Inspirational War for all little countries.

[Captain Novolin]

[quote name='Islamic Republic' date='11 June 2010 - 08:30 PM' timestamp='1276309811' post='2334282']
Im just saying they arent special, the starvation was in-fact caused by the blockade, and after recent investigations, much less Jews where found to be killed in concentration camps then stated, apparently anyone who died was considered "Jew" in there reports. They arent the all mighty victims, there third best, if not 4th or 5th.
[/quote]
I'm going to suggest a bit of reading:

Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final solution in Poland (Christopher Browning, 1992)

Come back after you have read that book. (your local library should have a copy)

Heck, even just Chapter 7. Read that and then tell me, with a straight face, that Jews were not targeted victims of the Nazis.

[Baskan]

OOC: Who else thinks this kid is like 10? Anyone anyone?

[Islamic Republic]

[quote name='Captain Novolin' date='11 June 2010 - 08:37 PM' timestamp='1276310208' post='2334298']
I'm going to suggest a bit of reading:

Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final solution in Poland (Christopher Browning, 1992)

Come back after you have read that book. (your local library should have a copy)

Heck, even just Chapter 7. Read that and then tell me, with a straight face, that Jews were not targeted victims of the Nazis.
[/quote]

They where, but so where gypsies, blacks, Poles, and Russians, not just Jews.

[Islamic Republic]

[quote name='Captain Novolin' date='11 June 2010 - 08:37 PM' timestamp='1276310208' post='2334298']
I'm going to suggest a bit of reading:

Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final solution in Poland (Christopher Browning, 1992)

Come back after you have read that book. (your local library should have a copy)

Heck, even just Chapter 7. Read that and then tell me, with a straight face, that Jews were not targeted victims of the Nazis.
[/quote]

History is inherently flawed, and the winners write the history books so i hope you read sources from 5-6 countries and not just 1.

[Baskan]

[quote name='Islamic Republic' date='11 June 2010 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1276310519' post='2334307']
History is inherently flawed, [b]and the winners write the history books[/b] so i hope you read sources from 5-6 countries and not just 1.
[/quote]
OOC: Modern Warfare 2 isn't a good history source

[roymustang]

[quote name='Likish' date='11 June 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1276310388' post='2334303']
OOC: Who else thinks this kid is like 10? Anyone anyone?
[/quote]
Agreed.

[quote]History is inherently flawed, and the winners write the history books so i hope you read sources from 5-6 countries and not just 1.[/quote]
That's less true today than it was in the past. Much less so.

[Captain Novolin]

[quote name='Islamic Republic' date='11 June 2010 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1276310519' post='2334307']
History is inherently flawed, and the winners write the history books so i hope you read sources from 5-6 countries and not just 1.
[/quote]
Ordinary men includes documents from Germany, Poland and diaries and interviews with the people that were there (!). On top of this, for general information it covers sources form America, Russia and pretty much anyone else who had any working knowledge of the Final Solution. It's one of the Go-to books on the subject for a reason.

[Heinlander]

You know, when I changed my signature, I did so believing that I had captured the most insane thing IR could have said.

I see now that this decision was tragically premature.

[Islamic Republic]

[quote name='Captain Novolin' date='11 June 2010 - 08:44 PM' timestamp='1276310663' post='2334315']
Ordinary men includes documents from Germany, Poland and diaries and interviews with the people that were there (!). On top of this, for general information it covers sources form America, Russia and pretty much anyone else who had any working knowledge of the Final Solution. It's one of the Go-to books on the subject for a reason.
[/quote]

But who headed the story? Which country, if you look at history, everyone says something else. That's why you need to study the history of all countries involved, by there own historians/governments, then try and figure out an opinion for yourself, America doesn't want to admit they killed more people then Hitler killed Jews by purposely starving Germany held Europe. History is like the news, its all propaganda you cant get credible information from just 1 side.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Islamic Republic

[Baskan]

[quote name='Islamic Republic' date='11 June 2010 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1276311112' post='2334322']
But who headed the story? Which country, if you look at history, everyone says something else. That's why you need to study the history of all countries involved, by there own historians/governments, then try and figure out an opinion for yourself, America doesn't want to admit they killed more people then Hitler killed Jews by purposely starving Germany held Europe.
[/quote]
I laugh at your Idiocy. That is all I wanted to say.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Islamic Republic' date='11 June 2010 - 10:52 PM' timestamp='1276311112' post='2334322']
But who headed the story? Which country, if you look at history, everyone says something else. That's why you need to study the history of all countries involved, by there own historians/governments, then try and figure out an opinion for yourself, America doesn't want to admit they killed more people then Hitler killed Jews by purposely starving Germany held Europe. History is like the news, its all propaganda you cant get credible information from just 1 side.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]OOC: I don't think Germany was too reliant on outside trade during that war. First, the Nazis wanted a self-sustaining economy, I believe (I'll have to look that up to be sure), but also not too many people wanted to trade with Germany. Maybe some South American countries, perhaps, but remember, half the world was under British rule. I know Germany wasn't getting anything from them. And Germany did not start starving until after D-Day when the war went south. Even then the famine was not as great as you're trying to make it out to be. It was nowhere near as tragic or severe as the Holocaust.[/color]

[Islamic Republic]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='11 June 2010 - 08:57 PM' timestamp='1276311455' post='2334328']
[color="#0000FF"]OOC: I don't think Germany was too reliant on outside trade during that war. First, the Nazis wanted a self-sustaining economy, I believe (I'll have to look that up to be sure), but also not too many people wanted to trade with Germany. Maybe some South American countries, perhaps, but remember, half the world was under British rule. I know Germany wasn't getting anything from them. And Germany did not start starving until after D-Day when the war went south. Even then the famine was not as great as you're trying to make it out to be. It was nowhere near as tragic or severe as the Holocaust.[/color]
[/quote]

What you mean the fact that 5 million Germans starved to death? That's just Germans.

[Dr Beefstupid]

Rebel Virginia, you are the man tonight.

I mean that non-sarcastically.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Dr Beefstupid

[lamuella]

Germany was actually able to keep itself rolling as a self-sustaining society for quite a while. Certainly, by the end of the war there were food shortages, but there were food shortages because huge bits of Germany had been conquered, not because Germany was dependent on outside trade for food.

The holocaust was an instance of systematic and carefully recorded killing. The people being killed in the concentration camps would have been killed even if Germany had discovered that the trees in the black forest were all made of roast beef. Starvation was used as an intentional weapon to keep them weak, not an accidental consequence.

[ControlVolume]

[b]June 11, 2010: Today in history[/b]
Rebel Virginia and GOONS finally team up, brought together by the mighty power of Holocaust denial.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Islamic Republic' date='11 June 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1276311596' post='2334332']
What you mean the fact that 5 million Germans starved to death? That's just Germans.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]OOC: Compared to six million Jews and five million others? And intentionally. Forgive me if I look at intentional and deliberate killings as being more despicable than accidental and unintended deaths. I am sure their deaths were not foreseen, it was war after all and civilian deaths are to be expected, but say what you will, the goal of the United States was not to kill Germans. It was Hilter's goal to kill Jew's however.

As for "just Germans," the only other major famine in the war was that in Russia. I assure you that the United States did not cause that one.[/color]

Edited June 12, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Choson]

[quote name='Dr Beefstupid' date='11 June 2010 - 11:01 PM' timestamp='1276311687' post='2334334']
Rebel Virginia, you are the man tonight.

I mean that non-sarcastically.
[/quote]

Totally seconding this.

[lamuella]

[quote name='Islamic Republic' date='11 June 2010 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1276311596' post='2334332']
What you mean the fact that 5 million Germans starved to death? That's just Germans.
[/quote]

The total number of Germans who died as a consequence of the second world war for all causes is estimated as 6,593,000 to 8,863,000, depending on how you are defining "german". Considering that 5.5 million of these were military deaths, I cannot see how you can mathematically reach a total of 5 million deaths by starvation.

[Ashok]

My sig tells all

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Lamuella' date='11 June 2010 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1276312070' post='2334342']
The total number of Germans who died as a consequence of the second world war for all causes is estimated as 6,593,000 to 8,863,000, depending on how you are defining "german". Considering that 5.5 million of these were military deaths, I cannot see how you can mathematically reach a total of 5 million deaths by starvation.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]OOC: Add in one or two million more civilian deaths from bombings, etc. and this great famine really isn't looking all that impressive anymore.[/color]

[Islamic Republic]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='11 June 2010 - 09:04 PM' timestamp='1276311837' post='2334337']
[color="#0000FF"]OOC: Compared to six million Jews and five million others? And intentionally. Forgive me if I look at intentional and deliberate killings as being more despicable than accidental and unintended deaths. I am sure their deaths were not foreseen, it was war after all and civilian deaths are to be expected, but say what you will, the goal of the United States was not to kill Germans. It was Hilter's goal to kill Jew's however.

As for "just Germans," the only other major famine in the war was that in Russia. I assure you that the United States did not cause that one.[/color]
[/quote]

Accidentally? that's the sole reason why they blockaded Germany, they could of let in food, the reason why there was food shortages was because its hard to grow food in war. Saying Hitler starved Jews, when Germany itself was starving holds no merit cause of the situation. There where atrocities committed on all sides, even Germans where being executed by allied forces, not just the Russians. To say Jews where the only people systematically exterminated is flawed, and biased. There where war crimes committed by all sides. Polish civilians even raided German towns killing civilians in revenge killings. Russian and Ukraine murdered 100s of thousands of polish civilians "liberating" them. Its war, all sides committed crimes against humanity, and small bands of polish did the same to them.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Islamic Republic

[Menthol Box]

[quote name='Lamuella' date='11 June 2010 - 11:08 PM' timestamp='1276312070' post='2334342']
The total number of Germans who died as a consequence of the second world war for all causes is estimated as 6,593,000 to 8,863,000, depending on how you are defining "german". Considering that 5.5 million of these were military deaths, I cannot see how you can mathematically reach a total of 5 million deaths by starvation.
[/quote]

I don't think he lets "Math" or "Facts" enter into his arguments.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Islamic Republic' date='11 June 2010 - 11:10 PM' timestamp='1276312235' post='2334347']
Accidentally? that's the sole reason why they blockaded Germany, they could of let in food, the reason why there was food shortages was because its hard to grow food in war. Saying Hitler starved Jews, when Germany itself was starving holds no merit cause of the situation. There where atrocities committed on all sides, even Germans where being executed by allied forces, not just the Russians. To say Jews where the only people systematically exterminated is flawed, and biased. There where war crimes committed by all sides.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]OOC: Germany was not reliant on outside sources for food, so the blockade did not do that much harm to their food supply. As for it's purpose being to kill Germans. No, it was to get the Germans to surrender. If Germans died as a result, that's war for you. You're ignoring the fact that the Allied objective was not the extermination of the German people. The objective was the surrender of Germany. As for Hitler, his objective was the complete extermination of the Jews. See the difference?[/color]

[quote name='Islamic Republic' date='11 June 2010 - 11:10 PM' timestamp='1276312235' post='2334347']
Russian and Ukraine murdered 100s of thousands of polish civilians "liberating" them. Its war, all sides committed crimes against humanity, and small bands of polish did the same to them.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]OOC: I don't want to have to defend Papa Joe, but he was not a genocidal maniac. Sure he killed a lot of people, but they were because they were intellectuals and community leaders. He was quite paranoid, but he was not into genocide. Most of his deaths were the result of famine, which was the result of his incompetent management of his country. Not that he was right, but Hitler was in a completely different league.

As for Polish partisans, tough break for the Germans. I suppose they should have thought about Polish resistance before they invaded the country. Is it tragic that civilians died? Absolutely. But still, it comes nowhere close to genocide.[/color]

Edited June 12, 2010 by Rebel Virginia

[Ashok]

[quote name='Menthol Box' date='11 June 2010 - 10:11 PM' timestamp='1276312295' post='2334350']
I don't think he lets "Math" or "Facts" enter into his arguments.
[/quote]

Or logic

[Islamic Republic]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' date='11 June 2010 - 09:13 PM' timestamp='1276312411' post='2334353']
[color="#0000FF"]OOC: Germany was not reliant on outside sources for food, so the blockade did not do that much harm to their food supply. As for it's purpose being to kill Germans. No, it was to get the Germans to surrender. If Germans died as a result, that's war for you. You're ignoring the fact that the Allied objective was not the extermination of the German people. The objective was the surrender of Germany. As for Hitler, his objective was the complete extermination of the Jews. See the difference?[/color]
[/quote]

If there goal was to truly exterminate all of the Jews, they could of easily completed it before D-day liberated camps.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Islamic Republic