The idea of Bandwagnors?

[The Reccesion]

What are bandwaggoners?

Bandwagons are:
~When someone adopts a popular point of view for the primary purpose of recognition and/or acceptance by others.
~To follow the group as it has the majority or a vast number of followers.
~When one only likes or agrees with someone/something due to success. Even if said individual liked/agreed with something before they were successful, they "hopped on the bandwagon."


Those are some meanings of the term "bandwagon". So you hear a lot about bandwaggoners, my question is [b]What makes a bandwagon during a war?[/b]

If you ask me, bandwaggoning only occurs when someone attacks an alliance they don't like through no treaty's whatsoever. They only attack because they are already on the ground being kicked and they jump in because they couldn't do it themselves. But I think it is different when you have an established friendship and everyone knows it.

So now the question is if alliance A has an MDP/ODP with alliance B. Can A and B team up and attack alliance C with no offensive clause in their treaty? I have heard many alliances say they don't want to bandwagon so they don't support their allies until they get attacked. If alliances could do that, it could change the game in a pretty big way. I mean they could just sign a MDoAP right off the bat, but sometimes people have to do things that they shouldn't and that could be a instance of supporting an ally without a proper treaty.

So here is my second question, [b]Can we the people of CN change the way we look at bandwaggoners and change the meaning in our own way?[/b]

[Adrian LaCroix]

People here have far too broad a definition of bandwagoning. If you attack an alliance that is currently engaged in a war on the losing side for reasons unrelated to the conflict you are bandwagoning. It's really difficult to bandwagon by honoring treaties, but it can be done.

[The Reccesion]

I agree, but do you think that is it bandwagoning if you have a MDP/ODP and you help DoW on someone?

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='The Reccesion' date='11 July 2010 - 05:52 PM' timestamp='1278885107' post='2367270']
I agree, but do you think that is it bandwagoning if you have a MDP/ODP and you help DoW on someone?
[/quote]
MDP is an obvious no.

ODP is somewhat more hairy, and really depends on the previous reputation of the alliance. It isn't [i]technically[/i] bandwagoning, but it can certainly be viewed as such.

[The Reccesion]

So if you have a MDP, you can DoW on an alliance that your allies will DoW before they get attacked?

This is what this thread is about, maybe changing the way the CN community views bangwagoners as.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='The Reccesion' date='11 July 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1278885447' post='2367278']
So if you have a MDP, you can DoW on an alliance that your allies will DoW before they get attacked?

This is what this thread is about, maybe changing the way the CN community views bangwagoners as.
[/quote]
It's a Mutual Defense Pact, not a Mutual Defense and Aggression Pact. Most allies sign an MDoAP, which has the aggression as optional.

If you aggressively declare on an alliance on the losing side and you aren't needed, yeah, you are generally viewed as a bandwagoner.

[The Reccesion]

That isn't what I'm asking though.

My question is directly pointing at a MDP and an ODP.

[Vol Navy]

MDP/ODP is purely defensive.

If you want to aggressively declare with your treaty parter, upgrade your treaty before you declare.

Otherwise there is no point in specifying what type of treaty you have.

[Wad of Lint]

You rely far too much on text to dictate what you can and cannot do.

[xoindotnler]

[quote]What makes a bandwagon during a war?[/quote]
Joining in when on side already has the advantage, so you just stand there hoping to see the enemy and get reps.
[quote]Can we the people of CN change the way we look at bandwaggoners and change the meaning in our own way?[/quote]

Sure we can, but do we want to?

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='11 July 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1278888402' post='2367323']
You rely far too much on text to dictate what you can and cannot do.
[/quote]
When you are bound by text, you honor that text.

[Ogaden]

A "bandwagon" is when you are losing a war already and someone declares war on your coalition, which is like totally unfair, man.

[Adrian LaCroix]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='11 July 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1278886040' post='2367292']
It's a Mutual Defense Pact, not a Mutual Defense and Aggression Pact. Most allies sign an MDoAP, which has the aggression as optional.

If you aggressively declare on an alliance on the losing side and you aren't needed, yeah, you are generally viewed as a bandwagoner.
[/quote]

Define "needed."

[Believland]

[quote name='xoindotnler' date='11 July 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1278888824' post='2367328']
Joining in when on side already has the advantage, so you just stand there hoping to see the enemy and get reps.
[/quote]

Basically this. It doesn't matter if you have a MDoAP or a MDP. It's all about overkill for trying to get reps

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Adrian LaCroix' date='11 July 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1278889814' post='2367352']
Define "needed."
[/quote]
Meh, depends on who is fighting. If it's anything more then 6 to 1, you aren't needed. (Simply because of how CN works)

[The Reccesion]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='11 July 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1278888402' post='2367323']
You rely far too much on text to dictate what you can and cannot do.
[/quote]
This is not about me, or my alliance. Just a question.

Also, how you doin man? Long time no talk aye?

[quote name='xoindotnler' date='11 July 2010 - 06:54 PM' timestamp='1278888824' post='2367328']
Joining in when on side already has the advantage, so you just stand there hoping to see the enemy and get reps.


Sure we can, but do we want to?
[/quote]
The question has nothing to do with reps, just what is considered alright when debatable of bandwagon or not.

[quote name='Believland' date='11 July 2010 - 07:16 PM' timestamp='1278890192' post='2367360']
Basically this. It doesn't matter if you have a MDoAP or a MDP. It's all about overkill for trying to get reps
[/quote]
Reps aside.

Thanks for answering my question.

[xoindotnler]

[quote name='The Reccesion' date='12 July 2010 - 01:31 AM' timestamp='1278891098' post='2367375']
The question has nothing to do with reps, just what is considered alright when debatable of bandwagon or not.
[/quote]
[img]http://i31.tinypic.com/4kivyo.jpg[/img]

That's why it wasn't about reps duh.

[Prodigal Moon]

I think OOC most of us want the game to be competitive. So bringing in additional resources (activating more treaties) when you've got a decisive advantage just isn't "sporting" really, even if it is more rational.

[Believland]

[quote name='The Reccesion' date='11 July 2010 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1278891098' post='2367375']
The question has nothing to do with reps, just what is considered alright when debatable of bandwagon or not.
[/quote]
No. Reps and bandwagoning hold hand each other's hand singing love songs.

[The Reccesion]

[quote name='Believland' date='11 July 2010 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1278892665' post='2367407']
No. Reps and bandwagoning hold hand each other's hand singing love songs.
[/quote]
Yeah I know what you mean.

But when I said debatable I meant that part of are aggressively attacking an alliance with someone you have a MDO/ODP with ok? But you and others have answered it already.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Believland' date='11 July 2010 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1278892665' post='2367407']
No. Reps and bandwagoning hold hand each other's hand singing love songs.
[/quote]

You can bandwagon for other reasons as well (improved ranking, political points, etc.). Reps are certainly not the only thing of value you can gain from war.

[Believland]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='11 July 2010 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1278893819' post='2367421']
You can bandwagon for other reasons as well (improved ranking, political points, etc.). Reps are certainly not the only thing of value you can gain from war.
[/quote]
You get political points and improved views for bandwagoning now? heh.

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='Gamemaster1' date='11 July 2010 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1278889130' post='2367335']
When you are bound by text, you honor that text.
[/quote]

You may honor text, but you are never bound solely to text. You may have signed a document agreeing to defend a treaty partner, but I doubt you have ever signed something vowing not to defend those who you are not tied to.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='Believland' date='11 July 2010 - 05:37 PM' timestamp='1278895051' post='2367457']
You get political points and improved views for bandwagoning now? heh.
[/quote]

From the people you sided with yes.

[Gamemaster1]

[quote name='Wad of Lint' date='11 July 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1278902046' post='2367631']
You may honor text, but you are never bound solely to text. You may have signed a document agreeing to defend a treaty partner, but I doubt you have ever signed something vowing not to defend those who you are not tied to.
[/quote]
I agree completely. I must have misunderstood you.