In Response to Recent Drama

[D34th]

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1281578131' post='2411921']
Then where are you?

[/quote]

I'm here, your point?

[Heft]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281577732' post='2411911']
That's impossible. It's impossible to not know you sent aid to someone and it to be considered an act when the person just told you it would be. Nice try at spinning it though.
[/quote]
It was pretty clear from your conversations with us that we didn't think we were actually going to be attacked. I mean we were telling our allies "if we get attacked, don't defend us. But don't worry that probably won't happen."

[Esau of Isaac]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1281575250' post='2411842']
Thanks for avoiding all that I said because I'm not interpreting your treaty, but reading your answer I can interpret that you see nothing wrong with abandon a friend in times of need[/quote]
Sometimes it happens. Pretending none of GATO's members find this action regrettable is unfair to the entirety of our membership.

[magicninja]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1281577916' post='2411916']
I said otherwise? I don't think so, what I said was that said violation was not big enough for cancel a treaty since NSO doesn't put GATO in any real risk, what I'm saying is that GATO used this violation as the poor excuse that you're looking for to cancel the treaty and in other situation with the same violation but with a well connected alliance I'm almost certain that GATO would have fixed the issue instead of cancel the treaty.
[/quote]

What you think about it does not matter in the least. Do you not get that? We get to decide what is and is not a poor reason to cancel. Worry about your own treaties.

[D34th]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281578706' post='2411957']
Sometimes it happens. Pretending none of GATO's members find this action regrettable is unfair to the entirety of our membership.
[/quote]

Note that I said "you" not GATO. But even if I had side "GATO" it wouldn't be unfair with your membership since your alliance is a democracy and your leaders were chosen by the membership.

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281578847' post='2411963']
What you think about it does not matter in the least. Do you not get that? We get to decide what is and is not a poor reason to cancel. Worry about your own treaties.
[/quote]

Very good argument to refute my post. "Your opinion doesn't matter! Take care of your own business!"

:applauds:

Edited August 12, 2010 by D34th

[Esau of Isaac]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1281578888' post='2411965']
Note that I said "you" not GATO. But even if I had side "GATO" it wouldn't be unfair with your membership since your alliance is a democracy and your leaders were chosen by the membership.
[/quote]
Which doesn't mean that everything leaders do is something the membership agrees with.

And it would be an unfair statement, since it accuses even the leaders of being fine with bailing on a friend. Did they do so? Arguably. Does that mean that they aren't sad that it had to happen? Apparently so, in your warped worldview.

[Heft]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281579044' post='2411973']
Which doesn't mean that everything leaders do is something the membership agrees with.

And it would be an unfair statement, since it accuses even the leaders of being fine with bailing on a friend. Did they do so? Arguably. Does that mean that they aren't sad that it had to happen? Apparently so, in your warped worldview.
[/quote]
People would be more sympathetic if it actually "had to happen." But since there was absolutely no reason that it had to happen, and not even any particularly compelling reason for it to happen, we see the current reaction.

[SpoiL]

[quote name='magicninja' timestamp='1281576434' post='2411870']
I'm just saying we get to decide how and when one of our treaties is violated not you and I think handing the cancellation in now was appalling but the cancellation itself was brilliant looking at it now anyway.
[/quote]

And everyone else gets to decide when your decision is bull. It's the circle, doo doo doo doo the circle of life.

[D34th]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281579044' post='2411973']
Which doesn't mean that everything leaders do is something the membership agrees with.
[/quote]

That's true.

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281579044' post='2411973']
And it would be an unfair statement, since it accuses even the leaders of being fine with bailing on a friend. Did they do so? Arguably. Does that mean that they aren't sad that it had to happen? Apparently so, in your warped worldview.
[/quote]

Doesn't matter for the abandoned ally or public opinion if GATO's leaders are sad or no, what matter is the decision they took. Isn't the intention or how you feel about it who validates the act, but the result.

Edited August 12, 2010 by D34th

[Lazarus Long]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281577732' post='2411911']
Our allies in Athens and ODN were hit first. That's basically the only thing you guys have ever done is !@#$%* about how we never help you.




That's impossible. It's impossible to not know you sent aid to someone and it to be considered an act when the person just told you it would be. Nice try at spinning it though.
[/quote]


I don't spin stuff. Want a war?

[Esau of Isaac]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281579207' post='2411979']
People would be more sympathetic if it actually "had to happen." But since there was absolutely no reason that it had to happen, and not even any particularly compelling reason for it to happen, we see the current reaction.
[/quote]
Okay. I can see where you're coming from.

Don't you think, though, that the majority of the government members don't believe that they made a mistake in their actions, or at the very least in the method and timing by which they went about it?

[quote]Doesn't matter for the abandoned ally or public opinion if GATO's leaders are sad or no, what matter is the decision they took. Isn't the intention or how you feel about it who validates the act, but the result. [/quote]
Intention is the difference between murder and manslaughter. It means [i]everything[/i].

Edited August 12, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[Heft]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281579784' post='2411999']
Okay. Are you saying, then, that the majority of the government members don't believe that they made a mistake in their actions, or at the very least in the method and timing by which they went about it?
[/quote]
Well, they did agree to cancel the treaty. Yes we keep hearing how everyone is real sad about and upset and whatnot, but so far all of the actions all seem to support the cancellation.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281579044' post='2411973']
Which doesn't mean that everything leaders do is something the membership agrees with.

And it would be an unfair statement, since it accuses even the leaders of being fine with bailing on a friend. Did they do so? Arguably. Does that mean that they aren't sad that it had to happen? Apparently so, in your warped worldview.
[/quote]
Well, actually, they kind of refused to apologize for it, or to try and take it back. So as much as NSO is collectively responsible for that 6 million (and a lot of your government does love saying that), GATO is just as responsible for this business.

Sorry, Esau, but this is what it is. If you guys dont like what your government did, we'll still be here after this is over, but don't expect us to take the folks that randomly decided to leave us hanging (for nonsensical reasons) seriously.

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281579784' post='2411999']
Okay. I can see where you're coming from.

Don't you think, though, that the majority of the government members don't believe that they made a mistake in their actions, or at the very least in the method and timing by which they went about it?


Intention is the difference between murder and manslaughter. It means [i]everything[/i].
[/quote]
An apology or attempt to make amends would go a long way towards indicating what their intention was, or was not.

But given that they've [i]abstained[/i], or even outright refused to go to such lengths, we find it really difficult to believe that theyre remorseful, or did this unintentionally.

I mean, it looks like Omni got the initial vote for approval going because he lied and manipulated the Congress directly in order to net this. And yet he hasn't been fired yet for such an abuse of his position and the trust his alliance mates have in him?

It just seems as if your government was happy for the excuse.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Chron

[D34th]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281579784' post='2411999']

Intention is the difference between murder and manslaughter. It means [i]everything[/i].
[/quote]

There is no difference for who dies.

[Esau of Isaac]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281579990' post='2412007']
Well, they did agree to cancel the treaty. Yes we keep hearing how everyone is real sad about and upset and whatnot, but so far all of the actions all seem to support the cancellation.
[/quote]
I can vouch that several members believe this to have been a horrible mistake, at the absolute least in timing.

[quote]Well, actually, they kind of refused to apologize for it, or to try and take it back. So as much as NSO is collectively responsible for that 6 million (and a lot of your government does love saying that), GATO is just as responsible for this business.[/quote]
Because there's no going back. I wouldn't expect a respectable alliance leader to just buddy up after someone just cut ties in one swift motion, regardless of how much of a mistake either side realizes it was. It wouldn't change any of the resentment, hell, it would probably make it worse.

[quote]Sorry, Esau, but this is what it is. If you guys dont like what your government did, we'll still be here after this is over, but don't expect us to take the folks that randomly decided to leave us hanging (for nonsensical reasons) seriously.[/quote]
I don't expect any NSO members to do anything. What they do and believe is certainly fine with me, whatever it is. I'm merely trying to say that much of our people are disappointed in recent events.

[quote]An apology or attempt to make amends would go a long way towards indicating what their intention was, or was not.

But given that they've abstained, or even outright refused to go to such lengths, we find it really difficult to believe that their remorseful, or did this unintentionally.[/quote]
What do you mean?

[quote]I mean, it looks like Omni got the initial vote for approval going because he lied and manipulated the Congress directly in order to net this. And yet he hasn't been fired yet for such an abuse of his position and the trust his alliance mates have in him? [/quote]
How does it look like this?

[quote]There is no difference for who dies. [/quote]
Which can never fix anything. The intent of the one who did so is of utmost importance. What they did is important, but what they were trying to do is even moreso. I can eventually forgive someone who accidentally hit someone I loved with a car, killing them, had they not meant to. The same would almost certainly not be true if they meant to end their lives.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281579044' post='2411973']
Which doesn't mean that everything leaders do is something the membership agrees with.

And it would be an unfair statement, since it accuses even the leaders of being fine with bailing on a friend. Did they do so? Arguably. Does that mean that they aren't sad that it had to happen? Apparently so, in your warped worldview.
[/quote]

Oh gee, they're sad about their shameful action. That makes it all better.

[Esau of Isaac]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' timestamp='1281581173' post='2412048']
Oh gee, they're sad about their shameful action. That makes it all better.
[/quote]
I'm glad you see it my way.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281581003' post='2412042']
I can vouch that several members believe this to have been a horrible mistake, at the absolute least in timing.
[/quote] None of whom were in a position to do anything about it, including apparently magicninja, who just got tired of trying after a certain point.

[quote]Because there's no going back. I wouldn't expect a respectable alliance leader to just buddy up after someone just cut ties in one swift motion, regardless of how much of a mistake either side realizes it was. It wouldn't change any of the resentment, hell, it would probably make it worse.
[/quote]We were actually prepared to up until that vote failed. This was communicated between our two governments.

We seriously were. We even let you lie about the actual circumstances so your government could save some face and honor. But thats clearly done now.

[quote]I don't expect any NSO members to do anything. What they do and believe is certainly fine with me, whatever it is. I'm merely trying to say that much of our people are disappointed in recent events.
[/quote]
And all of ours are. On the other hand, there are some among those that feel vindicated in saying that you were going to be terrible allies from the outset.
[quote]
What do you mean?[/quote]
Ask your government.

You mean you dont know?

[quote]How does it look like this?[/quote]You really don't know, Esau?


[quote]Which can never fix anything. The intent of the one who did so is of utmost importance. What they did is important, but what they were trying to do is even moreso. I can eventually forgive someone who accidentally hit someone I loved with a car, killing them, had they not meant to. The same would almost certainly not be true if they meant to end their lives.
[/quote]Whether you know about it or not, the fact of the matter is that your government did it deliberately. And has stood by that decision.

[Lazarus Long]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281581003' post='2412042']
I can vouch that several members believe this to have been a horrible mistake, at the absolute least in timing.


Because there's no going back. I wouldn't expect a respectable alliance leader to just buddy up after someone just cut ties in one swift motion, regardless of how much of a mistake either side realizes it was. It wouldn't change any of the resentment, hell, it would probably make it worse.


I don't expect any NSO members to do anything. What they do and believe is certainly fine with me, whatever it is. I'm merely trying to say that much of our people are disappointed in recent events.


What do you mean?


How does it look like this?


Which can never fix anything. The intent of the one who did so is of utmost importance. What they did is important, but what they were trying to do is even moreso. I can eventually forgive someone who accidentally hit someone I loved with a car, killing them, had they not meant to. The same would almost certainly not be true if they meant to end their lives.
[/quote]

The best of a bad lot, begone GATO

[Esau of Isaac]

[quote]None of whom were in a position to do anything about it, including apparently magicninja, who just got tired of trying after a certain point.[/quote]
I didn't say they were.

[quote]And all of ours are. On the other hand, there are some among those that feel vindicated in saying that you were going to be terrible allies from the outset.[/quote]
I bet you're hearing a lot of "I told you so"s, then. >__>

[quote]Ask your government.

You mean you dont know?


You really don't know, Esau?[/quote]
No. I've heard little more than the surface bits, as I've been gone for a majority of the past couple days.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Esau of Isaac

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1281577732' post='2411911']
Our allies in Athens and ODN were hit first.
[/quote]
Uh, no they weren't.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79201
http://www.farkistan.org/index.php?topic=27466
http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79308

Those all happened before ODN and Athens were hit.

[D34th]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281581003' post='2412042']
Which can never fix anything. The intent of the one who did so is of utmost importance. What they did is important, but what they were trying to do is even moreso. I can eventually forgive someone who accidentally hit someone I loved with a car, killing them, had they not meant to. The same would almost certainly not be true if they meant to end their lives.
[/quote]

You are totally missing the point or being egocentric. The result of your actions will be the same for who suffer the consequences no matter if you fell sad or happy about it. And with your analogy are you trying to say that GATO accidentally canceled on NSO? Because if you are trying to say that is just a lie.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281581500' post='2412061']
I didn't say they were.


I bet you're hearing a lot of "I told you so"s, then. >__>


No. I've heard little more than the surface bits, as I've been gone for a majority of the past couple days.
[/quote]
It goes like this:

Apparently RV comes to Omni Sunday afternoon or something as soon as he catches wind of RoK's impending declaration (Not from GATO), and asks Omni if he received word of it.

Omni admits he did know beforehand, but they quickly move past that point. So they discuss the events for a little while, and eventually Omni mentions the possibility of GATO chaining in and maybe causing the SuperGrievances split as a result, both agree that it isn't feasible, and RV reiterates that since it wouldnt serve any purpose, then GATO shouldn't get involved. Even though he still felt at that point that it wasn't seriously going to happen.

Cue several hours later, where Omni goes to the Senators and gives little snippets of the conversation colored to imply that Heft provoked Hoo in the hopes of chaining in GATO and thus causing a SF/CnG war. Omni then uses this as an excuse to motion for a voiding of our treaty.

Your Senators get riled up, Omni continues to stoke the flames with claims of betrayal and generally playing the martyr, and its a unanimous vote to lead up to this mess.

Skip ahead a few days, and magicninja sees the full context of the logs, as well as a few other folks, and it comes to light that Omni lied. So magicninja convinces a bunch of the senators to change their votes. 3 of whom decide to go with abstaining rather than no, and 2 to rejecting the nullification. 2, of course, were still firmly behind the cancellation.

So given the fact that they were openly lied to by Omni given the circumstances, the plurality of your government was still in favor of nullifying our treaty with you, even if they were uninterested in actually casting a supporting vote given the blatantly suspicious circumstances.

Ive heard theres been a motion for a vote of no confidence? I dont think itll go through, but itd be nice if it did. Of course, magicninja has decided to wash his hands of us as well, considering he realized that we weren't going to be so understanding as to accept an empty apology for this slap to the face.

As an alliance, we really thought highly of you guys. Thanks for showing us how much that faith was worth.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Chron

[Esau of Isaac]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1281581826' post='2412068']
You are totally missing the point or being egocentric. The result of your actions will be the same for who suffer the consequences no matter if you fell sad or happy about it. And with your analogy are you trying to say that GATO accidentally canceled on NSO? Because if you are trying to say that is just a lie.
[/quote]
No. I'm saying that intentions and feelings behind actions are important. It's a tangential discussion, the analogy wasn't meant to be representative of the situation.

[quote]It goes like this:

Apparently RV comes to Omni Sunday afternoon or something as soon as he catches wind of RoK's impending declaration (Not from GATO), and asks Omni if he received word of it.

Omni admits he did know beforehand, but they quickly move past that point. So they discuss the events for a little while, and eventually Omni mentions the possibility of GATO chaining in and maybe causing the SuperGrievances split as a result, both agree that it isn't feasible, and RV reiterates that since it wouldnt serve any purpose, then GATO shouldn't get involved. Even though he still felt at that point that it wasn't seriously going to happen.

Cue several hours later, where Omni goes to the Senators and gives little snippets of the conversation colored to imply that Heft provoked Hoo in the hopes of chaining in GATO and thus causing a SF/CnG war. Omni then uses this as an excuse to motion for a voiding of our treaty.

Your Senators get riled up, Omni continues to stoke the flames with claims of betrayal and generally playing the martyr, and its a unanimous vote to lead up to this mess.

Skip ahead a few days, and magicninja sees the full context of the logs, as well as a few other folks, and it comes to light that Omni lied. So magicninja convinces a bunch of the senators to change their votes. 3 of whom decide to go with abstaining rather than no, and 2 to rejecting the nullification. 2, of course, were still firmly behind the cancellation.

So given the fact that they were openly lied to by Omni given the circumstances, the plurality of your government was still in favor of nullifying our treaty with you, even if they were uninterested in actually casting a supporting vote given the blatantly suspicious circumstances.

Ive heard theres been a motion to for a vote of no confidence? I dont think itll go through, but itd be nice if it did. Of course, magicninja has decided to wash his hands of us as well, considering he realized that we weren't going to be so understanding as to accept an empty apology for this slap to the face.

As an alliance, we really thought highly of you guys. Thanks for showing us how much that faith was worth.[/quote]
I'll read around more, but I do recognize bits and pieces of what you're talking about.

I'm sorry for the misplaced faith, either way.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Esau of Isaac' timestamp='1281582551' post='2412087']
No. I'm saying that intentions and feelings behind actions are important. It's a tangential discussion, the analogy wasn't meant to be representative of the situation.


I'll read around more, but I do recognize bits and pieces of what you're talking about.

I'm sorry for the misplaced faith, either way.
[/quote]
Coming from you, I appreciate the feelings.

Really wish it hadn't come to this in the first place. Meh.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Chron