Delta1212 Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1273528108' post='2293934'] I am [i]actively[/i] working to stop the excesses of the Hegemony. [/quote] No, you aren't. The Hegemony is dead. IRON is not a hegemonic power. You also aren't stopping them from doing anything except achieving peace. There is a difference between trying to kill a lion that's about to maul someone and kicking an injured cat to keep it from getting back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncos98 Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 If you don't blindly follow Ramirus, as you seem to suggest above, then why did the voting go the way of keeping him in power? You seem to infer (I say seem because the rest of CN uses a different dictionary than you) that not everyone (meaning your alliance no?) agrees with his position...yet here is your entire alliance still working to pursue his desires. Let me guess..."Reading comprehension!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zangmonkey Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Delta1212' date='10 May 2010 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1273528652' post='2293947'] No, you aren't. The Hegemony is dead. IRON is not a hegemonic power. You also aren't stopping them from doing anything except achieving peace. There is a difference between trying to kill a lion that's about to maul someone and kicking an injured cat to keep it from getting back up. [/quote] IRON clearly does not consider themselves an injured cat; and Gremlins can hardly be considered to be kicking them while they're down. The Hegemony lives in the premise that it's ok to attack for no valid reason and then pay bribes to get released with no allocution. Edited May 10, 2010 by Matthew PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 06:00 PM' timestamp='1273528800' post='2293952'] IRON clearly does not consider themselves an injured cat; and Gremlins can hardly be considered to be kicking them while they're down. The Hegemony lives in the premise that it's ok to attack for no valid reason and then pay bribes to get released with no allocution. [/quote] So you think C&G are morally bankrupt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 05:48 PM' timestamp='1273528108' post='2293934'] I am [i]actively[/i] working to stop the excesses of the Hegemony. [/quote] Are you familiar with the phrase "When you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back"? Its a cautionary, designed to remind of the very real danger of becoming that which you oppose. You begin to hate something so much that you are willing to embrace any means in order to throw down the object of your hate. One day, you will wake up and realize you have embraced everything you hated about the Hegemony and its excesses in the name of throwing it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zangmonkey Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Broncos98' date='10 May 2010 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1273528657' post='2293948'] If you don't blindly follow Ramirus, as you seem to suggest above, then why did the voting go the way of keeping him in power? You seem to infer (I say seem because the rest of CN uses a different dictionary than you) that not everyone (meaning your alliance no?) agrees with his position...yet here is your entire alliance still working to pursue his desires. Let me guess..."Reading comprehension!" [/quote] I don't control the votes of others. I only control my vote. I voted for him because I am content with the job he's doing and want to continue along the plan our conclave (including him) devised. I propose that others voted for him for the same reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zangmonkey Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Delta1212' date='10 May 2010 - 03:01 PM' timestamp='1273528859' post='2293954'] So you think C&G are morally bankrupt? [/quote] I think they were misguided when they released IRON in the way they did. But see, I can think they made a mistake and not hate them... all at the same time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zangmonkey Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='TypoNinja' date='10 May 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1273528918' post='2293956'] Are you familiar with the phrase "When you stare into the abyss the abyss stares back"? Its a cautionary, designed to remind of the very real danger of becoming that which you oppose. You begin to hate something so much that you are willing to embrace any means in order to throw down the object of your hate. [/quote] I don't hate IRON. I just think they should serve restitution. [quote]One day, you will wake up and realize you have embraced everything you hated about the Hegemony and its excesses in the name of throwing it down. [/quote] On that day, you are entrusted with having me serve restitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwoody Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1273529161' post='2293962'] I think they were misguided when they released IRON in the way they did. But see, I can think they made a mistake and not hate them... all at the same time! [/quote] So on what terms do you think IRON and DAWN should release you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyNail Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 Ramirus hates all alliances, I was under the impression that he hated Gre just a little bit less. Apparently I was wrong, he hates Gramlins more than everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwoody Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1273529239' post='2293966'] On that day, you are entrusted with having me serve restitution. [/quote] Oh you will. Sooner rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1273529239' post='2293966'] I don't hate IRON. I just think they should serve restitution. [/quote] What do you believe proper restitution would be, having expressed your disdain for tangible reparations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypoNinja Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1273529239' post='2293966'] I don't hate IRON. I just think they should serve restitution. [/quote] Uhh did you miss the Easter Sunday accords? I wouldn't claim to have memorized them myself, but I'm pretty sure they are chock full of restitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manwe Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 Please try to avoid the double/triple posting. Edit subsequent responses into the first post next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zangmonkey Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='bigwoody' date='10 May 2010 - 03:08 PM' timestamp='1273529270' post='2293969'] So on what terms do you think IRON and DAWN should release you? [/quote] They should order us to attack TBBAF... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwoody Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 05:12 PM' timestamp='1273529559' post='2293982'] They should order us to attack TBBAF... [/quote] How about Ramirus publicly admitting you guys were wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zangmonkey Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Lord Brendan' date='10 May 2010 - 03:10 PM' timestamp='1273529390' post='2293976'] What do you believe proper restitution would be, having expressed your disdain for tangible reparations? [/quote] I think their restitution should include some admission of wrongdoing. And no, I don't think that admitting defeat and paying reps qualify as an admission of wrongdoing; righteous parties lose wars and pay reps all the time. [quote name='Manwe' date='10 May 2010 - 03:12 PM' timestamp='1273529529' post='2293981'] Please try to avoid the double/triple posting. Edit subsequent responses into the first post next time. [/quote] Sorry, I just always think individual posts are clearer. I'll try to stay on top of this. [quote name='bigwoody' date='10 May 2010 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1273529786' post='2293984'] How about Ramirus publicly admitting you guys were wrong? [/quote] And make a liar of him? Outrageous! Edited May 10, 2010 by Matthew PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 06:17 PM' timestamp='1273529834' post='2293985'] I think their restitution should include some admission of wrongdoing. [/quote] And why couldn't you simply have made an admission of wrongdoing one of the terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwoody Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 05:17 PM' timestamp='1273529834' post='2293985'] And make a liar of him? Outrageous! [/quote] Well I am lobbying for that to be the key component of your surrender terms, so you better come to terms ( ) with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zangmonkey Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Delta1212' date='10 May 2010 - 03:24 PM' timestamp='1273530248' post='2293993'] And why couldn't you simply have made an admission of wrongdoing one of the terms? [/quote] I don't understand your question. [quote name='bigwoody' date='10 May 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1273530359' post='2293995'] Well I am lobbying for that to be the key component of your surrender terms, so you better come to terms ( ) with it. [/quote] That's based on the poor assumption that Ramirus is the cupable member. The Gremlins collectively endorse him. Also, you think it's ok to place alliance terms such that they alienate specific members? Interesting. Edited May 10, 2010 by Matthew PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shilo Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='11 May 2010 - 01:17 AM' timestamp='1273529834' post='2293985'] I think their restitution should include some admission of wrongdoing. And no, I don't think that admitting defeat and paying reps qualify as an admission of wrongdoing; righteous parties lose wars and pay reps all the time. [/quote] But your understanding of restitution always had to include us surrendering without conditions and full demilitarization, and then an ultimate presentation of terms, is that correct? Cause any other way, you could have achieved by simply asking for it during the peace talks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwoody Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1273530376' post='2293998'] I don't understand your question. [/quote] In the Easter Sunday Accords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1273530376' post='2293998'] I don't understand your question. [/quote] If you don't believe justice has been served because IRON didn't have to admit they were wrong, why couldn't you just have made admitting they were wrong one of the terms instead of dragging things out like this? It seems like a more direct approach that probably would have worked, as opposed to this one that clearly isn't turning out to be all that successful. Edited May 10, 2010 by Delta1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='07 May 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1273265073' post='2290578'] While I agree with the notion that it is an alliances right to declare war on whoever they so choose for whatever reason they so choose, I feel that an exercise of such a sovereign right should be a measure of [i]absolute last resort[/i] when not bound by treaty to do so or personally wronged. For such a thing to occur, all other options which could be taken to remedy the injustice would had to have been exhausted and proven unfruitful. We are a very legalistic community, and we go by the words enumerated in our charter and treaties first and foremost, and the powers which are implied within them second. At the same time, I do believe something must be done. A year ago my alliance and many, many others put their all into changing the way things worked, and this situation is categorically aligned to that which we wanted to rid this planet of because of the fundamental injustice behind such acts and the detrimental effects that they have on the community. Because of that, I believe it must not be allowed to continue or prove beneficial for Gre in any way. But, on the face of the matter its not our place to interfere, nor is it that of anyone else who does not hold a treaty with the aggrieved. An outside and uninvolved party such as us should not have to step in and rectify this, that should be the duty and province of IRON/DAWN's treaty partners above all else. Now like I said, I would not feel comfortable with "doing something" unless it was the absolute last resort, and I know for a fact here that none of those who's shoulders the duty of rectification should traditionally fall on have made any attempt to take action. They cannot say they are unable, because they have not even tested the waters to see if it is so. But, if they will not take action because they are unwilling, they need to make it known so that others can decide if we are now within the area of last resort. [/quote] Perhaps IRONs treaty partners are taking this opportunity to allow the other side of the treaty web to see for themselves what they really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwoody Posted May 10, 2010 Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 [quote name='Matthew PK' date='10 May 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1273530376' post='2293998'] That's based on the poor assumption that Ramirus is the cupable member. The Gremlins collectively endorse him. Also, you think it's ok to place alliance terms such that they alienate specific members? Interesting. [/quote] No, its based on making your leader post it, not one of his lackeys. If he is voted out first, it will be someone else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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