A question

[Haflinger]

See: If there were multitudes of rulers committing terrible crimes against your alliance...

Also, just to get this straight, six is six too many.

There are a lot of alliances, including former Karma members, who kept more than six. But eh.

I just wish people would let up on the rhetoric for five seconds and actually read what is being said and respond to it, rather than inventing something else to reply to.

[Vilien]

There are a lot of alliances, including former Karma members, who kept more than six. But eh.

I just wish people would let up on the rhetoric for five seconds and actually read what is being said and respond to it, rather than inventing something else to reply to.

I see that skipping over an entire post to right a perceived error in the number of EZI'd nations is not inventing something else to reply to.

[Bob Janova]

When those alliances make a statement they never did it, feel free to call them out on that as well. I think the argument about EZI is pretty much won (all the major Hegemony culprits stopped with high profile announcements before the war, and few in Karma ever did it – GOD is the only one I can think of), it's the telling of a clear untruth that the OP has picked up on here. As I said though, if it wasn't for the NPO posters and yourself in this thread, it would have died by now.

[Haflinger]

When those alliances make a statement they never did it, feel free to call them out on that as well. I think the argument about EZI is pretty much won (all the major Hegemony culprits stopped with high profile announcements before the war, and few in Karma ever did it – GOD is the only one I can think of), it's the telling of a clear untruth that the OP has picked up on here. As I said though, if it wasn't for the NPO posters and yourself in this thread, it would have died by now.

See, here's the thing. Apart from VE, they don't. Mostly they just make "Do something about it" posts.

[Bob Janova]

They don't what?

[Branimir]

and Haflinger, who seems to be NPO-by-proxy lately

Yes, because if someone can see and understand our point of view, then he is our "extended hand", "puppet", "meatshield", etc.

Only logical conclusion, right? He can not be of his own mind,...

I was on a bit of a pause from this place, as nothing is happening or will for some time it seems, but glad to see gibberish and nonsense still rule supreme. Carry on now men, also my plea to that ginger guy still stands

Edited September 13, 2009 by Branimir

[Cortath]

Well Cortath has reverted to attempting to justify EZI, which rather shows that the initial attempt to show that Moo didn't lie about never having done it has failed. I think we can leave it there; it wasn't a big deal when he made that post and it wouldn't be a big deal now, if NPO (and Haflinger, who seems to be NPO-by-proxy lately) didn't try to defend it.

I don't agree with practicing what you call "EZI." It's bad politics, and I'm far more clever than that, Bob Janova, as I think you know. *chuckles*

But it amuses me that many among you can't possibly fathom that there would be people who continue to attack us across nations. We had many nations across the years who would say, nuke the Emperor, get ZIed, build up a nation, and do it again. We had many nations across the years who would join our alliance, spy on us, be kicked out, ZIed, re-roll, and do it again.

That you cannot fathom that such a thing could occur and/or that an alliance would be justified in taking actions against those people speaks far more to those who oppose the NPO.

[Bob Janova]

As Syzygy said in the VE thread (I was looking through it earlier), that's really not a problem. They nuke you, do a few tens of millions in damage (Moo's at pretty low infra anyway due to being a prime rogue and war target), and get deleted on their way to ZI ... and it takes them many months to get back up to nuke range. The small material loss for not EZIing that person is more than offset by the political gain from saying you never do it.

But like I said in a previous post, it's not really about whether EZI is justifiable or not. It's that Moo said that the NPO never did it, which is clearly false, and all it takes to kill the thread is to admit that it was false but that you don't agree with it any more.

[Jyrinx]

I don't agree with practicing what you call "EZI." It's bad politics, and I'm far more clever than that, Bob Janova, as I think you know. *chuckles*

But it amuses me that many among you can't possibly fathom that there would be people who continue to attack us across nations. We had many nations across the years who would say, nuke the Emperor, get ZIed, build up a nation, and do it again. We had many nations across the years who would join our alliance, spy on us, be kicked out, ZIed, re-roll, and do it again.

That you cannot fathom that such a thing could occur and/or that an alliance would be justified in taking actions against those people speaks far more to those who oppose the NPO.

We can indeed fathom that such a thing could occur. Hence why nobody is saying that; if someone rerolls and is hostile towards you, you're justified in attacking them. That you cannot fathom, though, that not every reroll is a hostile threat and should be summarily destroyed simply for revealing their previous identity speaks far more about you and the NPO.

This is becoming pointless; you're just dodging now with rhetoric thinking that we can't see that you're dodging. I give up.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Jyrinx

[Griskard]

Just as a point, as a good friend of spearo/spetton, I can point out that at the time of CIS destruction, not only was he in no way hostile, he was avoiding letting who he was be publicly found out. The only way NPO found out who he was, was via spying, a practice they actively deny.

[A Soviet Attack]

Just dropping in to say that spetton/spearo didn't do anything against Pacifica after re-rolling, so claim that re-rolls would only be targeted if they got up to their old tricks... Well it's not going to fly.

Also, 5 pages, nice.

Edit: And I guess Griskard got there first, ah well.

Edited September 14, 2009 by A Soviet Attack

[Griskard]

Yeah, Im good like that.

But anyway, noone can argue that spearo/spetton was even a remotely good reason for attacking the CIS. To me it seems like someone had a war itch to scratch or something. Annoyed after you couldn't get rid of us in the Veridicide?

/me goes to bed to avoid reading replys

[Penkala]

Honestly, I think this is not a case of revisionism but rather isolationism. NPO has always used terms differently than other alliances do, and the term EZI was coined outside them. They never really understood what was meant by it.

And here I'm just speaking as an interpreter, as a guy who in the past has needed to translate between NPO-speak and Bob-speak. Heh.

They didn't keep a permazi list as separate from a ZI list. Their practice was to keep target lists, and keep people at war until they were removed from the target lists. Other alliances keep ZI lists where War staff would automatically remove them when ZI had been achieved, or when the nation had been abandoned, or whatever. This is the fundamental problem; they didn't define a particular end condition for a nation to be removed from a target list. So some nations were kept on for a long time. Others came off very quickly.

This practice was in effect EZI, in some cases, but the basis behind it was different: they didn't sentence nations to ZI/PZI/EZI the way some alliances did (like GGA), but rather ordered attacks on nations, with no defined objective.

Seeing as Dilber told me they had "around 9 or 10" I believe was the quote on PZI and EZI LISTS combined, "Mostly Vox and BC members"... I don't know, maybe he meant they wouldn't be removed for a very long time and were on the target list or maybe he meant something else. If anyone from RIA would be willing to go to the NPO embassy and to the Q&A thread shortly before the war it's in there somewhere. Maybe someone could post his quote?

[kenny]

Just dropping in to say that spetton/spearo didn't do anything against Pacifica after re-rolling, so claim that re-rolls would only be targeted if they got up to their old tricks... Well it's not going to fly.

Also, 5 pages, nice.

Edit: And I guess Griskard got there first, ah well.

congrats you have got your fill of attention for the week i hope and refreshed everyones minds that we are the evil NPO.

next week soviet will remind you all that we once stood by GGA while they threatened other alliances to get off green, but oh wait! heres the real kicker they were just trying to be like there idols at the time the imperialistic overlords the tyranical NPO!

Till the next pointless NPO topic since noone wants to get over us, i bid you good night.

[A Soviet Attack]

congrats you have got your fill of attention for the week i hope and refreshed everyones minds that we are the evil NPO.

next week soviet will remind you all that we once stood by GGA while they threatened other alliances to get off green, but oh wait! heres the real kicker they were just trying to be like there idols at the time the imperialistic overlords the tyranical NPO!

Till the next pointless NPO topic since noone wants to get over us, i bid you good night.

Yeah, I'm an attention whore. Nice job buddy. If it was pointless, it wouldn't be 5 pages long. Amongst other things, this thread has proven that NPO are still incapable of admitting error.

[Locke]

Yeah, I'm an attention whore. Nice job buddy. If it was pointless, it wouldn't be 5 pages long. Amongst other things, this thread has proven that NPO are still incapable of admitting error.

To be fair, there are a lot of pointless threads that get well beyond page 5.

[Cortath]

Yeah, I'm an attention whore. Nice job buddy. If it was pointless, it wouldn't be 5 pages long. Amongst other things, this thread has proven that NPO are still incapable of admitting error.

Reading is hard. Try again.

[A Soviet Attack]

Reading is hard. Try again.

Funny, I didn't see any admission in this thread that Moo lied (which he did). I didn't get a lot of sleep last night so my reading comprehension isn't at a great level right now; maybe I'm wrong.

On the other hand, assuming that there was no admission, maybe you should learn to stop displaying blind and misplaced arrogance when you're clearly in the wrong, and everyone other than yourself can see it.

[sammykhalifa]

Yeah, Im good like that.

But anyway, noone can argue that spearo/spetton was even a remotely good reason for attacking the CIS. To me it seems like someone had a war itch to scratch or something. Annoyed after you couldn't get rid of us in the Veridicide?

/me goes to bed to avoid reading replys

Yeah, Spetton was never anything but a good citizen. He DID leave his old role behind. I know we never come to that point, but when that's the whole center of the Pacific argument that they didn't practice this it just doesn't go away. The only reason the rerolled nation issue ever came up was because of one small man (spy) with an axe to grind. It's amazing to me that people are arguing otherwise to this day.

Edited September 14, 2009 by sammykhalifa

[Cortath]

Funny, I didn't see any admission in this thread that Moo lied (which he did). I didn't get a lot of sleep last night so my reading comprehension isn't at a great level right now; maybe I'm wrong.

On the other hand, assuming that there was no admission, maybe you should learn to stop displaying blind and misplaced arrogance when you're clearly in the wrong, and everyone other than yourself can see it.

Moo didn't lie. I did admit that I disagreed with the practice.

And you, sir, should stop lying. I see my arrogance just fine, thank you.

[sammykhalifa]

next week soviet will remind you all that we once stood by GGA while they threatened other alliances to get off green, but oh wait! heres the real kicker they were just trying to be like there idols at the time the imperialistic overlords the tyranical NPO!

Just admit that you attacked CIS because they canceled a treaty with you and it ticked you off: I bet that that would a long way towards keeping it from coming up again and again. It's the arrogant, flimsy justification that keeps this thing alive.

Edited September 14, 2009 by sammykhalifa