Dynomite Pact's CB for Prolonging our War

[Erich Ludendorff]

Well since you don't seen to know what i'm talking about. Every week or so there seems to be a problem in the OWF which warrants long arguments. Now at this point, the CN community at large either agrees or disagrees with the OP and/or subsiquential discussions. I was refering to a theory I have that certain groups of people feel that everyone should play with their CN moral system and their idea of right an wrong. Within this game, there are over 20,000 nations. Within this game there are hundreds of alliances. You will have 1 situation, and there will be 10 different viewpoints within minutes.

What i'm trying to say is there is no certain definition of what is right and wrong. You trying to fight this like something will change only amuses me. It doesn't make me want to go to my alliance and write up a set of rules based on "what sal paradise would do" or "what HeinousOne would do". Just as if you saw me in an arguement, you wouldn't go to your alliance and say "what would CptGodzilla do."

Moral of the story? Nothing within MA is going to change unless our members make it happen. Nothing is going to happen to AJ until he breaks the rules. Your attempt to smear our PR is slightly irritating (like when your eye twitches but you can't stop it) at best. Give up the morality parade and go back to trying to better your alliance, it will be more effective and make you feel better in the end.

So opinions shouldn't be posted about and debated in the OWF? What would you suggest we use the OWF for?

[CptGodzilla]

So opinions shouldn't be posted about and debated in the OWF? What would you suggest we use the OWF for?

I don't care when people post their opinions on the OWF. What bothers me is when they take it past OWF to talk to multiple governing officials of an alliance after a statement has already been made in the thread. Also, obviously some people are more concerned for taking down the PR of alliances (read: HeinousOne telling me he frowns on log dumping but was going to take an exception to me) than just posting their opinion.

[KaitlinK]

You are now officially placed on my PZI list. I hope we can work out a peaceful solution. The nation of Poznan does not want this to continue.

I like you sooo much right now! This post besides being cute does in fact best describe what I have been saying all along.

You put me on your PZI list... great so what now? It doesnt affect my ability to play the game as your not attacking me. Your alliance (I am assuming) does not support you taking action while you are under their AA... so again still no effect. You could drop your AA and attack me if you wanted to but your alliance still wouldnt be responsible since you would now be a former member.

And contrary to Sal's belief this is not having a psychological effect on me since nothing is actually happening.

Just a different perspective to keep in mind gentlemen.

[HeinousOne]

I don't care when people post their opinions on the OWF. What bothers me is when they take it past OWF to talk to multiple governing officials of an alliance after a statement has already been made in the thread. Also, obviously some people are more concerned for taking down the PR of alliances (read: HeinousOne telling me he frowns on log dumping but was going to take an exception to me) than just posting their opinion.

Oh look at you go. Is this a PR attempt by you? Yes I said you might just see a log dump but...have you? Perhaps I just wanted you to bust that out to prove that MA leadership wished to speak privately with me. You could have just ignored me but you didn't. Any conversation between us that I would have showed would just have been the parts where you stated MA policy and how MA would act on this. As you said earlier though that has already been stated and since you really do not wish to quote and respond to my latest summation of all those statements I will hazard a guess that my summation was right on.

Really...I want you to quote it and try to pick it apart.

I like you sooo much right now! This post besides being cute does in fact best describe what I have been saying all along.

You put me on your PZI list... great so what now? It doesnt affect my ability to play the game as your not attacking me. Your alliance (I am assuming) does not support you taking action while you are under their AA... so again still no effect. You could drop your AA and attack me if you wanted to but your alliance still wouldnt be responsible since you would now be a former member.

And contrary to Sal's belief this is not having a psychological effect on me since nothing is actually happening.

Just a different perspective to keep in mind gentlemen.

Only problem in this is that you are the leader of a good sized alliance with quite a few allies. The target of your members coterie had no alliance. I guess that means that he should have no rights and that your member and his cronies should be able to hold him down permanently right? That is why a threat upon you is just a harmless threat but a threat upon an allianceless nation is not so harmless because that threat can actually be followed through with.

I would have thought that this explanation would not be necessary.

Edited July 27, 2009 by HeinousOne

[CptGodzilla]

Oh look at you go. Is this a PR attempt by you? Yes I said you might just see a log dump but...have you? Perhaps I just wanted you to bust that out to prove that MA leadership wished to speak privately with me. You could have just ignored me but you didn't. Any conversation between us that I would have showed would just have been the parts where you stated MA policy and how MA would act on this. As you said earlier though that has already been stated and since you really do not wish to quote and respond to my latest summation of all those statements I will hazard a guess that my summation was right on.

Really...I want you to quote it and try to pick it apart.

90% of CN is about PR, you should know that

As for picking it apart? what is there to say, it's all been said. There is a charter and a code of conduct for MA. AJ hasn't (according to my knowledge) broken either the charter or the code of conduct. Any other assumptions you make about MA are just that, assumptions. You can say all you want, it wont make it true or false.

Edited July 27, 2009 by CptGodzilla

[Sileath]

Well since you don't seen to know what i'm talking about. Every week or so there seems to be a problem in the OWF which warrants long arguments. Now at this point, the CN community at large either agrees or disagrees with the OP and/or subsiquential discussions. I was refering to a theory I have that certain groups of people feel that everyone should play with their CN moral system and their idea of right an wrong. Within this game, there are over 20,000 nations. Within this game there are hundreds of alliances. You will have 1 situation, and there will be 10 different viewpoints within minutes.

What i'm trying to say is there is no certain definition of what is right and wrong. You trying to fight this like something will change only amuses me. It doesn't make me want to go to my alliance and write up a set of rules based on "what sal paradise would do" or "what HeinousOne would do". Just as if you saw me in an arguement, you wouldn't go to your alliance and say "what would CptGodzilla do."

Moral of the story? Nothing within MA is going to change unless our members make it happen. Nothing is going to happen to AJ until he breaks the rules. Your attempt to smear our PR is slightly irritating (like when your eye twitches but you can't stop it) at best. Give up the morality parade and go back to trying to better your alliance, it will be more effective and make you feel better in the end.

Faking log dumps should be wrong by everyone's standards.

Requiring a fake log dump as a surrender term should be wrong by everyone's standards.

[Erich Ludendorff]

I don't care when people post their opinions on the OWF. What bothers me is when they take it past OWF to talk to multiple governing officials of an alliance after a statement has already been made in the thread. Also, obviously some people are more concerned for taking down the PR of alliances (read: HeinousOne telling me he frowns on log dumping but was going to take an exception to me) than just posting their opinion.

I have no idea what this means. I assume it was directed at someone else.

When you asked Sal to stop his "morality parade", you weren't asking him to stop posting his opinions?

[CptGodzilla]

Faking log dumps should be wrong by everyone's standards.

Requiring a fake log dump as a surrender term should be wrong by everyone's standards.

Says who?

[Sal Paradise]

And contrary to Sal's belief this is not having a psychological effect on me since nothing is actually happening

This only proves my point that you don't understand what PZI is. You are not in the same position as Sileath. Erich's threat is meaningless to you because your nation is strong, you have a powerful alliance and allies backing you and you know it's a joke. If Erich was at all being serious, you'd see me have the courage to publicly repudiate him for making his pronouncement, instead of using tortured logic to make vain attempts at saving face. Astronauts Jones' threat is very real and very serious. Sileath has no power. His alliance is weak and unprotected. And your member is freely threatening him with your silent consent and insulting dismissals.

edit:

-long irrelevant post-

If you want to start a discussion on morality, start a new topic and I'll join you there. But I won't get into all that here.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Sal Paradise

[HeinousOne]

I have no idea what this means. I assume it was directed at someone else.

When you asked Sal to stop his "morality parade", you weren't asking him to stop posting his opinions?

What he means is that instead of talking about this on the OWF I should have directly asked MA officials about it in private channels. Wait....no thats what everyone else says. What he means is that I should have talked about it only on the OWF and not asked their leadership in private channels.....wait, that doesnt sound right either.

Actually I think the point was he would have rathered I not talked about it at all.

[HeinousOne]

Says who?

Um, you. You were just trying to zing me with my purposeful threat of log dumping on you. You brought it here in attempt to one up me because I talked to you about log dumping. So I guess that means that you are against log dumping, so if you are against log dumping then surely you are against dumping fake logs. Or are fake log dumps kind of like threats? They are ok?

[CptGodzilla]

Um, you. You were just trying to zing me with my purposeful threat of log dumping on you. You brought it here in attempt to one up me because I talked to you about log dumping. So I guess that means that you are against log dumping, so if you are against log dumping then surely you are against dumping fake logs. Or are fake log dumps kind of like threats? They are ok?

Where did I say I was against log dumping? All I said is that you were after something other than your opinion based on the fact that you are against log dumps yet were willing to log dump on me. Which in turn was me trying to smear your image.

[CptGodzilla]

If you want to start a discussion on morality, start a new topic and I'll join you there. But I won't get into all that here.

Hardly irrelevant because CN is about opinions and morality (read the opinion about AJ and that you think MA is morally wrong in their opinions). Which in the end makes all arguments moot if you think of it that way. With no arguments there are no wars. With no wars there is no CN.

edit: oops meant to edit the post before this

Edited July 27, 2009 by CptGodzilla

[HeinousOne]

Where did I say I was against log dumping? All I said is that you were after something other than your opinion based on the fact that you are against log dumps yet were willing to log dump on me. Which in turn was me trying to smear your image.

Oh, but that was just the Threat of me log dumping which MA has already shown us that threats dont matter right? Have I yet to dump anything?

[CptGodzilla]

Oh, but that was just the Threat of me log dumping which MA has already shown us that threats dont matter right? Have I yet to dump anything?

I don't take threats lightly.

I should just put this next part in my sig

There is a charter and a code of conduct for MA. AJ hasn't (according to my knowledge) broken either the charter or the code of conduct. Any other assumptions you make about MA are just that, assumptions. You can say all you want, it wont make it true or false.

[Vilien]

Hardly irrelevant because CN is about opinions and morality (read the opinion about AJ and that you think MA is morally wrong in their opinions). Which in the end makes all arguments moot if you think of it that way. With no arguments there are no wars. With no wars there is no CN.

edit: oops meant to edit the post before this

If you want to start a thread about the place of morality in CN, go ahead. I'll be sure to join you. But don't derail this one.

[HeinousOne]

I don't take threats lightly.

I should just put this next part in my sig

There is a charter and a code of conduct for MA. AJ hasn't (according to my knowledge) broken either the charter or the code of conduct. Any other assumptions you make about MA are just that, assumptions. You can say all you want, it wont make it true or false.

You take AJ's threats of PZI lightly.

[Erich Ludendorff]

I don't take threats lightly.

I should just put this next part in my sig

There is a charter and a code of conduct for MA. AJ hasn't (according to my knowledge) broken either the charter or the code of conduct. Any other assumptions you make about MA are just that, assumptions. You can say all you want, it wont make it true or false.

I thought the whole point was that MA does take threats lightly.

edit: beaten

Edited July 27, 2009 by Erich Ludendorff

[CptGodzilla]

You take AJ's threats of PZI lightly.

Astronaut Jones is roughly 20,500 NS

Sileath is 780 NS

It will take months for sileath to even get into range of AJ. And as AJ isn't a government member There isn't even a slight chance that MA will put sileath on ZI. If AJ tells his friends to attack Sileath, how is that MA's problem (as long as he is following MA's rules)? AJ is in MA, his friends are not.

Edit: If AJ was in some kind of situation to project a serious threat against Sileath, I wouldn't take it lightly

Edited July 27, 2009 by CptGodzilla

[HeinousOne]

Astronaut Jones is roughly 20,500 NS

Sileath is 780 NS

It will take months for sileath to even get into range of AJ. And as AJ isn't a government member There isn't even a slight chance that MA will put sileath on ZI. If AJ tells his friends to attack Sileath, how is that MA's problem (as long as he is following MA's rules)? AJ is in MA, his friends are not.

Threats of PZI are serious especially when showing the NS difference. Now Sileath feels threatened and may possibly not build up for he could just be attacked by far superior nations whom have circumvented their own alliances policies by joining an independent coterie while still enjoying the luxury of the protection of their alliances.

Now with every bit of infrastructure Sileath builds he may fear he is one step closer to being attacked again and driven back to ZI. You are right though, its such a small thing and there is nothing that MA can do when it comes to the actions of an MA member.

[CptGodzilla]

Threats of PZI are serious especially when showing the NS difference. Now Sileath feels threatened and may possibly not build up for he could just be attacked by far superior nations whom have circumvented their own alliances policies by joining an independent coterie while still enjoying the luxury of the protection of their alliances.

Now with every bit of infrastructure Sileath builds he may fear he is one step closer to being attacked again and driven back to ZI. You are right though, its such a small thing and there is nothing that MA can do when it comes to the actions of an MA member.

With no aid, it would take Sileath a few months to get to 15k NS (the range of AJ currently) in the time between that, AJ can easily leave MA, be ZI'd himself (i mean common, it's AJ) or decide to take away the PZI.

Just because he is in an "independent coterie" doesn't make him exempt from our rules.

[HeinousOne]

With no aid, it would take Sileath a few months to get to 15k NS (the range of AJ currently) in the time between that, AJ can easily leave MA, be ZI'd himself (i mean common, it's AJ) or decide to take away the PZI.

Just because he is in an "independent coterie" doesn't make him exempt from our rules.

Would you mind listing the NS of the other nations of Dynomite Pact?

I realize they are not MA nations but the threat made for them all was made by an MA nation. The threat from their nations towards Sileath is just as real as the threat from AJ.

[Erich Ludendorff]

With no aid, it would take Sileath a few months to get to 15k NS (the range of AJ currently) in the time between that, AJ can easily leave MA, be ZI'd himself (i mean common, it's AJ) or decide to take away the PZI.

Just because he is in an "independent coterie" doesn't make him exempt from our rules.

Exactly who interprets your code of conduct? A member has issued a PZI, against policy(from my understanding), and has stated his intention to attack a newly formed sovereign alliance. All of this is within your code of conduct?

[Dan123123]

Says who?

The price of telling lies is the trust of others in a person's word. In this world, we have our soldiers and our word to defend ourselves. The word of a person and his integrity are his entire self here. It is a representation of that person, and it is the only real resource worth trying to maintain at all costs. If a person allows his word to become as expendable as their soldiers are in war, then that person will find himself treated as expendable. Nations can be rebuilt; soldiers can be nursed back to health; however, broken trust is almost always irreparable. Liars will not be trusted to tell the truth because they have a exhibited a pattern of lying in the past. (A shocking revelation, to be sure.)

It's not a matter of 'who says.' It's a matter of who trusts whom. It isn't a moral issue. Forging documents and passing it off as an objective fact will have only a few possible results: no one will believe anything that person says after discovering the falsehood.

Or worse, people will believe the falsehoods to be the absolute truth. That's a very subtle tyranny. It's forcible manipulation of history. If the written record says events happened a certain way and those involved in the events refuse to challenge the written record as a lie (be it by coercion or otherwise), then how can an objective observer come to any conclusion other than that the lies are truth? It's not just revisionism, it's a creating a whole new truth.

Edited July 27, 2009 by Dan123123

[CptGodzilla]

Would you mind listing the NS of the other nations of Dynomite Pact?

I realize they are not MA nations but the threat made for them all was made by an MA nation. The threat from their nations towards Sileath is just as real as the threat from AJ.

SpiderJerusalem, of Nemesis. 50k

TheAUT, of Rogue (recently announced he was quitting). 25k

Jayovfennay, Banned.

Astronaut Jones, of Monos Archein. 20k

MegaAros, of The Jedi Order. 5 NS

As you can see, the only member of their little group that is even close to range is MegaAros who is currently a member of TJO (or the same alliance as Sal). Where is your moral crusade on them? If it is just a threat from AJ, then it doesn't concern the other nations. If it is a threat from AJ with the other nations in agreement, then you should look into them as well.