TSO Announcement

[MaGneT]

[quote name='hymli' date='26 February 2010 - 01:47 AM' timestamp='1267167053' post='2204609']
Support given on false pretenses. When lies are given as justification for war the people being lied to have a tendency get unhappy and might not want to be friends any more.
[/quote]
Whether we were lied to or not was a moot point. MCXA was hungry for the senate before and after that conflict. It was an unspoken agreement: a bunch of us had nukes spied away, and we had all been getting angry at NADC's presence on the blue senate. For the most part, we didn't care who had done it as long as it meant a senate seat. None of us were dumb enough to believe that NADC had the capacity to pull something like that off. But did we care? No. And neither did your leadership. Not once did they say "hey, let's take a second".

Even after the war, when Polar was the main threat to MCXA's senate seat, Fresh was going around whining to certain BLEU members about how he had over 100 votes less than Myworld. Do you really think that MCXA didn't know the real reasons behind that war? Do you really thing they weren't one of the driving forces behind it?

I think our issue is more with the fact that we (being myself, raasaa, Sponge, and the rest of BLEU's leadership) paid the consequences for our actions. We learned our lesson. MCXA's leadership, however, jumped ship during NoCB, then avoided justice yet again during Karma. They're cowards. You can't dispute that. We all know the truth, and one day they'll get theirs too.

[keltoi]

[quote name='MaGneT' date='26 February 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1267219469' post='2205326']
I think our issue is more with the fact that we (being myself, raasaa, Sponge, and the rest of BLEU's leadership) paid the consequences for our actions. We learned our lesson. MCXA's leadership, however, jumped ship during NoCB, then avoided justice yet again during Karma. They're cowards. You can't dispute that. We all know the truth, and one day they'll get theirs too.
[/quote]
In all honesty Magnet, this is the first time that i've seen you explain yourself rationally on the subject, I can even respect your position here. Further, I can even concede that I may have wronged you in dismissing you and the others as nothing more than mindless parrots all this time. I won't apologize for the actions taken then, I will admit that perhaps "the truth" as you see it is as honest to you as the "truth" as I see it is to me.

And for clarification, MCXA did not "jump ship" because Polar was going to be beat down, we left so that it would be possible for us to wage war against what we honestly saw as Polar intent to wage war against us. Again, this is our point of view, yours may differ.

[Lord Brendan]

If I recall correctly regarding the TSO-USN situation (unless you're talking about something else Haf), MCXA wanted the traitors/poachers off their AA so a few of the soon-to-be TSO members joined USN with the full knowledge that they wouldn't be staying long and didn't reveal their intentions to the alliance they were joining. While it was certainly underhanded I'm not sure I would deem it spying because their intent was simply to find a safe harbor, not to actually gather information.

Was a year ago of course so I might be wrong on some points.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[Emporor]

Congrats TSO!


I would wish you luck but, You are at war with mah protector.

[hymli]

[quote name='MaGneT' date='26 February 2010 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1267219469' post='2205326']
Whether we were lied to or not was a moot point. MCXA was hungry for the senate before and after that conflict. It was an unspoken agreement: a bunch of us had nukes spied away, and we had all been getting angry at NADC's presence on the blue senate. For the most part, we didn't care who had done it as long as it meant a senate seat. None of us were dumb enough to believe that NADC had the capacity to pull something like that off. But did we care? No. And neither did your leadership. Not once did they say "hey, let's take a second".
[/quote]
Of course it matters. The bottom line is that the whole of MCXA were unhappy with MCXA membership in BLEU. The vote was held, and MCXA wanted out, and this happened before Fresh did his last ditch attempt to get NpO ejected from BLEU.

[quote]
Even after the war, when Polar was the main threat to MCXA's senate seat, Fresh was going around whining to certain BLEU members about how he had over 100 votes less than Myworld. Do you really think that MCXA didn't know the real reasons behind that war? Do you really thing they weren't one of the driving forces behind it?
[/quote]
Fresh is still in MCXA. If you have a problem with him, go to him. Don't whine about him to us.

[quote]
I think our issue is more with the fact that we (being myself, raasaa, Sponge, and the rest of BLEU's leadership) paid the consequences for our actions. We learned our lesson. MCXA's leadership, however, jumped ship during NoCB, then avoided justice yet again during Karma. They're cowards. You can't dispute that. We all know the truth, and one day they'll get theirs too.
[/quote]
Right, so leaving BLUE [b]two months before[/b] the NoCB equals jumping ship [b]during[/b] the NoCB war in your mind? If so, you have a weird concept of time.
The MCXA/TSO split also happened over two months before the Karma war. And that was because Gopher wanted it so.

You got rolled, MCXA didn't, and you're bitter about it. Fine. But don't confuse your own bitterness with injustice.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='26 February 2010 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1267220910' post='2205362']
If I recall correctly regarding the TSO-USN situation (unless you're talking about something else Haf), MCXA wanted the traitors/poachers off their AA so a few of the soon-to-be TSO members joined USN with the full knowledge that they wouldn't be staying long and didn't reveal their intentions to the alliance they were joining. While it was certainly underhanded I'm not sure I would deem it spying because their intent was simply to find a safe harbor, not to actually gather information.

Was a year ago of course so I might be wrong on some points.
[/quote]
You're generally correct. You missed out on where the "USN members" joined USN private members-only IRC channels after joining TSO.

[keltoi]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='26 February 2010 - 02:14 PM' timestamp='1267222680' post='2205394']
You're generally correct. You missed out on where the "USN members" joined USN private members-only IRC channels after joining TSO.
[/quote]You are without a doubt one of the most ridiculous conspiracy theorists on this planet haf. You know perfectly well that of the people who left mcxa for USN, some intially opposed our forming, others sought a safe place to think things over at the urging of a current member of USN. You also know that some of those people paid a sum of money to USN for that. The fact that some have now joined us doesnt make them spies, nor does /ajoin.

You are just making drama for drama's sake, again.

get over the senate thing already, or at least be honest that that is the cause of your nonsense, quit making crap up.

[fluffyewunga]

Guys the USN-TSO "Situation" has been over a long time. Yes 2 members of TSO paid us for their misdeminors and it was left at that. I see no reason to continue it discussion. We don't care about the inccident after it's was resolved.

[keltoi]

[quote name='fluffyewunga' date='26 February 2010 - 02:32 PM' timestamp='1267223741' post='2205415']
Guys the USN-TSO "Situation" has been over a long time. Yes 2 members of TSO paid us for their misdeminors and it was left at that. I see no reason to continue it discussion. We don't care about the inccident after it's was resolved.
[/quote]
thank you

[MaGneT]

[quote name='hymli' date='26 February 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1267222027' post='2205385']
Fresh is still in MCXA. If you have a problem with him, go to him. Don't whine about him to us.


Right, so leaving BLUE [b]two months before[/b] the NoCB equals jumping ship [b]during[/b] the NoCB war in your mind? If so, you have a weird concept of time.
The MCXA/TSO split also happened over two months before the Karma war. And that was because Gopher wanted it so.

You got rolled, MCXA didn't, and you're bitter about it. Fine. But don't confuse your own bitterness with injustice.
[/quote]
Fresh was one of the few people in MCXA who was respectable enough to try to help us out. The rest of you were rats who didn't give a hoot if allies who would've gone to ZI and back for you in a heartbeat got beat down as long as you saved your skin.

Your memory seems a bit lackluster. MCXA stayed as one alliance through the NoCB war. MCXA and Echelon ran from BLEU before NoCB, then, when their judgment day came, Echelon's leadership stood tall and got what they deserved, and I respect them for that. MCXA's leadership, however, fled to hide behind TOP, because they knew that Karma needed TOP on their side. Cowards.

I am in no way bitter about being rolled. The BLEU sigs all participated in acts whose reasons were mostly "we don't like them, and we can kill them if we want". We deserved what we got. For the most part, we've learned our lesson. Your leadership was as complicit as any other. And don't give me a tearful "but the general members voted to leave BLEU!" You only voted to leave BLEU when you saw that the general mood of Planet Bob was very much against us. That isn't noble, that isn't moral outrage against the wars against NADC or GUN, that's an entire alliance behaving as a pack of poltroons. When TSO/MCXA's government needed BLEU to gain power on the blue sphere, they sang its praises, and helped push for a war on NADC, which would secure them a senate seat 100% of the time. But when BLEU became more of a liability, you showed your colors as a pack of self-serving turncoats.

That's the truth. That's one of the reasons MCXA was beat down along with the rest of the Hegemony. That's the reason that TSO is one of the most reviled alliances on Planet Bob.

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='raasaa' date='26 February 2010 - 07:55 AM' timestamp='1267167537' post='2204616']
I understand that gullible minds simply cannot comprehend the manner in which the exit was carried out. We have no issues with MCXA leaving BLEU, their alliance, their choice, their decision whether or not to remain in the bloc.

But we do have an issue that MCXA tried to spread false rumors regarding another member of the same bloc, trying to get them ejected from BLEU and isolate them on the treaty web. Again, the majority of the voters, which comprised of the active members of MCXA, are now in TSO

P.S : a few more announcements from TSO should help my post count on these forums
[/quote]

In one of my posts yesterday or the day before I have given you 4 points why we've left BLEU. What you write now, sounds a lot different than where we started. Whatever, the 4 points I have given you, were the reasons we are leaving. I knew that Fresh was trying to get NpO out of Polar, but I didn't know what reasons he told you he used. He is grown up, not in TSO, not our problem. Stop blaming us.


[quote name='MaGneT' date='26 February 2010 - 08:18 AM' timestamp='1267168920' post='2204642']
Sorry for venturing back here, but it's just too tempting.

MCXA's leadership (and now TSO's) ran a campaign within BLEU to try to undermine NpO. In my opinion, this was under NPO's direction. Why?
They wanted to remove Polar and Sponge without having to fight a global war. They also wanted to take an entire color bloc under their sphere of influence.

This is common knowledge. Wake up.
[/quote]

It wasn't under our direction. I know there are the logs from Dilber, they are taken out of context. In fact, we went to him, telling him we'll resign, he asked us to wait. Thus, out of respect for them, we waited.
And yes, we wanted Sponge removed. Him being Emperor again was a slap in our face. Also, our Members were very eager on fighting, thus in the end, we fought.

That said, I personally, and I doubt anyone in TSO was ever hot on the blue senate seat. I mean, I was Chancellor, if I really wanted it, I could have simply removed Fresh. Yet I didn't because today and at that time, the team senat can be compared to the (OOC) UN in my opinion. It's a useless political tool unless you are a nuke rogue.

[quote name='magicninja' date='26 February 2010 - 08:29 AM' timestamp='1267169603' post='2204653']
On a side note have you guys really been changing AA's so you can slip into peacemode?
[/quote]

Because two people changed their AA? Oh come on now...do you really think we don't know we got monitored?

[quote name='raasaa' date='26 February 2010 - 08:44 AM' timestamp='1267170452' post='2204675']
problem here is, being one of the leaders who was approached by Dr Fresh at that time, i know that MCXA did try to undermine NpO's position in BLEU. That is not common propaganda, it is a fact.
[/quote]

I admitted I don't know what he said.

[quote name='raasaa' date='26 February 2010 - 10:14 AM' timestamp='1267175850' post='2204744']
BLEU got rolled because they stood by their MADP ally in NpO. We are not the kind to cut and run at times of war, jumping to the more stronger side. Fortunately, that didn't work out for you on the long run.


Oh great, now Fresh acted without government authority on trying to eject NpO from BLEU...what next, Fresh was the complete mastermind behind every and any bad decisions taken by MCXA ??


And how did you arrive at that conclusion....which brilliant genius fed you guys the wrong information regarding the NpO - NADC war ??


Why MCXA, the people who executed the plot reside in TSO....

Broken record will stop once scum own up and change their attitude
[/quote]

Fortunately, you don't know us. No one in TSO ever cared about infra, or why have we suddenly stopped caring about it? We didn't want to support NpO anymore, because for the 4 reasons (and more) I mentioned. We fight for our friends. We have fought for NpO / Viridia during GWIII without treaty obligation and were ZIed; because they were our friends at that time.

Today, we are fighting for TOP for the very same reasons. But there was no way in hell we'd stand by the alliance that betrayed us that many times within a few months. Trust me, to cancel BLEU was very disappointing for us, yet the only possible and logical step.




[quote name='MaGneT' date='26 February 2010 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1267219469' post='2205326']
Whether we were lied to or not was a moot point. MCXA was hungry for the senate before and after that conflict. It was an unspoken agreement: a bunch of us had nukes spied away, and we had all been getting angry at NADC's presence on the blue senate. For the most part, we didn't care who had done it as long as it meant a senate seat. None of us were dumb enough to believe that NADC had the capacity to pull something like that off. But did we care? No. And neither did your leadership. Not once did they say "hey, let's take a second". [/quote]

That's bs. We had our senate seat, we knew we wouldn't get a second one. So even if it were true what you said, that we knew that the NADC CB is bs, there woudld have been no logical reason for us to participate.
[quote]
Even after the war, when Polar was the main threat to MCXA's senate seat, Fresh was going around whining to certain BLEU members about how he had over 100 votes less than Myworld. Do you really think that MCXA didn't know the real reasons behind that war? Do you really thing they weren't one of the driving forces behind it?

I think our issue is more with the fact that we (being myself, raasaa, Sponge, and the rest of BLEU's leadership) paid the consequences for our actions. We learned our lesson. MCXA's leadership, however, jumped ship during NoCB, then avoided justice yet again during Karma. They're cowards. You can't dispute that. We all know the truth, and one day they'll get theirs too.
[/quote]

Nope.

We offered MCXA a treaty before we left. We offered NPO a treaty before we left. We did that, because we didn't want to fight the Karma war? Yes sure thing.
What lessons did you learn? That attacking the allies of allies is bad? That talking !@#$ about allies of allies and plotting a war against them in dangerous? I am afraid we don't have to learn these lessons.


[quote name='Haflinger' date='26 February 2010 - 11:14 PM' timestamp='1267222680' post='2205394']
You're generally correct. You missed out on where the "USN members" joined USN private members-only IRC channels after joining TSO.
[/quote]

I am not certain about whom you are talking, I am sure that it wasn't spying. It was the proof that we in fact didn't poach Members, but that it was their very own free will to join us. That they joined USN just a few days ago was unfortunate, thus they paid.

[quote name='MaGneT' date='27 February 2010 - 12:10 AM' timestamp='1267226010' post='2205455']
Fresh was one of the few people in MCXA who was respectable enough to try to help us out. The rest of you were rats who didn't give a hoot if allies who would've gone to ZI and back for you in a heartbeat got beat down as long as you saved your skin.

Your memory seems a bit lackluster. MCXA stayed as one alliance through the NoCB war. MCXA and Echelon ran from BLEU before NoCB, then, when their judgment day came, Echelon's leadership stood tall and got what they deserved, and I respect them for that. MCXA's leadership, however, fled to hide behind TOP, because they knew that Karma needed TOP on their side. Cowards.

I am in no way bitter about being rolled. The BLEU sigs all participated in acts whose reasons were mostly "we don't like them, and we can kill them if we want". We deserved what we got. For the most part, we've learned our lesson. Your leadership was as complicit as any other. And don't give me a tearful "but the general members voted to leave BLEU!" You only voted to leave BLEU when you saw that the general mood of Planet Bob was very much against us. That isn't noble, that isn't moral outrage against the wars against NADC or GUN, that's an entire alliance behaving as a pack of poltroons. When TSO/MCXA's government needed BLEU to gain power on the blue sphere, they sang its praises, and helped push for a war on NADC, which would secure them a senate seat 100% of the time. But when BLEU became more of a liability, you showed your colors as a pack of self-serving turncoats.

That's the truth. That's one of the reasons MCXA was beat down along with the rest of the Hegemony. That's the reason that TSO is one of the most reviled alliances on Planet Bob.
[/quote]

1. You guys are complaining about Fresh yet saying he is a respectable guy and at the same time blaming his actions on us. Priceless.

2. I told you about the Karma war already.

3. Tell me which of BLEU's actions were aggressively started by MCXA? Which alliance did we start to "bully" as you might call it? Did we start the NADC conflict? No. Did we start the GUN thing? - no. Did we start hitting VE's allies? - again, no.
We participated because it was our obligation, and everyone in BLEU knew our opinion about it. I remember Grub calling us cowards when we tried to leave the NADC conflict. I remember getting in endless discussions and I regret that we didn't leave earlier. Would have saved all of us valuable time.

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Baden-Württemberg' date='26 February 2010 - 06:47 PM' timestamp='1267228233' post='2205517']
3. Tell me which of BLEU's actions were aggressively started by MCXA? Which alliance did we start to "bully" as you might call it? Did we start the NADC conflict? No. Did we start the GUN thing? - no. Did we start hitting VE's allies? - again, no.
We participated because it was our obligation, and everyone in BLEU knew our opinion about it. I remember Grub calling us cowards when we tried to leave the NADC conflict. I remember getting in endless discussions and I regret that we didn't leave earlier. Would have saved all of us valuable time.
[/quote]
You supported the war with NADC. You fought alongside us. That's support.
You even supported attacking the whole alliance again because 20% of them were violating terms.

I don't recall any of MCXA's government members saying anything against that war. I could be wrong, though, that was over two years ago, so feel free to log dump.

[Lusitan]

[quote name='MaGneT' date='27 February 2010 - 12:50 AM' timestamp='1267232054' post='2205588']
You supported the war with NADC. You fought alongside us. That's support.
You even supported attacking the whole alliance again because 20% of them were violating terms.

I don't recall any of MCXA's government members saying anything against that war. I could be wrong, though, that was over two years ago, so feel free to log dump.
[/quote]

For the sake of clarity, a MADP is a total and blind endorsement of one party's actions. Them saying they didn't support the NADC war is acceptable, not having acted upon it probably isn't (e.g. leaving BLEU after NADC war).

EDIT: Unless of course, they feared for their safety or were in any other way coerced to stay, that is.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Lusitan

[SunnyInc]

[quote name='MaGneT' date='27 February 2010 - 10:50 AM' timestamp='1267232054' post='2205588']
You supported the war with NADC. You fought alongside us. That's support.
You even supported attacking the whole alliance again because 20% of them were violating terms.

I don't recall any of MCXA's government members saying anything against that war. I could be wrong, though, that was over two years ago, so feel free to log dump.
[/quote]

Do not confuse honouring treaties with supporting a cause.

[TheEraser]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='26 February 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1267246051' post='2205851']
For the sake of clarity, a MADP is a total and blind endorsement of one party's actions. Them saying they didn't support the NADC war is acceptable, not having acted upon it probably isn't (e.g. leaving BLEU after NADC war).

EDIT: Unless of course, they feared for their safety or were in any other way coerced to stay, that is.
[/quote]
please, they left BLEU to get into one vision. They sold us out, plains and simple.

[SunnyInc]

[quote name='elborrador' date='27 February 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1267247154' post='2205881']
please, they left BLEU to get into one vision. They sold us out, plains and simple.
[/quote]

No, we left BLEU because ES completely alienated us as friends.

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='26 February 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1267246051' post='2205851']
For the sake of clarity, a MADP is a total and blind endorsement of one party's actions. Them saying they didn't support the NADC war is acceptable, not having acted upon it probably isn't (e.g. leaving BLEU after NADC war).

EDIT: Unless of course, they feared for their safety or were in any other way coerced to stay, that is.
[/quote]
A MADP does not force you to approve of everything your allies do, nor does it keep you from raising your concerns with them. No one from MCXA's leadership came to myself or anyone from SOUL, and we held a MADP with them outside BLEU as well. In fact, we considered them to be our closest ally.

MCXA left BLEU closer to the NoCB War. They had participated in a curbstomp after NADC (GUN). They weren't against BLEU's actions so much as BLEU's reputation.
[quote name='SunnyInc' date='26 February 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1267246375' post='2205856']
Do not confuse honouring treaties with supporting a cause.
[/quote]
I'm not confused. But MCXA's leadership never expressed their disapproval with the whole of BLEU.
[quote name='SunnyInc' date='27 February 2010 - 12:06 AM' timestamp='1267247424' post='2205893']
No, we left BLEU because ES completely alienated us as friends.
[/quote]
Oh, lordy. You left because NPO wanted ES alienated.

[Gopherbashi]

[quote name='hymli' date='26 February 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1267222027' post='2205385']
The MCXA/TSO split also happened over two months before the Karma war. [b]And that was because Gopher wanted it so.[/b][/quote]
And the Gopher said "Let the alliance be split into two"...

That would be incorrect. The decision to form that alliance was never under my control, and plans for its formation were already well in motion before I was made aware of them. The acceleration of a months-long transfer of government to one extending over a period of days was made around the same time, and I do not believe I was the chief reason why people wished to accelerate their departure.

I should note, in factual defense of TSO, that a number of departing government officials - specifically in the Minister of Defense - did make efforts to train those who would be replacing them.

My congratulations to TSO: I do not believe that many believed either of us to make it this far.

Should anyone wish to discuss the events of this split (you know, instead of just circling each other on unicycles and bashing each other over the head with rubber mallets), I'll stick around on IRC for about an hour.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Gopherbashi

[Lusitan]

[quote name='MaGneT' date='27 February 2010 - 05:30 AM' timestamp='1267248825' post='2205922']
A MADP does not force you to approve of everything your allies do, nor does it keep you from raising your concerns with them. No one from MCXA's leadership came to myself or anyone from SOUL, and we held a MADP with them outside BLEU as well. In fact, we considered them to be our closest ally.

MCXA left BLEU closer to the NoCB War. They had participated in a curbstomp after NADC (GUN). They weren't against BLEU's actions so much as BLEU's reputation.
[/quote]

Like I said, they may not approve, but they are still forced to do it - and with a smile on their faces. I don't want to get too much into the theory discussion/conspiracy because I know little of the events within BLEU (it's not like the BLEU not MADP ever knew anything about what was going on in the Bloc until before it was about to hit them, in my experience at least), but there are virtually hundreds of reasons for someone not to express their concerns about the direction of a Bloc who, you said yourself, displays the actions and attitude of "we don't like them, and we can kill them if we want".

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Lusitan' date='27 February 2010 - 12:48 AM' timestamp='1267249910' post='2206004']
Like I said, they may not approve, but they are still forced to do it - and with a smile on their faces. I don't want to get too much into the theory discussion/conspiracy because I know little of the events within BLEU (it's not like the BLEU not MADP ever knew anything about what was going on in the Bloc until before it was about to hit them, in my experience at least), but there are virtually hundreds of reasons for someone not to express their concerns about the direction of a Bloc who, you said yourself, displays the actions and attitude of "we don't like them, and we can kill them if we want".
[/quote]
You're implying that we coerced MCXA into cooperation. Given the fact that MCXA was part of NPO's sphere of influence, I doubt that they felt threatened by BLEU.
And, personally, I can't see a reason not to tell a MADP partner about something you disapprove of. DT and PC do it all the time.

[hymli]

[quote name='Gopherbashi' date='27 February 2010 - 06:30 AM' timestamp='1267248860' post='2205924']
And the Gopher said "Let the alliance be split into two"...

That would be incorrect. The decision to form that alliance was never under my control, and plans for its formation were already well in motion before I was made aware of them. The acceleration of a months-long transfer of government to one extending over a period of days was made around the same time, and I do not believe I was the chief reason why people wished to accelerate their departure.

I should note, in factual defense of TSO, that a number of departing government officials - specifically in the Minister of Defense - did make efforts to train those who would be replacing them.

My congratulations to TSO: I do not believe that many believed either of us to make it this far.

Should anyone wish to discuss the events of this split (you know, instead of just circling each other on unicycles and bashing each other over the head with rubber mallets), I'll stick around on IRC for about an hour.
[/quote]
That statement was about the timing of the departure. Nobody is claiming you had anything to do with the decision to form TSO.

[SunnyInc]

[quote name='MaGneT' date='27 February 2010 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1267248825' post='2205922']I'm not confused. But MCXA's leadership never expressed their disapproval with the whole of BLEU.

Oh, lordy. You left because NPO wanted ES alienated.
[/quote]

I'll take your word for it champ

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='MaGneT' date='27 February 2010 - 01:50 AM' timestamp='1267232054' post='2205588']
You supported the war with NADC. You fought alongside us. That's support.
You even supported attacking the whole alliance again because 20% of them were violating terms.

I don't recall any of MCXA's government members saying anything against that war. I could be wrong, though, that was over two years ago, so feel free to log dump.
[/quote]

Certainly, I am not going to search for logs of these conversation, because that would take me hours. But, I can tell you, that many of our Members, such as the current MCXA Chancellor NeurlLink and their current Judge Liffer were unhappy with the situation. While we defended the war internally, in order to keep the morale up, we very well presented our concerns to the Members of BLEU, and for that, were called cowards by Grub.

We also received a screenshot that showed Sponge saying we should get attacked because we are getting too strong. When we approached Myworld about it, he said, we shouldn't worry because Sponge is like a grumpy old man. This were his exact words.

So yes, we indeed disapproved of the war, because our Members did.

[quote name='elborrador' date='27 February 2010 - 06:02 AM' timestamp='1267247154' post='2205881']
please, they left BLEU to get into one vision. They sold us out, plains and simple.
[/quote]

You make it way too simple. The whole reasoning behind our decision was more complex than that. We were in the Continuum and had a treaty with Echelon and GGA. So that's bs.



[quote name='SunnyInc' date='27 February 2010 - 06:06 AM' timestamp='1267247424' post='2205893']
No, we left BLEU because ES completely alienated us as friends.
[/quote]

This.

[quote name='MaGneT' date='27 February 2010 - 06:30 AM' timestamp='1267248825' post='2205922']
A MADP does not force you to approve of everything your allies do, nor does it keep you from raising your concerns with them. No one from MCXA's leadership came to myself or anyone from SOUL, and we held a MADP with them outside BLEU as well. In fact, we considered them to be our closest ally.
[/quote]

I am rather certain that you guys knew about our concerns as well. I believe you that you didn't though, but I don't know why.


[quote]
MCXA left BLEU closer to the NoCB War. They had participated in a curbstomp after NADC (GUN). They weren't against BLEU's actions so much as BLEU's reputation.

I'm not confused. But MCXA's leadership never expressed their disapproval with the whole of BLEU.

Oh, lordy. You left because NPO wanted ES alienated.
[/quote]

Yes, we left closer to the WotC than to the NADC - War, because 1 or 2 $%&@ed up wars wasn't a reason for us to cancel that treaty. But you'll also remember that after GUN we refused to fight. That said, it wasn't BLEU's reputation that was damaged by NpO's, however claiming that we ever cared about our reputation is quite funny, because the past year we haven't. Why would you think that our stance on that has changed from then till now? I thought we don't change?

We didn't have a disapproval with whole of BLEU, if that's what came across to you, it's wrong. We had a major disapproval with Polar, that's it. Fresh gave you the opportunity to show them the boot, most of BLEU refused, thus in the end, there wasn't a choice left.

And seriously, if NPO wanted to see Sponge alienated they could have done that very well without our help. Sponge pissed off enough people.


[quote name='Gopherbashi' date='27 February 2010 - 06:30 AM' timestamp='1267248860' post='2205924']
And the Gopher said "Let the alliance be split into two"...

That would be incorrect. The decision to form that alliance was never under my control, and plans for its formation were already well in motion before I was made aware of them. The acceleration of a months-long transfer of government to one extending over a period of days was made around the same time, and I do not believe I was the chief reason why people wished to accelerate their departure.

I should note, in factual defense of TSO, that a number of departing government officials - specifically in the Minister of Defense - did make efforts to train those who would be replacing them.

My congratulations to TSO: I do not believe that many believed either of us to make it this far.

Should anyone wish to discuss the events of this split (you know, instead of just circling each other on unicycles and bashing each other over the head with rubber mallets), I'll stick around on IRC for about an hour.
[/quote]

We never claimed that you said Gopherbashi SPLIT! But we claimed that we offered to stay longer to help you out.

Mainly because of some of the drama, many major members (doesn't necessarily mean government) wanted to leave the alliance. I could hold them back for some time, but after the childish discussions continued, many people simply got enough of it. So in the end, the result would have been the same. Most of the Members would have left, however what I tried was keeping together the grouping. We also hoped to keep up good relations with MCXA, that's the part in where we failed.


[quote name='MaGneT' date='27 February 2010 - 08:04 AM' timestamp='1267254453' post='2206184']
You're implying that we coerced MCXA into cooperation. Given the fact that MCXA was part of NPO's sphere of influence, I doubt that they felt threatened by BLEU.
And, personally, I can't see a reason not to tell a MADP partner about something you disapprove of. DT and PC do it all the time.
[/quote]

After our resignation we indeed felt threatened by BLEU, considering past actions, and considering the liability of some of the leaders in this bloc. (That liability is IC meant. They used to tend to push the red button pretty quick)

As I said, you have a point, we should have been a lot more open about it. That's one of the mistakes we made in this conflict. But trust me on one thing, the NpO officials very well knew where we stood in this whole debacle.

[MaGneT]

[quote name='Baden-Württemberg' date='27 February 2010 - 04:44 AM' timestamp='1267264101' post='2206324']
<snip>
[/quote]
Perhaps this whole thing was more of a misunderstanding than I'd thought. I believe that you tried to help the situation, although I can't remember it, but neither of us have the time to sift through those logs, and the BLEU forum archive that I read through doesn't have many threads about the NADC war.

I'll exit the thread for real now. I'm still no fan of TSO, though .

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='MaGneT' date='27 February 2010 - 10:53 PM' timestamp='1267307827' post='2206961']
Perhaps this whole thing was more of a misunderstanding than I'd thought. I believe that you tried to help the situation, although I can't remember it, but neither of us have the time to sift through those logs, and the BLEU forum archive that I read through doesn't have many threads about the NADC war.

I'll exit the thread for real now. I'm still no fan of TSO, though .
[/quote]

TSO doesn't want to be liked, but we want the ignorance towards our alliance stop. Everyone who doesn't know us, hates us, there are a very few people who know us and dislike us, some of them might even have their reasons. That said, there are always two sides of one story, and our side has been ignored by most of the people, because it seems to be cool.

We don't want to be liked, simply that some people recognize that we might have a point and a few arguments when it comes to the issues presented.

That said, back to the actual topic. We in the Oblivion have and always had our very own ideals, even before the creation of TSO. You don't need to like them, but no matter how many people we piss off, these ideals will be followed, because we won't make decisions that don't please us, to suck up to other people.
One big part of these ideals, although I can't really talk as an official anymore, is that treaties as most of you see them, are rather unimportant. For us friendships matter, have always mattered and will always matter.

Thus we are fighting for TOP now. Like it or not.