Announcement from the desk of the custodial engineer third class

[Tick1]

Oops okay, let me extend that thank you then to all visible and non visible parties aiding us.

Jack you are like the guy that didn't get his name put into the credits because you are a stuntman.

[ChimpMasterFlash]

And honestly, if he were a rogue, and we overreacted, then you'd have thought they would have demanded reps and allowed us to enact revenge on such a rogue. A sane alliance would have, and would have piled on the rogue themselves.

Not tell their alliance to pile on us.

The only way what you say would make any sense is if you declared war on the GOONS member that attacked which seems now to be what you are implying?

I'm curious, because when I read that OP I read it as RLMMO-Alliance declaring war on KRONOS-alliance and GOONS-alliance. But again it seems your augment is based on you declaring a very poorly worded DoW against one GOON?

I'm just trying to come to grasp your side honestly. It is so far off in left field I cannot help to think something other than the OP should have written the post. Would be sad if an alliance was rolled over a miscommunication because of a Chimpmasterflash ^tmstyle post. (legendary typo and illiterate poster)

Edited December 5, 2009 by ChimpMasterFlash

[Lunchbox]

To put it simply the raids by goons, and kronos where seen by rlmmo as an act of war.

Not sure what is so confusing about what is says.

"We see that a couple of nations from the Kronos Alliance have decided to bring war to a member nation of RLMMO.

We accept your war. Your citizens shall be sacrificed for your arrogance.

We also see that a member of the Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism has also attacked one of our members, so we also accept your war.

Enjoy the glow from our nukes. RLMMO defense policy is well known, we don't accept "tech raids". We only participate in nation destroying war.

Surrender terms are simple, once we hurt your alliance we'll get bored and leave you alone again.

"

It pretty much says we accept your well unwritten declaration of war against us.

[Biazt]

To put it simply the raids by goons, and kronos where seen by rlmmo as an act of war.

Not sure what is so confusing about what is says.

"We see that a couple of nations from the Kronos Alliance have decided to bring war to a member nation of RLMMO.

We accept your war. Your citizens shall be sacrificed for your arrogance.

We also see that a member of the Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism has also attacked one of our members, so we also accept your war.

Enjoy the glow from our nukes. RLMMO defense policy is well known, we don't accept "tech raids". We only participate in nation destroying war.

Surrender terms are simple, once we hurt your alliance we'll get bored and leave you alone again.

"

It pretty much says we accept your well unwritten declaration of war against us.

There's no one arguing this point. We just think it's stupid.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Biazt

[Biazt]

Biazt would you please drop that point. If every nation the GOONS raided fought back, raiding would get old extremely quick. It's a known fact that you'll get worn down with all of the fighting. Waring is tiresome even on the winning side, which is why a halt to most wars are called.

Edit: I also speak on behalf of my virtual opinion on raiding. I've raided for the last two years on this nation plus the extra year before I re-rolled. I know warring gets tiresome, especially on the losing side. I grow tired of raiding when it deems non-profitable seeing as I'm a capitalist. Which is why I now look for the best profit when raiding rather than any target available.

Well, for one thing, not all nations raid only for profits. Secondly, unless this "brave" declaration of war on GOONS causes every nation we're raiding to suddenly get nukes and make raiding unprofitable, this war will change nothing. GOONS will continue to raid.

OOC: Where you been man I never see you on IRC anymore?

Edited December 5, 2009 by Biazt

[Tick1]

Definitions

Raid - Military. A sudden attack on the enemy, as by air or by a small land force.

War - a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other.

The definition of war is only used when two nations use military actions, technically it's considered a raid until the nation being raided attacks back. What would the dictionary know though, it's just book.

Yes, I do agree with RLMMO's actions and I don't discourage them to believe in their method. I'm only pointing out the definitions to actually entice a debate.

Edit: Grammar

Edited December 5, 2009 by Tick1

[Tick1]

Well, for one thing, not all nations raid only for profits. Secondly, unless this "brave" declaration of war on GOONS causes every nation we're raiding to suddenly get nukes and make raiding unprofitable, this war will change nothing. GOONS will continue to raid.

Biazt, it is changing the opinions of the ones involved in the war though. While it may not change your alliance's whole opinion on raiding it will eventually overcome the individuals.

Edit:Grammar

Edited December 5, 2009 by Tick1

[ChimpMasterFlash]

To put it simply the raids by goons, and kronos where seen by rlmmo as an act of war.

Not sure what is so confusing about what is says.

"We see that a couple of nations from the Kronos Alliance have decided to bring war to a member nation of RLMMO.

We accept your war. Your citizens shall be sacrificed for your arrogance.

We also see that a member of the Goon Order of Oppression Negligence and Sadism has also attacked one of our members, so we also accept your war.

Enjoy the glow from our nukes. RLMMO defense policy is well known, we don't accept "tech raids". We only participate in nation destroying war.

Surrender terms are simple, once we hurt your alliance we'll get bored and leave you alone again.

"

It pretty much says we accept your well unwritten declaration of war against us.

super, ZDP had a decent point of view last night but you just nullified that. Thanks for the clarification. Enjoy parking lot status.

Edit* pretty confusing to anyone above a middle school reading level & has played CN for any length of time. Carry on!

Edited December 5, 2009 by ChimpMasterFlash

[Biazt]

Definitions

Raid - Military. A sudden attack on the enemy, as by air or by a small land force.

War - a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations: The two nations were at war with each other.

The definition of war is only used when two nations use military actions, technically it's considered a raid until the nation being raided attacks back. What would the dictionary know though, it's just book.

Yes, I do agree with RLMMO's actions and I don't discourage them to believe in their method. I'm only pointing out the definitions to actually entice a debate.

Edit: Grammar

The dictionary meaning for raid and how it's used in CN's is not the same. You can't apply it in this context.

Biazt, it is changing the opinions of the ones involved in the war though. While it may not change your alliance's whole opinion on raiding it will eventually overcome the individuals.

Edit:Grammar

I highly doubt any GOONS nations are now discouraged from tech raiding...this is a healthy reprieve from the recent boredom. This is especially helpful for the newest members we have, some action to keep them interested.

[Sardonic]

And to add some have asked why we dont have a protectorate or any treaties. Well its simple most alliances dont like our growth or social communication policy as an alliance one of the reasons TOP dropped us way back when.

I'm honestly curious, what on bob do you participate in that makes you so unattractive to potential protectorate givers?

Edited December 5, 2009 by Sardonic

[lamuella]

They escalated the war by recognizing a state of war existed between your alliance and theirs?

They escalated the war by treating a raid action by a single member as a war by the entire alliance.

They hadn't even attacked you, not a single member.

Doesn't matter. They told us they were at war with our entire alliance and issued surrender terms.

Their escalation was a couple of words here on the OWFs saying they will fight you tooth and nail and make this enterprise not worth it for you. It's like Athens escalated the raid to a war when they told Grub to bring it. That is when I approached you about a peace, and was told no, we like war.

you approached us. they never did. Had they given you power of attorney? If not, the opinion of you as a longnosed outsider was worth bugger all.

I like war too, so I have no issue with that, but your escalation from a raid to a war by RLMMO seems a bit much, since the most aggressive action that had taken place to this point, besides people talking tought, was your alliances permitting an alliance member to raid another alliance.

the most aggressive action that had taken place at this point was a declaration of war on our entire alliance, a declaration filled with langauage like this: "Your citizens shall be sacrificed for your arrogance", "enjoy the glow from our nukes", "surrender terms are simple, once we hurt your alliance we'll get bored and leave you alone again."

as has been proven by past precedent we've been quite reasonable about conflict resolution over raid actions in the past. What we're not at all reasonable about is roaring mice screaming blood and thunder and acting like tough guys in public while they get their friends to approach us in private and demand peace.

As for your second point, they came in as optional aggression or optional defense since you entered the war first..

No, they came in as mutual defense against the attack on my alliance by your alliance. Is the reason your alliance holds no treaties because you don't understand how treaties work? No matter what went on before, you declared war yesterday.

You started this war after all, wither they talked to you or not after doing their tough talk doesn't change the fact that you authorized your members under your charter and your goverment to attack another alliance. That is war. Wiether you declare one war or 50 wars you authorized attacks on another alliance, and that is an act of war. At least that is how I see it.

Why do you keep talking about the war with RLMMO, when right now we're talking about the GOONS / ZDP war, a war that you started?

I understand the NpO may see it different but that doesn't change why to me it is hardly revisionism.

it's exactly revisionism. NpO's support is nothing to do with tech raiding and everything to do with a declared war on an ally by an outside party. You're failing to accept that the GOONS / RLMMO war and the GOONS / ZDP war are discrete entities.

You athorize tech raids on 15 man alliances, Athens did against 40 man alliances, and as far as I can tell NpO is willing to defend one but completely outraged by the other, and while I'm sure they will justify it somehow in the end it simply comes down to having to support your allies.

as I keep pointing out, NpO are uninvolved in the war against RLMMO, which is the war that has something to do with tech raiding. They are instead involved in the war against ZDP, which is the war that has something to do with you sticking your oar into other people's business.

This will greatly reduce the damage you guys take and furthurmore hardly demonstrate if smaller alliances and their allies going balls out will be a test to prove anything, as I'm sure if Athens had resistance from the alliance they authorized tech raids on, I'm sure the NpO would not have backed down in their retoric against Athens.

do you need a tissue?

[Tick1]

The dictionary meaning for raid and how it's used in CN's is not the same. You can't apply it in this context.

Actually I can use the definition of raid in this scenario. You say you are tech raiding a nation which means you are assaulting or attacking a nation too seize his loot. Which my definition is also a raid.

I highly doubt any GOONS nations are now discouraged from tech raiding...this is a healthy reprieve from the recent boredom. This is especially helpful for the newest members we have, some action to keep them interested.

Did I ever say raiding wasn't a way to reprieve them of their boredom? I'm saying over time it would slowly grow dull and the cost of losing their nation will outweigh the fun they have raiding.

[lamuella]

You can't tell your alliance mate that he has the authority to attack xyz person, then simply wash your hands of that decision to give him the right.

we don't tell him he has the security to do anything. Raiders are well aware that if they bite off more than they can chew they will get no help from us.

[lamuella]

I asked Lazerc if GOONS allowed Nizzle to attack, if he had done anything wrong in your eyes, the answer was a flat no. Your goverment believed he had commited no wrong, if you want I can give you the logs in private. I was not insulting, I was not offensive, I made it clear what ZDP's position was,

a) Was this acceptable behaviour in the eyes of GOONS, answer Yes.

B) Is there a chance for peace? Answer No.

the problem is that you asked this after our entire alliance had been declared upon.

Of course we closed ranks around him at this point. It's tribalism. We see a difference between people attacking one of our members who had done something unwise and people attacking our alliance as a whole.

As I keep pointing out, the blame lies squarely with RLMMO for their pitifully bad handling of the issue. Had they been more diplomatic (and I will point out that to my knowledge they have never approached us through diplomatic channels about anything at all) this could have been over days ago.

[philp110]

We had a plan.

"If some moronic alliance raids us we do as much damage as we can to them and make them pay for every ounce of tech they take"

And honestly, now that all the attackers have been nuked, mission accomplished. If I get the chance to nuke another tomorrow... it's a great day. They've paid in blood and treasure much more than what they've gained.

I was one of the original three tech raiders. I have not been nuked yet. I'm going to make an assumption that New Robonia of MX131 will nuke me today, though.

And it IS a great day - a radioactive and bloody day.

[Reachwind]

If that was indeed the meaning it is the worst written and most ambiguous DoW in the history of BoB.

But in context it states "WE" accept your war speaking as an alliance to the audience who is thought to also be an alliance. In which case is a DoW on GOONS the alliance not the nation with in GOONS.

last post I swear...until I post again.

Couple of points, RLMMO has still not made any attacks agaisnt the GOONs. Also, we did not declare war on any alliance, we acknowledged a state of war.

The declaration of war by GOONs on RLMMO was made by Nizzle in the name of GOONs. If you did not want a war with RLMMO you could have simply told us he was no longer a member. By attacking us in force you confirmed that Nizzle's declaration of war was legitimate.

Kronos on the other hand attacked with two nation which is why they were immediately attacked in response.

Kind of sad to see my former Polar brothers on the side of my enemy, but meh. What can you do?

[Eden Taylor]

Couple of points, RLMMO has still not made any attacks agaisnt the GOONs. Also, we did not declare war on any alliance, we acknowledged a state of war.

The declaration of war by GOONs on RLMMO was made by Nizzle in the name of GOONs. If you did not want a war with RLMMO you could have simply told us he was no longer a member. By attacking us in force you confirmed that Nizzle's declaration of war was legitimate.

Kronos on the other hand attacked with two nation which is why they were immediately attacked in response.

Kind of sad to see my former Polar brothers on the side of my enemy, but meh. What can you do?

How has this discussion continued for so long in the face of such a determined inability/unwillingness to understand?

edit: grammar

Edited December 5, 2009 by Eden Taylor

[lamuella]

Couple of points, RLMMO has still not made any attacks agaisnt the GOONs. Also, we did not declare war on any alliance, we acknowledged a state of war.

Legal quibbling. There was no state of war between our alliances until your post.

The declaration of war by GOONs on RLMMO was made by Nizzle in the name of GOONs.

Really? Point me to where a) Nizzle was empowered to make war in our name and b) nizzle said he was making war in our name

If you did not want a war with RLMMO you could have simply told us he was no longer a member.

If you had approached us through diplomatic channels, who knows what could have happened. Instead you escalated the conflict.

By attacking us in force you confirmed that Nizzle's declaration of war was legitimate.

No, all we confirmed was that if you declare on GOONS, we will do something about it.

Kind of sad to see my former Polar brothers on the side of my enemy, but meh. What can you do?

here's what you can do:

In future, if someone raids a member of your alliance, talk to the alliance first and work out what the situation is, rather than huffing and puffing and screaming about nuking people like a giant baby.

[janax]

Kronos on the other hand attacked with two nation which is why they were immediately attacked in response.

One nation flying the Kronos AA

One nation GHOSTING the Kronos Applicant AA.

Had you ever asked, you'd have known this. At the time White Majik attacked, he was going through our application process. He has since switched to elsewhere, as we don't raid.

Of course, if someone decides to raid us, we'd ask about it first. It's common sense, even if we decided to retaliate.

[shayde]

Legal quibbling. There was no state of war between our alliances until your post.

Bottom line... a nation in good standing with your alliance declared war on our nation. That in itself is a declaration of war.

Then when said nation made a post saying they're not going to stand for it (and not yet made any further attacks), more members of your alliance jumped in, and Kronos did too.

When Nizzy punched the "Declare war" button, he started hostile actions against RLMMO. When the attacked nation complained, everyone else dogpiled.

RLMMO is only defensing themselves against cyber-bullies. Defending yourself is the right of any nation. You only claim we aren't following YOUR rules. Well, those are worthless.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Shayde

[lamuella]

Bottom line... a nation in good standing with your alliance declared war on our nation. That in itself is a declaration of war.

and your response was not to come to us and work out a resolution but to excalate things to an alliance-wide war.

Then when said nation made a post saying they're not going to stand for it (and not yet made any further attacks), more members of your alliance jumped in, and Kronos did too.

Nizzy's war was against MX131. MX131 did not make a post. The leader of your alliance did. You need to start figuring out the difference between an alliance and a nation.

When Nizzy punched the "Declare war" button, he started hostile actions against RLMMO. When the attacked nation complained, everyone else dogpiled.

1) Nizzy started hostile actions on his own behalf against MX131, not RLMMO

2) MX131 did not post here. Reachwind did, and his post essentially declared war on our alliance.

3) We reacted to a declaration of war by your alliance.

RLMMO is only defensing themselves against cyber-bullies.

RLMMO leapt straight to alliance-wide nuclear war rather than trying diplomacy. We are only responding in kind.

Defending yourself is the right of any nation.

quite right, so when your alliance as a whole declared war on my alliance as a whole, we defended ourselves.

[ScottyBoomSnick]

How long is everyone going to argue over this? RLMMO sees it one way, and Kronos see it another way.

The actual bottom line is that Kronos is currently dismantling your alliance while you beat your head against the wall arguing over definitions. Since you obviously can't change anyone's mind with your e-lawyering, maybe you should spend your time perfecting the wording of your alliance's upcoming surrender.

[Tick1]

How long is everyone going to argue over this? RLMMO sees it one way, and Kronos see it another way.

The actual bottom line is that Kronos is currently dismantling your alliance while you beat your head against the wall arguing over definitions. Since you obviously can't change anyone's mind with your e-lawyering, maybe you should spend your time perfecting the wording of your alliance's upcoming surrender.

Why do you post if you are decimating their armies? Does it make you feel better to know that you can destroy a fifteen man alliance? Maybe you should show more respect to people and their opinions instead of berating them on the open world forums.

[lamuella]

personally, I'm happy to debate the issue. It's only through talking that we can better understand one another.

[Tick1]

personally, I'm happy to debate the issue. It's only through talking that we can better understand one another.

I don't recall to many members of Kronos actually debating in any of their post, but then again I don't recall to many of them posting. Maybe all they know are actions and not words. Insulting someone is one thing, debating is another concept.