nutkase Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284150774' post='2449034'] You forget that spy operations cost money, money he would need to pay you folks hence the spy option would not be beneficial for him either. Forcing him to throw away 80M comes pretty close to petty grudges. [/quote] Moral of the story, don't go rogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stilcho Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284150774' post='2449034'] You forget that spy operations cost money, money he would need to pay you folks hence the spy option would not be beneficial for him either. Forcing him to throw away 80M comes pretty close to petty grudges. [/quote] What do you consider a non-petty reason? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 I'm impressed by how patient GOONS have been in this matter, good show guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre27 Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1284150838' post='2449035'] Moral of the story, don't go rogue. [/quote] Or in this case (from the view of Methrage) engage in an alliance war when your outnumbered 300-2 I don't support rogue actions from anyone even when directed at alliances i have little love for. On the other hand i don't like actions like forced wonder decommissions, or forced destruction of 80M. That and the proposed reps is just trying to squeeze the lemon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stilcho Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1284151016' post='2449039'] I'm impressed by how patient GOONS have been in this matter, good show guys. [/quote] There's nothing else to do. The dance must be performed. All terms argued, offered or suggested will end the same as it always has with Methrage. "I'll agree that I made mistakes if you will agree that you were wrong" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT Jag Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 I'm sure that a compromise could be reached in terms of the spy thing. Don't decommission 800 or 550 or however many spies, but cut them in half perhaps so he would still be spyable in the meantime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutkase Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284151177' post='2449043'] Or in this case (from the view of Methrage) engage in an alliance war when your outnumbered 300-2 I don't support rogue actions from anyone even when directed at alliances i have little love for. On the other hand i don't like actions like forced wonder decommissions, or forced destruction of 80M. That and the proposed reps is just trying to squeeze the lemon. [/quote] He surely wouldn't of expected to be able to just walk away after this. While I don't support forced wonder decommission. Methrage really does not have a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining about what GOONS seek, as he was the one that started this whole affair. People need to be held responsible for their actions. Edited September 10, 2010 by nutkase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284150774' post='2449034'] You forget that spy operations cost money, money he would need to pay you folks hence the spy option would not be beneficial for him either. Forcing him to throw away 80M comes pretty close to petty grudges. [/quote] I'm going to need money to make the tech to send them and even get big enough to make decent collections. I'm willing to sell them 1,800 tech though. 6 tech deals at $3m per 100 tech and 12 at $4.5m per 100 tech. If I used all my slots doing single slot deals at maximum efficiency, it would be 9 weeks of selling them tech. Edit: It could be 9 at $3m per 100 tech and 9 at $4.5m per 100 tech if they need time to get FAC. Edited September 10, 2010 by Methrage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The MVP Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) Andre, why are you the way that you are? Honestly whenever someone tries to do something fun and exciting you make things not that way. I hate, so much, about the things that you choose to be... Edited September 10, 2010 by The MVP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre27 Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='nutkase' timestamp='1284151489' post='2449048'] He surely wouldn't of expected to be able to just walk away after this. While I don't support forced wonder decommission. Methrage really does not have a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining about what GOONS seek, as he was the one that started this whole affair. People need to be held responsible for their actions. [/quote] I believe the reps in tech are more than sufficient especially considering the low tier at which the war raged. Everything is cheap down there. [quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284152144' post='2449052'] I'm going to need money to make the tech to send them and even get big enough to make decent collections. I'm willing to sell them 1,800 tech though. 6 tech deals at $3m per 100 tech and 12 at $4.5m per 100 tech. If I used all my slots doing single slot deals at maximum efficiency, it would be 9 weeks of selling them tech. [/quote] That was the point why i said the whole "get rid of spies" was pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandolus Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284152350' post='2449054'] That was the point why i said the whole "get rid of spies" was pointless. [/quote] Last time we let Methrage off the hook there was a rash of mysterious spy ops hitting goons in Methrage's range until we all bought up enough spies to make the odds unfavourable. Now there's no [b]proof[/b] that it was Methrage, but he is one of a few people with enough spies to pull that off at a low ns and enough of a grudge to risk it. But really, who the hell asked you? You want to talk petty, how about some wonderful person of value with a chip on his shoulder hounding a topic that has nothing to do with him whatsoever? Edited September 11, 2010 by Mandolus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalstrs Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284152144' post='2449052'] I'm going to need money to make the tech to send them and even get big enough to make decent collections. I'm willing to sell them 1,800 tech though. 6 tech deals at $3m per 100 tech and 12 at $4.5m per 100 tech. If I used all my slots doing single slot deals at maximum efficiency, it would be 9 weeks of selling them tech. Edit: It could be 9 at $3m per 100 tech and 9 at $4.5m per 100 tech if they need time to get FAC. [/quote] So you would give us the same or worse rate then what we can get on the open market? This is a terrible compromise. IF we were going to do anything like that you would have to be giving us 3/150 deals, otherwise it's just like white peace except we would be helping you rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haquertal Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1284153122' post='2449074'] So you would give us the same or worse rate then what we can get on the open market? This is a terrible compromise. IF we were going to do anything like that you would have to be giving us 3/150 deals, otherwise it's just like white peace except we would be helping you rebuild. [/quote] Pretty much this. We're not here to help you rebuild in this situation (or really, ever), so the best you could hope to do is 3/150's. Sorry Methrage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktarthan Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284150774' post='2449034'] You forget that spy operations cost money, money he would need to pay you folks hence the spy option would not be beneficial for him either. Forcing him to throw away 80M comes pretty close to petty grudges. [/quote] It makes as much sense for him to spy us while paying reps as it would for us to spy him while he is paying reps. My point is that you are trying to make a point based on a hypothetical situation you came up with due to your low opinion of the integrity of GOONS. Also, last time I saw he was down to about 500 spies. 50M isn't chump change, but it's substantially less than 80M. I guess if we stay at war long enough we'll get his spies down to 0 through defeat alerts regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarbles Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='Haquertal' timestamp='1284153552' post='2449079'] Pretty much this. We're not here to help you rebuild in this situation (or really, ever), so the best you could hope to do is 3/150's. Sorry Methrage. [/quote] Let's not be too hasty friends, I kind of like the idea of reps that don't benefit us whatsoever and help Methrage rebuild his nation after he declared war on us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre27 Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1284153666' post='2449083'] It makes as much sense for him to spy us while paying reps as it would for us to spy him while he is paying reps. My point is that you are trying to make a point based on a hypothetical situation you came up with due to your low opinion of the integrity of GOONS. Also, last time I saw he was down to about 500 spies. 50M isn't chump change, but it's substantially less than 80M. I guess if we stay at war long enough we'll get his spies down to 0 through defeat alerts regardless. [/quote] You are correct that i do not hold a high opinion of GOONS, but if it makes you feel better i do not think highly of Methrage and his crusade either. The analyses i presented is still sound though. At roughly 2k NS without full trades he'll need every dime to pay those reps. You make a distinction between 50M and 80M. I went by the assumption that he would have full spies hence the 80M. 50M for a nation his size is still like forcing him to purchase a moon base. It's an incredible amount of cash on top of the tech reparations and an unnecessary one since he will not have the money to conduct spy operations while paying those reps. I do not support punitive reps for anyone and the forced decommission of wonders and spies take the phrase "punitive" to a new level. Given the amount of fun you folks had in those wars and the medals you can hand out, perhaps you should pay HIM instead. edit: [quote name='Yarbles' timestamp='1284154656' post='2449098'] Let's not be too hasty friends, I kind of like the idea of reps that don't benefit us whatsoever and help Methrage rebuild his nation after he declared war on us. [/quote] Didn't think i could be surprised by GOONS. Thank you for this pleasant surprise. Edited September 10, 2010 by Andre27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1284153122' post='2449074'] So you would give us the same or worse rate then what we can get on the open market? This is a terrible compromise. IF we were going to do anything like that you would have to be giving us 3/150 deals, otherwise it's just like white peace except we would be helping you rebuild. [/quote] I could do a combination of 3/100 and 4.5/150 deals. Edited September 10, 2010 by Methrage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktarthan Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284154916' post='2449105'] You are correct that i do not hold a high opinion of GOONS, but if it makes you feel better i do not think highly of Methrage and his crusade either. The analyses i presented is still sound though. At roughly 2k NS without full trades he'll need every dime to pay those reps. [/quote] Oh, I agree that he probably wouldn't have much money to spy at that size. It just isn't reasonable for you to assume that the reason we'd want him to decom his spies would be so that we could spy him while he was paying reps, simply because you think it's something we would do. [quote] You make a distinction between 50M and 80M. I went by the assumption that he would have full spies hence the 80M. 50M for a nation his size is still like forcing him to purchase a moon base. It's an incredible amount of cash on top of the tech reparations and an unnecessary one since he will not have the money to conduct spy operations while paying those reps. I do not support punitive reps for anyone and the forced decommission of wonders and spies take the phrase "punitive" to a new level. Given the amount of fun you folks had in those wars and the medals you can hand out, perhaps you should pay HIM instead. [/quote] To be clear, the reason I like the idea of spies being decommed isn't because I think he'd spy us. It's to prevent a situation such as him accepting 6 tech deals, declaring war with a flimsy excuse, and buying nukes without us being able to spy them away. That said, I think it's fairly unlikely that spies are part of the terms - I just like the idea of a Methrage with no spies. Also, if you don't support punitive reps, even for repeat rogues, I doubt that we'd be able to reconcile what we deem "acceptible" in terms of reps in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalstrs Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284155198' post='2449110'] I could do a combination of 3/100 and 4.5/150 deals. [/quote] There is no way that you will get terms that help you rebuild. If you are going to have tech payments as part of your terms you will make little to no profit on them. WE don't care if you get peace, if you want it you have to make it worth our while. Standard tech deals just won't cut it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre27 Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) never mind. Edited September 10, 2010 by Andre27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandolus Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='Andre27' timestamp='1284156753' post='2449133'] Consider this: selling tech at a rate of 3M/150 tech is simply not something a 2K nation can support. Unless you'll give him the chance to rebuild to roughly 3K infra before the start of reparations such rates can simply not be met. [/quote] 150 tech costs less than 3 million. He can support it just fine. Have any other stupid, flimsy observations that no one asked for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre27 Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 As you may have noticed, i already edited my post prior to your post. Minds have been made up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='dalstrs' timestamp='1284156369' post='2449129'] There is no way that you will get terms that help you rebuild. If you are going to have tech payments as part of your terms you will make little to no profit on them. WE don't care if you get peace, if you want it you have to make it worth our while. Standard tech deals just won't cut it. [/quote] I could do 6 deals at 3m/150 and 6 at 4.5m/150, as well as sign a NAP if you guys want one. If that isn't acceptable to you guys I'll look at whatever offer you guys come up with. Although with my offer that would be 1,800 tech sold with you guys only needing to use one outgoing slot per 150 tech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandolus Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 [quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1284157818' post='2449152'] I could do 6 deals at 3m/150 and 6 at 4.5m/150, as well as sign a NAP if you guys want one. If that isn't acceptable to you guys I'll look at whatever offer you guys come up with. Although with my offer that would be 1,800 tech sold with you guys only needing to use one outgoing slot per 150 tech. [/quote] Out of the 300 nations in GOONS we have 7 FACs. Don't count on many 4.5 million tech deals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted September 10, 2010 Report Share Posted September 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Mandolus' timestamp='1284158982' post='2449171'] Out of the 300 nations in GOONS we have 7 FACs. Don't count on many 4.5 million tech deals. [/quote] It would take at least a month to complete the 6 tech deals at 3m/150, that would give enough nations time to buy one before I complete those. Edited September 10, 2010 by Methrage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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