House of Lords surrenders

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='El Hefe' date='10 February 2010 - 10:24 PM' timestamp='1265862246' post='2173889']
Don't even try to talk to me about honor. Echelon are about the last people I want to hear about honor from. I made a simple post about how long your (now former) allies gave their support for you - which was incredibly short, lets be honest - and you try to make it into something.

You guys have a bone to pick with me, either do something about it or kindly back off.

-El Hefe, Wearer of the Thongs
[/quote]

haha. Echelon has done its fair share of things, some good, some bad, but I checked, I can't find a member of Echelon who ever did an half-assed job for their alliance during a dire time of need and directly afterwards defecting to the enemy. So obviously, with our faults, we are still more honorable then you. Quite frankly, I feel that I will always have a bone to pick with you, when you so blatantly pose an insult a friend of mine (and of Echelon's), it only feels natural that I poke a little at you in return.

With that said, thanks for the help HoL, please disregard what EvilCam said, he doesn't understand the situation quite as well as some of us, HoL is a good bunch, them surrendering now doesn't change my opinion of them one bit.

Edited February 11, 2010 by memoryproblems

[Tomcat]

Congrats on peace
o7 FOK

Edited February 11, 2010 by Tomcat

[El Hefe]

[quote name='x Tela x' date='10 February 2010 - 10:33 PM' timestamp='1265862780' post='2173905']
Isn't RoK at war? About time to jump ship, isn't it?
[/quote]
This argument was used last time. Seriously - I waited until I had no cash barely any infra, and even after I had stated supporting the surrender terms (to which I would have had to pay into the tech btw). After both RL events, and OOC frienships changing I finally resigned my position then left a few days later.

[quote name='EvilCam' date='10 February 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1265863086' post='2173916']
LOL. Yeah El Hefe, shouldn't you be surrendering and delivering yourself as part of the surrender terms?
[/quote]
I'm rather sure you weren't even there when this happened... therefore I'm rather certain you're speaking from your behind right now.

[quote name='SilvioArjunza' date='10 February 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1265863141' post='2173918']
You are quite the bold mule to go mocking Echelon[/quote]
Frankly, these days it doesn't take much boldness to mock Echelon. I'd honestly thought people had gotten tired of it until they made the post shedding their surrender terms.

[quote]Should I point out that you were a Congress member, and your signature is on One Vision? How does that say about your willingness to stand by your allies, Hefe?[/quote]
At the time 1V was signed, yes I was a congress member. Later I became a Director. What does my signing the 1V treaty have to do with standing by allies? If you'll remember Echelon declared war during the Karma conflict via its 1V ties.

[quote]I really wouldn't call your former alliance-mates idiots, when you did such an eloquent job insuring they are what they are.[/quote]
I don't recall making the claim that they are idiots. Please point me to the place where I said this.

[Persephone1]

...I'm eager to see how this is resolved once we can sit down and talk without putting on a show. Cabaret night is next week, according to my calendar.

I'm sorry this war didn't play out as you intended Sal, but (having been in a ridiculously similar position) there's not much you can do - learn from the experience, and just be grateful your alliance is safe (as I am), even if few others are. I look forward to the day when our two alliances may be allies again.

...and stick with FOK. Who knows, maybe you'll find some more friends.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Persephone' date='11 February 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1265865408' post='2174003']
...I'm eager to see how this is resolved once we can sit down and talk without putting on a show. Cabaret night is next week, according to my calendar.

I'm sorry this war didn't play out as you intended Sal, but (having been in a ridiculously similar position) there's not much you can do - learn from the experience, and just be grateful your alliance is safe (as I am), even if few others are. I look forward to the day when our two alliances may be allies again.

...and stick with FOK. Who knows, maybe you'll find some more friends.
[/quote]
Very wise words that should be not only echoed but taken to heart, FOK is you couldnt ask for a better group of folks to have encountered

[El Hefe]

[quote name='memoryproblems' date='10 February 2010 - 11:10 PM' timestamp='1265865027' post='2173982']
Echelon has done its fair share of things, some good, some bad, but I checked, [b]I can't find a member of Echelon who ever did an half-assed job for their alliance during a dire time of need[/b] and directly afterwards defecting to the enemy. So obviously, with our faults, we are still more honorable then you.[/quote]
I'm sorry, but I'm laughing my $@! off at the fact you had the gall to say this to me with a (I'm assuming) straight face.

On that note, this is very much not related to the OP, and we should not divert the thread further. Neo Anglia has already been told he can reach me if he ever wants the whole story.

-El Hefe, Wearer of the Thongs

[EvilCam]

[quote name='Locke' date='11 February 2010 - 04:46 AM' timestamp='1265863587' post='2173928']
Well, since you can obviously see inside my head, I'll defer to your judgement on what I know.

Well, if you treated your allies better, you'd not be in this position. I'd never go take my alliance to war without even so much as notifying my allies, let alone getting them involved in the effort. If you treat your allies like !@#$, don't baww about it when they react in kind. If you had treated them as allies, they would have fought like allies. I hope my allies take notice of my attitude, and your allies take note of yours, and react accordingly. I'll strive to treat my allies like allies, whereas you don't, and we'll all go home happy. Well, if you're happy burning for your actions, that is, because that's where that kind of treatment takes you.
[/quote]

I never and I always and if you ever blah blah blah blah...

[Ding Dong]

Well this is disappointing. I don't agree with your actions HoL. Was this your plan all along? Pretence of war to make yourselves look honourable, then quit asap?

[SilvioArjunza]

[quote name='Ding Dong' date='10 February 2010 - 09:32 PM' timestamp='1265866348' post='2174039']
Well this is disappointing. I don't agree with your actions HoL. Was this your plan all along? Pretence of war to make yourselves look honourable, then quit asap?
[/quote] The pretense of war wouldn't make us honorable. It would end in a hasty decision, such as the one you see in this white peace agreement. It was made in hopes of saving a few nations from the devestations of war. A noble goal, but no the correct action. For a more thorough answer, see your forums.

Edited February 11, 2010 by SilvioArjunza

[Divi Filius]

Sheep are much better than technology anyway [img]http://www.fokalliance.com/forum/images/smilies/sheep.gif[/img]

Omnomnomnomnom

Edited February 11, 2010 by Divi Filius

[Fronz]

These are deplorable terms FOK, Greeting the Surrendering alliance with a trumpet fanfare? this only confirms those rumors about you being the new hegemony.

I bet your forced them to create a party planning commission too

Edited February 11, 2010 by Fronz

[Iosif]

FOK is the new hegemony, put this in your signature if you're down.

[duke81]

Great terms

[SilvioArjunza]

[quote name='Fronz' date='10 February 2010 - 10:08 PM' timestamp='1265868494' post='2174163']I bet your forced them to create a party planning commission too
[/quote]
They did, the monsters! Also, they're making us share our SCOTCH! These Dutchman have no soul.

[Chalaskan]

Good show FOK, as expected. o/

[erikz]

[quote name='EvilCam' date='11 February 2010 - 05:36 AM' timestamp='1265862972' post='2173911']
What do you know about it? Zero.
Are you saying that 'cause HoL felt slighted means they can justifiably puss out on a treaty? Okay - I hope your allies are taking notice of that attitude.
[/quote]
You have the right to feel that way about them, but tbh, they were actually able to dent us a bit - something you haven't really been able to do, neither did/does MCXA.

I still think it was a good show by them to enter the war after cancelling the treaty, and really putting in some effort: this was not some sort of half-assed attempt or simple war slot filling by HoL.

[Blinky969]

I feel obliged to comment, since that's my name on the treaty. That's my seal at the bottom of this post, and those are my soldiers who stood on the line, so if you have a problem with something, you can address it to me, or you can head by our forum where we'd be happy to talk at length about anything (and nothing, if you'd prefer).

First, thank you to those that do respect our decision, including our adversaries and the few members of Echelon who understand our position. I wish the situation was different.

Now the main purpose of my visit, aside from keeping Silvio from having a panic attack from all the vitriol... to everyone who's complaining about HoL's actions, I will state it quite clearly; HoL did not back out of this war to save it's infrastructure any more than it entered this war to save it's face. To accuse us of cowardice is at best drivel and at worst a bald faced lie, and if you really think we don't have the balls to stand up for our principles, I have plenty of infra to burn proving you wrong. We entered this war out of respect for Echelon and the alliance we have had for longer than some of you have been playing the game, and in spite of the fact that, over the past year, and perhaps beyond, that respect has been largely one-sided. Adding to that, we were honoring a treaty re-ratified, post-Karma, under false pretenses. It was different than the original and, trusting our longtime allies, we didn't catch a minor, important error. I will assume, in good faith, this was not a deliberate bait and switch. Had our relationship with Echelon been better, perhaps we would have joined the fray without needing a treaty clause, but with an altered document and an ally who didn't even bother telling us they were going to war? What exactly did you want us to do, fight it out to the end like good old boys? We were supposed to be your comrades, not your patsies. You'll have to find newer, stupider recruits for that job. This isn't really just about us 'drifting apart' or 'feeling slighted' by Echelon, there were flaws with the agreement that got us into the war in the first place, once we might have worked through if you had gave a damn.

History lesson: HoL had been allies with Echelon since when Khyber ran things, when most of you people complaining right now were all excited about your shiny new airplanes. Khyber and HoL had one VERY important agreement; we're generally pacifists. We don't like war, and especially not wars where everyone's basically jumping into a giant dog pile. Khyber understood that, so we signed a non-chaining treaty - we would have each other's backs, if some alliance showed up to take you down, but if it was one of those situations (A attacks B, B calls on C, C attacks A, A calls on D, etc.) our treaty would downgrade to optional, because Great Wars are waged by people who think war is fun, and we, frankly, don't. So we agreed that if you want to play nuke hockey with all the big boys, that would be fine, and we would wish you well, and maybe throw you some aid after the fact, and some tech deals, but you were on your own.

Anyway, Khyber's gone now, and since he's been gone, we really haven't heard from you guys much. At all, really, aside from the occasional hello, and when you guys want us to fight someone (That was just about the only time I remember El Hefe speaking directly to us, although I'm not Silvio, maybe you two chatted). After Karma, when you had to drop your treaties, according to surrender terms, we remained cordial. Then, in July or August, I think, when you sent us back the resign treaty, it wasn't the same. It was chaining. You guys had been our allies for over two years at this point, and honestly, we didn't read it that carefully. 'They're Echelon, they wouldn't d*ck us over.' I'll assume you guys didn't check and make sure it was the same treaty, you probably just ctrl+c-ed one offline (McKinnon was the one who posted it).

That said, we should have double-checked it, so when the call came for war this time, and we realized the situation, we said, 'well !@#$, I guess we're going to war' and we went. This was in spite of a treaty that, frankly, was wrong, and the fact that you guys never even told us you were going to war. Silvio found out when he looked at the global wars for the day. So honestly, for all the smack some of you want to talk, you really can't back a whole lot of it up, because we could have just ripped the treaty up and spat on it, and it would have been about as respectful as the way some of you have acted towards us.

If our assistance was really all that important to you, you probably should have said something, or anything, about it. Instead you wanna cry and moan that we didn't help you more? I personally took three nukes for you guys, and you know what, yeah, I could have taken four. Five. Seven. Twelve. How many would have made you happy? Considering that I didn't have to take any of them, and, considering that, when we realized the treaty was altered, I, Silvio, and Vorak were pretty much the only three in the alliance willing to go to bat for you guys anyway, I think three was a decent favor on my part.

So, Ding Dong, we don't want to come off as heroic or honorable, despite the fact that we did as honorable of a thing as we felt we should, under the circumstances. You wanted us to give more, you wanted me to order my soldiers to ZI themselves for you, considering the circumstances? Tough sh*t. The only thing we wanted were allies who acted like they once did, with respect, for themselves and others, and who didn't condescend to us for not leaping at their beck and call. We didn't get our way either.

Despite my harsh words, I really don't dislike many people in your alliances, I really can't say I know many of you. You're embassy has more cobwebs than a spook walk and the ones with the loudest voices seem to be decrying the fact that we aren't your b*tch, so tell me what we're supposed to think? How is HoL supposed to perceive Echelon, their longtime ally and alleged friend, now? I really hope you guys go back to the way you were when 'I' knew you, when HoL knew you... I hope you realize that the few, quiet voices in your alliance that are speaking rationally are doing so for a reason, and that honor is not something you pay for with a casualty count. It's a little more precious than that.

If things had been different, we would still be fighting, and we wouldn't have cared less. You think we care about our infra scores? Send another nuke my way, f*ck it. I won't even respond. Proving the valor of my house is worth any digital price, I've been with some of these guys since before CN was started. But standing blindly alongside a fight we shouldn't even be in, that we might have DECIDED to join under different circumstances, but were COERCED into joining under these circumstances? That I will not do, and I will not require that the nations I am responsible for to do it either.

My name is Blinky969, and if you have any doubts with the way the HoL conducts its business, or the integrity with which our military operates, I would happily settle them, with words, or by whatever other mode you wish to use. I am proud of every man and woman under my command, and if it takes my blood, sweat, and/or infrastructure to defend them from the slanders some of you here perpetuate, say the word. I'm down.

Maybe the next time we talk we can give that 'respect' thing a new go,

His Stateliness, The Honourable Blinky969, Field Marshal, 1st Viscount of the House of Lords
[img]http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/blinky969/BlinkySeal.jpg[/img]

[Agha Petros Elia]

Congrats to FOK

[rikky1116]

Nice terms FOK!
Congrats to both parties involved.
o/

[kriekfreak]

Draconian terms FOK. For shame.

[Xavii]

There is no shame in surrendering to FOK, not many can last against those Dutch commandos.

Great work FOK, and here's to peace! o/

[Otherworld]

Ok.. I'm not that bothered you surrendered after only 4 days of war but... you're blaming us for not knowing what treaty was signed? How the hell is it our fault you didn't read a damn treaty?

You also lecture us about lack of communication but we have always had some people in your IRC channel while you have made approximately 0 attempts to contact us about anything. And as far as not letting you know we were going to war.. it was kept in secret, not even our members knew exactly what we were doing until a day before it happenned. If we had an agression clause as well we would have notified you as it would havew directly involved you.. but we didnt have one so we didnt tell you. Once we were at war though we INSTANTLY told you that you may be required to enter in future.

So if you think we're acting dishonourably because we actually expected you to follow through with a treaty.. then I guess we're guilty.

Congrats on peace though.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Otherworld

[erikz]

[quote name='Otherworld' date='11 February 2010 - 10:57 AM' timestamp='1265882240' post='2174419']
If we had an agression clause as well we would have notified you as it would havew directly involved you.. but we didnt have one so we didnt tell you. Once we were at war though we INSTANTLY told you that you may be required to enter in future.
[/quote]
The not notifying before attacking argument because of an oA-clause is the most ridiculous argument I've seen in this thread. You should have informed all your allies before jumping in the fray, because you must have known that you were going to enter at least 2 days in advance. Also, before making such a decision you should have consulted all of your allies - this is not about notifying actually, its about consulting.

We have a saying in Dutch, describing what you did perfectly: "Mosterd na de maaltijd" [i](Serving the mustard after the meal has been finished)[/i]

Edited February 11, 2010 by erikz

[Otherworld]

No.. I said we didn't notify because we were keeping it secret that we were entering. We didn't tell our whole membership until on the day that we were going to war. Add the fact that we didn't know exactly who we would be declaring on or how involved we would be up until two days before and you have a decent reason for not telling them.

I added the agression clause arguement because if we had one we would have to tell them as they could be directly involved at the start and therefore we would need to tell them. With only a defensive clause they would not be involved for a day at the very minimum (turned out to be 5 days) so by not telling them we were mainting the secrecy in the declaration of war and still give them some notice that they may be required to enter the war.

It's not ideal but if you want to attack somebody without the whole world knowing about it, certain measures need to be taken.

Edited February 11, 2010 by Otherworld

[Eamon]

Firstly 5 cloves of garlic will never be enough to flavour 20 sheep, and where are you planning on getting enough rosemary damnit!