An Open Letter to the NPO

[Waterana]

The do want to destroy us. Cripple us to the point of disbandment if they can, and 'keep the NPO down so it can never be a threat again'. Several of them have said as much on these forums. How do you think they're going to do that, rainbows and kittens? Why? Fear. Apparently we're going to come back and 'kill em all'. Stupid, just stupid. If they'd stop running around waving their arms in the air peeing their panties in abject terror for 2 minutes and look at our situation in the light of today, not of where we were in the past, or where they think we'll be in the future, but where we are right now, maybe they'd realise they're petrified of what equals a cat in a storm drain.

We've paid the price for our past sins. 20 million AS gone, a third of our members gone, most of our allies gone, our blocs gone, our political capital gone, most of our nations devastated, and that's still not enough to satisfy the blood lust. The alliances fighting us expect us to sign terms that will only result in more destruction, and a quick return to full war anytime they choose via the massive loop holes they left open for that purpose. We will never get peace. We know that. The terms we've seen are written to ensure that. Why the hell would we surrender and willingly hand over what strength we have left to a blood thirsty mob, when it is much less damaging to our alliance to keep on fighting.

So as I said before, if karma wants the NPO destroyed, they'll have to do it themselves. We aren't going to do it for them.

[Azaghul]

Well, I am Gov... is that a standard?

Just kidding. Anywho, being Batman and all, aren't I supposed to be fighting Joker? Where is our LHV? I must do battle with him and his henchshrooms.

By whose side will the Mushreich Kingdom and Mushroom Commune each stand?

[Azaghul]

The do want to destroy us. Cripple us to the point of disbandment if they can, and 'keep the NPO down so it can never be a threat again'. Several of them have said as much on these forums. How do you think they're going to do that, rainbows and kittens? Why? Fear. Apparently we're going to come back and 'kill em all'. Stupid, just stupid. If they'd stop running around waving their arms in the air peeing their panties in abject terror for 2 minutes and look at our situation in the light of today, not of where we were in the past, or where they think we'll be in the future, but where we are right now, maybe they'd realise they're petrified of what equals a cat in a storm drain.

We've paid the price for our past sins. 20 million AS gone, a third of our members gone, most of our allies gone, our blocs gone, our political capital gone, most of our nations devastated, and that's still not enough to satisfy the blood lust. The alliances fighting us expect us to sign terms that will only result in more destruction, and a quick return to full war anytime they choose via the massive loop holes they left open for that purpose. We will never get peace. We know that. The terms we've seen are written to ensure that. Why the hell would we surrender and willingly hand over what strength we have left to a blood thirsty mob, when it is much less damaging to our alliance to keep on fighting.

So as I said before, if karma wants the NPO destroyed, they'll have to do it themselves. We aren't going to do it for them.

Time is money. The terms would temporarily set you back, but then after the period of two weeks you could begin the process of rebuilding, something that reps would slow but not stop. In 6 months you would be stronger than you are now. Continued war gets you nowhere. You might not be losing much in continued war, but that's not the key measurement, you are not gaining anything either while everyone else is.

[Sileath]

You must not have much faith in your alliance if you think two weeks of war for your peace mode nations and reps would destroy it.

Other alliances have been through similar trials or even much worse ones and survived and even prospered.

13 nukes each for the entire economic base, who must then be solely responsible (assuming they still have 1k tech after the nuking) for paying the tech part of the reps.

Your terms are indicative of your insecurity.

[HeinousOne]

Time is money. The terms would temporarily set you back, but then after the period of two weeks you could begin the process of rebuilding, something that reps would slow but not stop. In 6 months you would be stronger than you are now. Continued war gets you nowhere. You might not be losing much in continued war, but that's not the key measurement, you are not gaining anything either while everyone else is.

Not everyone is.

[Azaghul]

13 nukes each for the entire economic base, who must then be solely responsible (assuming they still have 1k tech after the nuking) for paying the tech part of the reps.

13 nukes won't destroy economic improvements, wonders, and large warchests.

Your terms are indicative of your insecurity.

What?

Not everyone is.

Most are, and nearly all will be over the long term.

[Waterana]

Time is money. The terms would temporarily set you back, but then after the period of two weeks you could begin the process of rebuilding, something that reps would slow but not stop. In 6 months you would be stronger than you are now. Continued war gets you nowhere. You might not be losing much in continued war, but that's not the key measurement, you are not gaining anything either while everyone else is.

That is a load of rot. Everything will have to go into reps, which have to be paid under other stupid restrictions that will ensure we can't make the payments. Sorry, but I trust Cortath on this, not outsiders. He's in our alliance and has a much better idea of what we can do than anyone outside it. There will be little rebuilding. The small nations can't even do tech deals internally due to the aid slot crap. What's left of the large ones will be too busy pumping out money and stripping themselves of their own tech to have slots or aid to spare for the rest of us.

This makes me laugh, on the one side we have people trying to tell us reps will be paid off quickly and it will be a doddle, and then others saying the terms were written deliberately to keep our economy low for as long as possible and restrict rebuilding so we couldn't 'rebuild and come kill em'. So which is it?

[HeinousOne]

Most are, and nearly all will be over the long term.

I am not just talking about nation stats. You know that isnt the only measuring stick.

[Cortath]

LoD: Your posts do not become you. The LoD I know is better than that. I hope the new LoD is too.

[energizer]

Its funny to see NPO refusing terms out of sake of pride. After all, they only lost one other war (that they refuse to admit). I do find it hilarious to hold a original 900 member player base in hostage for the sake of their record. Ha.

[Essenia]

We've paid the price for our past sins. 20 million AS gone, a third of our members gone, most of our allies gone, our blocs gone, our political capital gone, most of our nations devastated, and that's still not enough to satisfy the blood lust. The alliances fighting us expect us to sign terms that will only result in more destruction, and a quick return to full war anytime they choose via the massive loop holes they left open for that purpose. We will never get peace. We know that. The terms we've seen are written to ensure that. Why the hell would we surrender and willingly hand over what strength we have left to a blood thirsty mob, when it is much less damaging to our alliance to keep on fighting.

The do want to destroy us. Cripple us to the point of disbandment if they can, and 'keep the NPO down so it can never be a threat again'. Several of them have said as much on these forums. How do you think they're going to do that, rainbows and kittens? Why? Fear. Apparently we're going to come back and 'kill em all'. Stupid, just stupid. If they'd stop running around waving their arms in the air peeing their panties in abject terror for 2 minutes and look at our situation in the light of today, not of where we were in the past, or where they think we'll be in the future, but where we are right now, maybe they'd realise they're petrified of what equals a cat in a storm drain.

For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk; the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.

13 nukes each for the entire economic base, who must then be solely responsible (assuming they still have 1k tech after the nuking) for paying the tech part of the reps.

Not only that, the nukes will eliminate the 35 billion dollars the top 60 nations have. Seriously, the damage estimates are joke, they aren't even operative if the NPO nations just turtle. Still, again, I have no problem see you guys lose hundreds of millions in cash as well as several wonders every day. Keep it up.

[Azaghul]

That is a load of rot. Everything will have to go into reps, which have to be paid under other stupid restrictions that will ensure we can't make the payments. Sorry, but I trust Cortath on this, not outsiders. He's in our alliance and has a much better idea of what we can do than anyone outside it. There will be little rebuilding. The small nations can't even do tech deals internally due to the aid slot crap. What's left of the large ones will be too busy pumping out money and stripping themselves of their own tech to have slots or aid to spare for the rest of us.

This makes me laugh, on the one side we have people trying to tell us reps will be paid off quickly and it will be a doddle, and then others saying the terms were written deliberately to keep our economy low for as long as possible and restrict rebuilding so we couldn't 'rebuild and come kill em'. So which is it?

Those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. It will take a majority of your slots but the reps are payable. Cortath has never handled war rebuilding and reps, I have. Rebuilding and reps motivate people a lot more than peace time does to participate and necessity is the mother of invention. MK's reps and rebuilding system came out of necessity, we weren't doing anything on that scale beforehand.

Internal aid deals can be done, it just can't exceed the number of slots devoted to reps. There's still a lot of potential there.

Nor does rebuilding have everything to do with aid slots. Small nations may grow less without aid, but they'll still grow because they can devote their collections to buying infra. Something that goes relatively quickly when you have lots of economic wonders and improvements. Even banks should have left over money with which to grow as 18mill/300 tech every cycle does not take up all of a mid sized nation's (3-5K infra) collections.

[Waterana]

Its funny to see NPO refusing terms out of sake of pride. After all, they only lost one other war (that they refuse to admit). I do find it hilarious to hold a original 900 member player base in hostage for the sake of their record. Ha.

Wow, do you have some catching up to do. We got past the 'pride' thing ages ago. I'll help. All members of the NPO have seen these terms, they are posted on our forum. The BR of the NPO back our leaders 100% in saying hell no to these terms.

[Azaghul]

I am not just talking about nation stats. You know that isnt the only measuring stick.

I was referring to alliance stats, but my every other measure they won't be growing as well. They can't exactly sign many new treaties while stuck in war like this.

[muffasamini]

Its funny to see NPO refusing terms out of sake of pride. After all, they only lost one other war (that they refuse to admit). I do find it hilarious to hold a original 900 member player base in hostage for the sake of their record. Ha.

If you believe we are denying terms, keeping us in a bloody war we are losing, for our pride, your wrong. Even the informed Karma members arent trying to say that. You just sound ignorant. Please come back with a more logical response, like "shut up and take it. These are negotiations" or "You arent growing now, but you will drop a quarter million infra minimum from mandatory war after you accept *peace terms*, so they are in your best interests" or my favorite "None of us want an eternal war, but this is a war of extinction." or maybe even "your diplomatically isolated, beat to hell, and about to pay the largest reps ever. Your going to spring back up and kill us in four months." Whatever it is, don't say pride is getting in the way of peace.

Edited July 11, 2009 by muffasamini

[Lord of Destruction]

LoD: Your posts do not become you. The LoD I know is better than that. I hope the new LoD is too.

I'm the same LoD as before. It just happens that I'm having more fun here. Yes, I do serious work as well, I don't believe anyone will honestly debate that, but it's much easier to have fun here on the big boards than it was before.

And I do make some actual points if you read some of them in the right light.

[Seerow]

I'm the same LoD as before. It just happens that I'm having more fun here. Yes, I do serious work as well, I don't believe anyone will honestly debate that, but it's much easier to have fun here on the big boards than it was before.

And I do make some actual points if you read some of them in the right light.

You're doing this all wrong. If you don't let them do their spin you'll never become the evil mastermind they believe you to be.

[Waterana]

Those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. It will take a majority of your slots but the reps are payable. Cortath has never handled war rebuilding and reps, I have. Rebuilding and reps motivate people a lot more than peace time does to participate and necessity is the mother of invention. MK's reps and rebuilding system came out of necessity, we weren't doing anything on that scale beforehand.

Internal aid deals can be done, it just can't exceed the number of slots devoted to reps. There's still a lot of potential there.

Nor does rebuilding have everything to do with aid slots. Small nations may grow less without aid, but they'll still grow because they can devote their collections to buying infra. Something that goes relatively quickly when you have lots of economic wonders and improvements. Even banks should have left over money with which to grow as 18mill/300 tech every cycle does not take up all of a mid sized nation's (3-5K infra) collections.

We aren't MK and the situations are different. You weren't at war for 3 months (and counting) so the damage wasn't as severe to start with. You weren't expected to accept more war as a part of peace. I can't remember MK's terms from that war execpt the 10k tech and nuke thing that others love throwing in our faces, so don't want to make mistakes. Will leave it here.

[rsoxbronco1]

I'm on improving terms with NPO, unknown terms with /A\/A\, decent (I think) terms with STA, good terms with NSO leadership, bad terms with Athens because I won't put up with their government insulting me, and very good terms with MHA.

Boo Athens.

[Cortath]

Those two ideas aren't mutually exclusive. It will take a majority of your slots but the reps are payable. Cortath has never handled war rebuilding and reps, I have. Rebuilding and reps motivate people a lot more than peace time does to participate and necessity is the mother of invention. MK's reps and rebuilding system came out of necessity, we weren't doing anything on that scale beforehand.

Internal aid deals can be done, it just can't exceed the number of slots devoted to reps. There's still a lot of potential there.

Nor does rebuilding have everything to do with aid slots. Small nations may grow less without aid, but they'll still grow because they can devote their collections to buying infra. Something that goes relatively quickly when you have lots of economic wonders and improvements. Even banks should have left over money with which to grow as 18mill/300 tech every cycle does not take up all of a mid sized nation's (3-5K infra) collections.

I have dealt with war rebuilding and reparations. Both through the NPO and through GATO.

I'm the same LoD as before. It just happens that I'm having more fun here. Yes, I do serious work as well, I don't believe anyone will honestly debate that, but it's much easier to have fun here on the big boards than it was before.

And I do make some actual points if you read some of them in the right light.

Frankly, it saddens me to see you and Serrow among others posting, and I admit I skipped over many of those posts after the first few.

I am glad you hare having fun. May you be so blessed that your joy continues throughout these times.

[HeinousOne]

I was referring to alliance stats, but my every other measure they won't be growing as well. They can't exactly sign many new treaties while stuck in war like this.

I was not talking about NPO. You said everyone else is growing, in measures other then stats that is definately not true. Some folks are harming themselves very much due to their hardline attitudes.

Honestly I dont think NPO is really worried about making sure they are able to sign alot of new treaties after the war. They probably wont be able to and its not like they will be accepted by others for such for awhile. So once again, you are not pointing to something that they are losing by staying in the fight. They already lost that too.

[muffasamini]

You're doing this all wrong. If you don't let them do their spin you'll never become the evil mastermind they believe you to be.

Umm, what? LoD was a hard working member of this order, but just decided to leave in the very wrong way. He committed his guns to this alliance in times of war, and failed that committment, choosing to be a traitor. Thats all. Anyway, I bore of LoD derailments. Back to Karma, the bloc that isnt!

No alliance is going to accept terms that could result in its insolvency, or are worse that what continued war would be

I have dealt with war rebuilding and reparations. Both through the NPO and through GATO.

But Cortath!? I thought that, even though its correct we were wrong to impose viceroys, we were in GATO longer than minimum to humiliate them and cripple them, not organize their reps, set up a banking system, and create the foundations of re-building?

Edited July 11, 2009 by muffasamini

[Azaghul]

We aren't MK and the situations are different. You weren't at war for 3 months (and counting) so the damage wasn't as severe to start with. You weren't expected to accept more war as a part of peace. I can't remember MK's terms from that war execpt the 10k tech and nuke thing that others love throwing in our faces, so don't want to make mistakes. Will leave it here.

And all calculations done have taken those factors into account.

You'll still have scores of nations to bank because they'll have plenty left over warchest to rebuy infra into banking range. 40 banks and 50 tech farms is enough to pay off the reps in 6 months. Here's a calculator I made a couple weeks ago when I was bored: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rXE...&output=xls

[Seerow]

Frankly, it saddens me to see you and Serrow among others posting, and I admit I skipped over many of those posts after the first few.

You really should go back and read them. If nothing else we can be fairly entertaining. You might not enjoy the bent of our humor, but certainly you can understand the humor derived from comparing my situation two years ago to LoDs today.

The only bad thing in it is I'm not entirely sure how much of our jokes will end up becoming truth in the end.

Umm, what? LoD was a hard working member of this order, but just decided to leave in the very wrong way. He committed his guns to this alliance in times of war, and failed that committment, choosing to be a traitor. Thats all.

That was my story at first too. Eventually I became the mastermind behind an organized walkout that threatened to collapse the NPO military. Give it time, LoD will have similarly impressive feats of manipulation laid at his feet.

Back to Karma, the bloc that isnt!

Wheres the fun in that? We have dozens of threads to talk about that.

No alliance is going to accept terms that could result in its insolvency, or are worse that what continued war would be

Neither of which is the case in the terms that were presented to you. You can shake your head, stick your fingers in your ears, and ignore everyone else all you want, the terms are possible to be met without destroying your alliance, and will ultimately be better than sitting another month, let alone an indefinite period of time, in peace mode.

But Cortath!? I thought that, even though its correct we were wrong to impose viceroys, we were in GATO longer than minimum to humiliate them and cripple them, not organize their reps, set up a banking system, and create the foundations of re-building?

What's that, justification for viceroys? I guess then that NPO won't mind me being appointed as the new Pacifican Viceroy, to help you with rebuilding, restructuring, and paying off your reps. I'll have my people talk to your people, we'll get this deal done.

[Azaghul]

I was not talking about NPO. You said everyone else is growing, in measures other then stats that is definately not true.

We were talking about statistics and statistics are very important in terms of an alliance's relevance and strength.

Some folks are harming themselves very much due to their hardline attitudes.

How so?

Honestly I dont think NPO is really worried about making sure they are able to sign alot of new treaties after the war. They probably wont be able to and its not like they will be accepted by others for such for awhile. So once again, you are not pointing to something that they are losing by staying in the fight. They already lost that too.

They are losing the opportunity to start gaining it back.