The Coincidence Coalition

[popsumpot]

Nope, Im willing to call Rish an Idiot though... They found out he was doing this crap... nothing at all saying that Hoo, or the rest of RoK had anything to do with it and we didnt... Think what you wish, but liars isnt something you'll find much of on this side... We tend to be pretty up front and brutally honest, even if that makes some people cry themselves to sleep at night.

You know, you should be a used car salesmen. I heard the "just take my word for it" tactic works very well.

[AirMe]

I think you may have quoted the wrong person. My post was responding to Goose's post, and have nothing to do with mocking alliances in peace mode.

Yes, that makes me 2 for 2 in my current streak of fail

[popsumpot]

Yes, that makes me 2 for 2 in my current streak of fail

It's 2:30 am in the morning for me, I would be the last one to grill you for pressing the wrong button

[Tulafaras]

You know, you should be a used car salesmen. I heard the "just take my word for it" tactic works very well.

there isn't any proof possible aside from Hoo's word. Your argument is: "he must have passed information" (without any evidence i might add) and our counter is "no he didn't". If you are not willing to take Hoo's word for it, that is your right and i cannot change your mind, but it doesn't magically transform an unfounded allegation into truth.

Usually the burden of evidence lies on the accuser you know.

As to the other point i was trying to explain to you my train of logic is pretty simple:

One of the defence arguments is that TPF was at war with Athens since they were at war with a part of the Karma coalition (even if they only declared and were counterdeclared on by specific alliances). If we follow that train of logic than the CC has now declared war on Rok making the entire dance to avoid Polar unnecessary.

(Not that i agree with that train of logic. If entire coalitions are suddenly at war without declarations then why are we spamming this board with threads every time a major war happens?)

[Goose]

It does seem that you would wish to pit C&G against TOP. If you think I am taking you out of context, I would appreciate it if you could use your flagrant rhetoric and put that in context for me.

I showed an interest in seeing a C&G/SF war with Cit over a C&G war with SF/Cit. That's about all the context of it.

Everyone has seen those logs already. I just quoted some parts of it which indicated that prominent SF government members wanted to see an NSO/NpO-TOP war.

Which could not possibly be connected to Rish attempting to get NSO and TOP to go to war. No, no way.

You went on to accuse me of having Rish do all the idiotic things he did, completely ignoring the rest of the logs where SF was undecided on where we'd end up if it actually happened. So, please show me where I was running Rish as an instigator to start a war between NSO and TOP. You continue to insinuate that it was the case. I'm calling you a liar for it. So, please either show some proof or stop your moronic insistence that this was a plot by me or SF.

[popsumpot]

Perhaps so, but you are not going to get a better resolution to the war than you were offered last night. It is not a case of 'take the infra hugging option', but a case of 'take the best possible resolution to the situation'. All that will happen now is your allies will fight, billions of dollars of damages will be done and TPF and their allies will all have to pay large reparations and will be set back in their development for a long time.

You are correct. However, judging by the way this war was initiated, I would think that the resolution of the current war will hardly prevent another war of the exact same nature in the foreseeable future.

We believe that someone is gunning for us, and that if we would have to take a stand at some point in the future, it might as well be now.

[Galapagos]

During negotiations, of course. You hilarious hypocrites.

All this lunacy from MK about war being declared during peace negotions is hilarious.

How short are your memories? You blazed this trail.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Galapagos

[popsumpot]

there isn't any proof possible aside from Hoo's word. Your argument is: "he must have passed information" (without any evidence i might add) and our counter is "no he didn't". If you are not willing to take Hoo's word for it, that is your right and i cannot change your mind, but it doesn't magically transform an unfounded allegation into truth.

Usually the burden of evidence lies on the accuser you know.

As to the other point i was trying to explain to you my train of logic is pretty simple:

One of the defence arguments is that TPF was at war with Athens since they were at war with a part of the Karma coalition (even if they only declared and were counterdeclared on by specific alliances). If we follow that train of logic than the CC has now declared war on Rok making the entire dance to avoid Polar unnecessary.

(Not that i agree with that train of logic. If entire coalitions are suddenly at war without declarations then why are we spamming this board with threads every time a major war happens?)

Alliances are responsible for the memberships. Wars have been fought (with considerable support) when a spy was discovered, regardless of their standing within their alliance. In this case, it is someone in the high government, and we are now talking aboutu Alliances are responsible for the actions of their government

Athens and Co declared war on TPF with the CB that TPF has spied. That does not mean the act of spying automatically activates a state of war between the two parties. The alliances that have been spied on have been wronged yes, but it is their prerogative to do as they please. They certainly have a very valid CB, but what they do with it is another matter altogether.

[erikz]

All this lunacy from MK about war being declared during peace negotions is hilarious.

How short are your memories? You blazed this trail.

There were negotiations just before/around update. Then you declared.

[AirMe]

All this lunacy from MK about war being declared during peace negotions is hilarious.

How short are your memories? You blazed this trail.

Excuse me but what? When has MK ever attacked in the middle of negotiations? You sir are also a liar.

[zzzptm]

All this lunacy from MK about war being declared during peace negotions is hilarious.

How short are your memories? You blazed this trail.

I think Coyote stole your tongue. Better run quick and go get it from him!

[mike717]

As to the other point i was trying to explain to you my train of logic is pretty simple:

One of the defence arguments is that TPF was at war with Athens since they were at war with a part of the Karma coalition (even if they only declared and were counterdeclared on by specific alliances). If we follow that train of logic than the CC has now declared war on Rok making the entire dance to avoid Polar unnecessary.

(Not that i agree with that train of logic. If entire coalitions are suddenly at war without declarations then why are we spamming this board with threads every time a major war happens?)

Or, that line of reasoning is simply being used against you, seeing as how if you DID try to get polar into this war through Rok you would be giant hypocrites and your CB would be even flimsier than it is.

Edited January 2, 2010 by mike717

[Galapagos]

There were negotiations just before/around update. Then you declared.

I believe I remember NPO having a very similar complaint against Karma last Spring, no?

[popsumpot]

There were negotiations just before/around update. Then you declared.

Excuse me but what? When has MK ever attacked in the middle of negotiations? You sir are also a liar.

I think Coyote stole your tongue. Better run quick and go get it from him!

I think he refers to the lack of diplomacy before the sneak attack on TPF. If this is not so, then I'm afraid to inform you sir that it was NPO that declared war during peace negotiations, not Karma.

[Lenex]

there isn't any proof possible aside from Hoo's word. Your argument is: "he must have passed information" (without any evidence i might add) and our counter is "no he didn't". If you are not willing to take Hoo's word for it, that is your right and i cannot change your mind, but it doesn't magically transform an unfounded allegation into truth.

Usually the burden of evidence lies on the accuser you know.

As to the other point i was trying to explain to you my train of logic is pretty simple:

One of the defence arguments is that TPF was at war with Athens since they were at war with a part of the Karma coalition (even if they only declared and were counterdeclared on by specific alliances). If we follow that train of logic than the CC has now declared war on Rok making the entire dance to avoid Polar unnecessary.

(Not that i agree with that train of logic. If entire coalitions are suddenly at war without declarations then why are we spamming this board with threads every time a major war happens?)

I think you expect too much from people, your asking them to think.

[Galapagos]

I think he refers to the lack of diplomacy before the sneak attack on TPF. If this is not so, then I'm afraid to inform you sir that it was NPO that declared war during peace negotiations, not Karma.

Ah, that is what I was referring to. I thought it was the other way around.

Well, there goes my argument downt he toilet.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Galapagos

[popsumpot]

I think you expect too much from people, your asking them to think.

Alliances are responsible for the memberships. Wars have been fought (with considerable support) when a spy was discovered, regardless of their standing within their alliance. In this case, it is someone in the high government, and we are now talking aboutu Alliances are responsible for the actions of their government

Athens and Co declared war on TPF with the CB that TPF has spied. That does not mean the act of spying automatically activates a state of war between the two parties. The alliances that have been spied on have been wronged yes, but it is their prerogative to do as they please. They certainly have a very valid CB, but what they do with it is another matter altogether.

I'm asking you to read.

[Keres]

All this lunacy from MK about war being declared during peace negotions is hilarious.

How short are your memories? You blazed this trail.

Wasnt it NPO on Ov? wow id like to see that hegemony war playbook

1. Attack during Negotiations

2. Find Bogus dirt and expose it to the world, even without proof

3. Use Spies to destroy alliances from the inside if Defeat is imminent

4. Dont directly attack the alliances you are fighting with, this will make you look good, instead find an alliances in the same coalition and destroy it

5. Alliances who dont agree with you, want you dead, as such you must kill them first, completely...

6. Priotect your infra, as such do not declare too quickly, If at all possible wait for point #1

[Haflinger]

You went on to accuse me of having Rish do all the idiotic things he did

No, I didn't. Please read my post again, wearing more convential headgear.

[Tulafaras]

Alliances are responsible for the memberships. Wars have been fought (with considerable support) when a spy was discovered, regardless of their standing within their alliance. In this case, it is someone in the high government, and we are now talking aboutu Alliances are responsible for the actions of their government

Athens and Co declared war on TPF with the CB that TPF has spied. That does not mean the act of spying automatically activates a state of war between the two parties. The alliances that have been spied on have been wronged yes, but it is their prerogative to do as they please. They certainly have a very valid CB, but what they do with it is another matter altogether.

seriously how often do we need to repeat that he was NOT in high goverment before you actually read and understand this point?

Yes a number of wars have been declared due to spying CBs usually with a high amount of drama connected to it, since it is very hard to prove those CBs. In this case we have 2 situations who both at one point are connected to spying. Now let's compare them (since that is what you are doing):

Situation 1: A single member of an alliance who may or may not have gone rogue (impossible to prove after the fact) has infiltrated a different alliance, after first ghosting a different AA and trying to raise problems with another alliance (which sounds like the actions of a rogue to me, not like someone trying to remain in the game afterwards). There is no proof he passed anything on, and because he was not only a bit stupid but rather very stupid he even got himself removed from Planet Bob.

In reply to this entire mess the leader of his ex-alliance has stepped forward and apologized.

Situation 2: A leader of an alliance orders a number of his members to resign from his alliance and form a splinter group. They are then supposed to integrate themselves into a different alliance and then subvert / sabotage the alliance through internal strife. The idea behind it is that the targeted alliance is open to merging other alliances into their core. The plan is called off after the initial stage has been implemented because of a break between the splinter group and their home alliance. Instead of taking any steps to clean up the mess the leader who started this !@#$ sweeps it under a rug and hopes he never hears from it again.

Once the mess comes out (as all messes inevitably do) instead of apologizing or admitting that he might have acted rashly he posts a thread with shorted logs and tries to explain it all as a wartime tactic (even if he never was at war with the targeted alliance).

Now be honest, do these situations sound in any way similar?

[Galapagos]

Wasnt it NPO on Ov? wow id like to see that hegemony war playbook

1. Attack during Negotiations

2. Find Bogus dirt and expose it to the world, even without proof

3. Use Spies to destroy alliances from the inside if Defeat is imminent

4. Dont directly attack the alliances you are fighting with, this will make you look good, instead find an alliances in the same coalition and destroy it

5. Alliances who dont agree with you, want you dead, as such you must kill them first, completely...

6. Priotect your infra, as such do not declare too quickly, If at all possible wait for point #1

A little late there, quoting a post that's been replied to and acknowledged since then.

Really though, RoK can't complain about anybody spying, ever. You're just opening yourself up to ridicule.

[Priest Kahn]

I believe I remember NPO having a very similar complaint against Karma last Spring, no?

An excellent view on history, to be sure.

[shilo]

There were negotiations just before/around update. Then you declared.

When some of them attempt to talk to TPF minutes before attacks are coming in (the ones CC have been mocked for not getting in earlier) with no offer acceptable, and when TPF thus walks out of peace negotiations, then that's not attacking during peace negotiations, that's attacking right after they ended with one party realizing the aggressors were at best stalling for time, or likely trying to get some propaganda material.

Like what you are trying to use now.

[Galapagos]

An excellent view on history, to be sure.

Quoting one element of a post. Nice.

[AirMe]

This discussion really isn't about Rish......