[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307398641' post='2725678']
As for the rolls, they are playerbound not entity bound. You could have a million organizations and still only get 2 rolls total.
[/quote]

Had to confirm since EM said something to the contrary, which is why I asked if he was lucid :v

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307398932' post='2725685']
[img]http://data.treksimming.com/rolls/rollskankou.png[/img]

1-50 Being failure and 51-100 success.

Both rolls fail.
[/quote]

You still got another Zoot roll to do.

[Captain Enema]

Splinter groups should not have the full capabilities of a nation. Unlike a nation they do not have the resources to call upon to create the capabilities that come with being involved with a national service unit.

This is getting to be a bit of a farce and turning spy rolls into another Mudd style catastrophe.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1307404278' post='2725766']
Splinter groups should not have the full capabilities of a nation. Unlike a nation they do not have the resources to call upon to create the capabilities that come with being involved with a national service unit.

This is getting to be a bit of a farce and turning spy rolls into another Mudd style catastrophe.
[/quote]
If you're talking about me..... I'm trying to steal some artifacts from a museum (which now has some mechas which I have to deal with) and spying on another military order which needs to be declared infidels and crusaded upon.

Nothing about fighting on the same capacity as a nation so far.

[Executive Minister]

What part of 'Don't do X' don't you understand, Kankou?

[Triyun]

Requesting spyrolls on stealing the Crown of Silla and Kim Jong Un's Diary.

[img]http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2091/karmasucks.png[/img]

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307418856' post='2725895']
Requesting spyrolls on stealing the Crown of Silla and Kim Jong Un's Diary.

[img]http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2091/karmasucks.png[/img]
[/quote]

At 90 percent odds, with 1-10 being fail and 11-100 being success, the rolls are,

[IMG]http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww110/gokulvarmank/1-3.png[/IMG]

Two wins

[Kankou]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=97237&view=findpost&p=2725759

As requested earlier, one roll at 50% against Zoot for 5/31, and two rolls against Sarah (continuing the treasure RP) for 6/6.



[IMG]http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/kousenkankou/triyunspy.jpg[/IMG]

Two rolls against Triyun, counterintelligence against his stealing attempts, for 6/7.

[Kankou]

Another two rolls against Triyun please.

Could a GM please do the rolls? I notice there has been a few posts by GMs, but no particular looks in here.

[Triyun]

I want a roll on her roll, also a roll please.

[Justinian the Mighty]

Yo dawg I herd you like spying, so we put a spy in your spy so you can roll while you roll.









...i dunno.

[Centurius]

Just a general note, we're not doing counter-rolls, when a certain roll passes it's done, the only way how it can be halted is through rp.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1307573624' post='2727344']
I want a roll on her roll, also a roll please.
[/quote]

Just for the sake of arguing, until when are rolls against rolls possible? In Triyun's case, I'm attempting counterintelligence. Should I succeed, could the counterintelligence be countered, and if so, wouldn't this be a mere numbers game, exactly the type that was shot done a few days ago?


PS: By counterintelligence, I mean tracking down who the agents are, not stopping the attempt itself. Triyun would need to do quite a bit of rolling before he can even set foot inside the complex where his targets are

Edited June 8, 2011 by Kankou

[Centurius]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1307575165' post='2727361']
Just for the sake of arguing, until when are rolls against rolls possible? In Triyun's case, I'm attempting counterintelligence. Should I succeed, could the counterintelligence be countered, and if so, wouldn't this be a mere numbers game, exactly the type that was shot done a few days ago?
[/quote]

It stops at the first roll, no counter-rolls at all. The counter-roll is included in the risk of failing.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1307575241' post='2727362']
It stops at the first roll, no counter-rolls at all. The counter-roll is included in the risk of failing.
[/quote]

That doesn't quite make sense. Given how someone could just say "my agent failed and died" or whatever to completely cover the tracks, this would jusrt be a constant numbers game. Or is it that I wait until the spy RP is finished before I can do my counterintelligence rolls?


PS: Regardless of the Triyun roll requests, there still are the one Zoot roll and two Sarah rolls that needs to be done.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Kankou

[Aggressivenutmeg]

would I be right to assume that nuclear artillery shells would be taken out of the nuclear weapons numbers?

Edited June 9, 2011 by Aggressivenutmeg

[iKrolm]

[quote name='Aggressivenutmeg' timestamp='1307613684' post='2727800']
would I be right to assume that nuclear artillery shells would be taken out of the nuclear weapons numbers?
[/quote]

That is correct: 20 total warheads, 25 with hidden nuclear missile silo.

Edited June 9, 2011 by iKrolm

[Executive Minister]

if the rolls aren't done by the time i get back tonight, i'll do em all (except for this counter roll non-sense). If a roll fails, that's your chance to counter someone's nefarious plots. We don't do counter rolls here - wouldn't wanna give us GMs too much work now.