Sanctions as a Weapon

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='magicmountain' date='21 April 2010 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1271901623' post='2270024']
Again, you did not answer my question. I'm not asking what mistakes you think we've made.

You said "If GOONS admit their mistake and realize they were wrong, I would be willing to put an end to this" To which mistake are you referring in that statement? What is the thing we should admit?
[/quote]
Your attacks and requested sanction on my nation (the combination of the two I think was a mistake).

Edited April 22, 2010 by Methrage

[Haflinger]

Wait. Is the GOONS rationale for the sanction now "Responding to Methrage is more fun"?

[magicmountain]

[quote name='Methrage' date='21 April 2010 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1271901823' post='2270031']
Your attacks and requested sanction on my nation.
[/quote]

Ah yes, thank you. Well, I don't have any sort of authority to say anything with weight but my guess is that's not going to happen.

How did this all start again exactly? I've heard bits and pieces, but I'm curious to hear your perspective on the matter. It's hard to keep track of things with all the back and forth about morality.

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 April 2010 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1271901908' post='2270033']
Wait. Is the GOONS rationale for the sanction now "Responding to Methrage is more fun"?
[/quote]
Nope! I only speak for myself. "Responding to Methrage is more fun" is my rationale for having this conversation.

Edited April 22, 2010 by magicmountain

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 April 2010 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1271901908' post='2270033']
Wait. Is the GOONS rationale for the sanction now "Responding to Methrage is more fun"?
[/quote]
How did you come to that conclusion?

That is the rationale for us to continue responding to his ravings.

[Lord Brendan]

Is the rationale for the sanction that Methrage is a rogue and rogues should be sanctioned, or that sanctions are weapons to be used whenever they are beneficial?

Edited April 22, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[Jakome]

[center]This Thread Needs Haikus
Its Gone Completely Off Base
Two Words: Burrito[/center]

Edited April 22, 2010 by Jakome

[magicmountain]

[center]I see what you did
there; 'burrito' is one word,
but 'little donkey'...

..that's two! By the way,
the haikus started up when
Methrage began to

repeat himself. We
kind of got bored and ran out
of new things to say.[/center]

Edited April 22, 2010 by magicmountain

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='21 April 2010 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1271902876' post='2270049']
Is the rationale for the sanction that Methrage is a rogue and rogues should be sanctioned, or that sanctions are weapons to be used whenever they are beneficial?
[/quote]
I think this is a good question and am also curious as to what the answer is.

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='magicmountain' date='21 April 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1271901286' post='2270016']
There were numerous IRC conversations. I don't know the early situation very well but the gist of it from my experience is neither side could agree on terms so we went to war with him and lobbied to have him sanctioned. His response to that was to derail a GOONS alliance announcement thread until it was locked, then he created this thread, supposedly to complain about being sanctioned for being a nuke rogue, but we see it's really just a platform to continue to broadcast his message. He continually avoids any real discussion and broadcasts his message, over and over.

So again I ask you, what would you have us do? I guess we could ignore him and let people believe what they will but responding is so much more fun.
[/quote]
I don't know, Whatever the GOONS or Methrage does is up to them.

But my suggestion would be to have a reasonable level headed neutral mediator and attempt to hold peace talks again. The bickering is pretty pointless. Methrage and a few GOONS members had a disagreement in his DoW thread which is how this started. Arguing facts and valid points will get both of you no where because both of you think you're right, but there is no right or wrong in this case. It's only perspective. Both of you are doing what you think is right but you're going about it all wrong.

Methrage and GOONS leadership need to sit down and be reasonable with eachother. Not try to muscles eachother with terms.

[magicmountain]

[quote name='Methrage' date='21 April 2010 - 08:30 PM' timestamp='1271903432' post='2270061']
I think this is a good question and am also curious as to what the answer is.
[/quote]

It's been said both ways in the past, the thing is I'm not sure who was speaking for themselves and who was speaking for the GOONS alliance official position. I'll leave that one for someone who can give you a real answer.

[quote name='BlkAK47002' date='21 April 2010 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1271903493' post='2270063']
I don't know, Whatever the GOONS or Methrage does is up to them.

But my suggestion would be to have a reasonable level headed neutral mediator and attempt to hold peace talks again. The bickering is pretty pointless. Methrage and a few GOONS members had a disagreement in his DoW thread which is how this started. Arguing facts and valid points will get both of you no where because both of you think you're right, but there is no right or wrong in this case. It's only perspective. Both of you are doing what you think is right but you're going about it all wrong.

Methrage and GOONS leadership need to sit down and be reasonable with eachother. Not try to muscles eachother with terms.
[/quote]

I absolutely agree with this, and our leadership is really quite reasonable. I'm not going to call them mature, if I did they might very well be insulted, but GOONS are certainly reasonable. I'm telling you it is Methrage who is being unreasonable, airing out his dirty laundry in public. Of course, he says we're being unreasonable, so it seems we'll continue to point fingers at each other and yell very loudly for the foreseeable future.

Edited April 22, 2010 by magicmountain

[Jakome]

[quote name='Methrage' date='21 April 2010 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1271903432' post='2270061']
I think this is a good question and am also curious as to what the answer is.
[/quote]
[center]Man You Want Answers
Which You Never Seem To Give
I'LL NOW USE CAPS LOCK[/center]

[Sardonic]

[quote name='BlkAK47002' date='21 April 2010 - 09:31 PM' timestamp='1271903493' post='2270063']
Methrage and GOONS leadership need to sit down and be reasonable with eachother. Not try to muscles eachother with terms.
[/quote]
Yes, we should clearly negotiate with him on equal terms, thanks random bystander.

[quote name='Methrage' date='21 April 2010 - 08:53 PM' timestamp='1271901176' post='2270011']
If you guys don't think you made any mistakes, maybe it was all intentional that you ended up in this situation. However I think the mistakes began with your attacks on CSA and poor diplomacy from you guys since then.
[/quote]

The reason he can't answer this is because the facts are all on our side. He can cry all he wants about a vague injustice, but try to nail it down and it vanishes.

These are the facts:

1. CSA aids our enemies.

2. We attack CSA for 1, when diplomacy fails

3. You aid CSA

4. We attack you in the same vein as 2

Aiding enemies is an aggressive action, you should learn this.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='21 April 2010 - 10:43 PM' timestamp='1271904196' post='2270083']
Aiding enemies is an aggressive action, you should learn this.
[/quote]
Well my aid slots clear tomorrow, so if anyone wants to initiate secret aggressive action there is always secret foreign aid.

[magicmountain]

Thanks Sardonic, that fills in a couple holes in my understanding.

So to summarize, Methrage's position is that we started this conflict by attacking him and successfully lobbying to have him sanctioned and he will continue his crusade against us until we apologize.

Our position is Methrage started this conflict by aiding CSA and threatening us with retaliation for our actions against them.

Did I miss anything?

Edited April 22, 2010 by magicmountain

[BlkAK47_002]

[quote name='Methrage' date='21 April 2010 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1271904381' post='2270085']
Well my aid slots clear tomorrow, so if anyone wants to initiate secret aggressive action there is always secret foreign aid.
[/quote]
Now you're just provoking them.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='magicmountain' date='21 April 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1271904658' post='2270087']
Thanks Sardonic, that fills in a couple holes in my understanding.

So to summarize, Methrage's position is that we started this conflict by attacking him for no reason and he will continue his crusade against us until we apologize.

Our position is Methrage started this conflict by aiding CSA and threatening us with retaliation for our actions against them.

Did I miss anything?
[/quote]
I don't think you declared for no reason, you guys declared on me and got me sanctioned for sending aid to a CSA member who joined Citadel but got deleted twice due to some people's efforts. I don't think that was a good reason to sanction me while you attacked.

[magicmountain]

[quote name='BlkAK47002' date='21 April 2010 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1271904757' post='2270090']
Now you're just provoking them.
[/quote]
Now are you beginning to understand our side? Believe me, he's setting the tone here.

[lamuella]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='21 April 2010 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1271901908' post='2270033']
Wait. Is the GOONS rationale for the sanction now "Responding to Methrage is more fun"?
[/quote]

what makes you think that this is the case?

[magicmountain]

[quote name='Methrage' date='21 April 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1271904915' post='2270094']
I don't think you declared for no reason, you guys declared on me and got me sanctioned for sending aid to a CSA member who joined Citadel but got deleted twice due to some people's efforts. I don't think that was a good reason to sanction me while you attacked.
[/quote]

Oh, my mistake. Sorry about that, I'll go edit my previous post.

While you're here, you never answered my question about how all this started? I'd like to hear your version of events since I've been going on and on about the GOONS side.

Edited April 22, 2010 by magicmountain

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Methrage' date='21 April 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1271904381' post='2270085']
Well my aid slots clear tomorrow, so if anyone wants to initiate secret aggressive action there is always secret foreign aid.
[/quote]
I see no denial of our timeline of events. You have nothing, we are right. Nobody cares about the sanction non-issue either. Sanctioning rogues like yourself is common.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Sardonic

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Sardonic' date='21 April 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1271906329' post='2270144']
I see no denial of our timeline of events. You have nothing, we are right. Nobody cares about the sanction non-issue either. Sanctioning rogues like yourself is common.
[/quote]
If no one cares it doesn't make much sense that GOONS would be leaking members and Citadel to be gaining members.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Methrage' date='21 April 2010 - 10:24 PM' timestamp='1271906668' post='2270149']
If no one cares it doesn't make much sense that GOONS would be leaking members and Citadel to be gaining members.
[/quote]
Oh you poor dear, you really believe that don't you?

[lamuella]

[quote name='Methrage' date='21 April 2010 - 10:24 PM' timestamp='1271906668' post='2270149']
If no one cares it doesn't make much sense that GOONS would be leaking members and Citadel to be gaining members.
[/quote]

in the last 2 days, we've had 13 people join the alliance, and 3 leave. That's a net gain of ten, for the mathematically impaired.

[Schattenmann]

Ugh, seriously. What happens when you put someone who takes himself way too seriously with 200 people that pretend they're not taking themselves way too seriously?

Edited April 22, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Ordinator]

This thread is about Umbrella's use of their Senator to sanction Methrage at GOONS request. It is not about GOONS recruiting practices or economic growth, and buzzwords like "troll" or "multi" should definitely not be contained within the discourse. See that you all stay on topic and away from language best kept to the Mod forums.