NPO's Reps - An attempted unbiased View

[Caliph]

Your just an average person.

No it is revenge, you are speaking of karma would not be imposing the exact same terms.

Example:

You murder someone, their brother kills you that is revenge.

Karma - You murder someone, you are then forced to live out the days as their slave.

How does one become the slave of a dead person?

Are you assuming necromancy is involved?

Seriously, you're wrong.

NPO's actions: equivelent of walking around the bloc and jumping people with their friends, taking money and "tech" and forcing those beat down to work for months in order to continue to pay them.

Karma: beating the ever lasting crap out of the NPO and forcing the NPO to work for months/years to repay others for their actions.

My only complaint is those who were wronged by the NPO should be receiveing reps for past wars, should they chose too, as not many of the alliances fighting NPO now were wronged by the NPO.

[MisterShadow]

How does one become the slave of a dead person?

Are you assuming necromancy is involved?

Seriously, you're wrong.

NPO's actions: equivelent of walking around the bloc and jumping people with their friends, taking money and "tech" and forcing those beat down to work for months in order to continue to pay them.

Karma: beating the ever lasting crap out of the NPO and forcing the NPO to work for months/years to repay others for their actions.

My only complaint is those who were wronged by the NPO should be receiveing reps for past wars, should they chose too, as not many of the alliances fighting NPO now were wronged by the NPO.

Okay lets just say I agree. What about the "turned" alliances? They just get off nice and easy?

[Caliph]

Okay lets just say I agree. What about the "turned" alliances? They just get off nice and easy?

What "turned" alliances?

[MisterShadow]

What "turned" alliances?

FOK and Sparta, they used to roll with Continuum.

BTW I hope RoK gets a good part of the reps cause I think they have the most active wars atm.

[Cortath]

Maybe if the NPO was willing to do the foot work on getting terms from 18 people instead of having one of us run around doing it we'd take them a bit more seriously when they express a desire to negotiate.

That's a bold-faced lie.

The New Pacific Order contacted leadership from every single alliance in Karma multiple times for weeks before Karma finally got its act together to have Londo be their messenger and present us with terms. In fact, I spoke with you in that very capacity.

The answer was always the same: "We negotiate as a bloc. We will not discuss terms individually. Wait for us to come to you."

Edited June 14, 2009 by Cortath

[Drostan]

It will take immensely long for NPO to recover without reps.

No amount of aid will change my nation. Back in GWI (if I was there) I could use aid to rebuild. But 15mil per cycle is going to jack for me. Down 11k infra, 4k tech, 1.2 Billion in cash. It is probably 16 months before I can recover that. And I am not paying reps

That is an interesting approach to diplomacy. I can't believe you guys haven't gotten peace yet...

Your alliance will be paying reps. That is a reality you should work on accepting as soon as possible.

[bakamitai]

They are non-negotiable because moo was addressing a messenger not a negotiator, not to belittle Londo's efforts here, but he can't speak for all 18 alliances he can only tell the NPO what the 18 alliances have agreed on.

The New Pacific Order contacted leadership from every single alliance in Karma multiple times for weeks before Karma finally got its act together to have Londo be their messenger and present us with terms. In fact, I spoke with you in that very capacity.

The answer was always the same: "We negotiate as a bloc. We will not discuss terms individually. Wait for us to come to you."

Karma was formed as a military bloc, not a political one. Well, now that they're winning the fight, they've suddenly become a political force with what appears to be very little political common ground. Some want to make this war about NPO's past 'atrocities', some don't. Some want to make the amount of reps crippling, while others want to avoid "nuking the cow they're milking." In fact, some think the proposed reps are variously too high, too low, and just right. Some are clearly in this fight for revenge, some dislike the theoretical idea of a hegemony, some may even have personal grudges against individuals within the NPO leadership. To say that "Karma speaks with one voice" is a statement of itself difficult to believe. (On that note, I commend Londo's efforts to navigate difficult waters.)

The problem, then, is that negotiation is inherently a political exercise, not a military one. Yet there is very little direct, unilateral political authority. With the combined leadership experience of 18 alliances, surely someone foresaw this eventuality?

Edit: clarity and grammar.

Edited June 14, 2009 by bakamitai

[Qaianna]

That is an interesting approach to diplomacy. I can't believe you guys haven't gotten peace yet...

Your alliance will be paying reps. That is a reality you should work on accepting as soon as possible.

Guys, please. Whatever your feelings about the New Pacific Order, their counteroffer for the reps was MORE cash (and removal of what they consider to be a provision they can't meet). They've pretty much figured out pixels are going to flow out. I'm assuming that Moo is authorised to speak in that regard here, correct me if I'm wrong.

Either he's saying he hasn't taken reps payments into account yet (in which case, he should phrase it a lot better), or he's saying he won't be paying himself (in which case, were I the Emperor, we'd have a little meeting to determine why that's the case--note that it's not automatic bombing and throwing out, just investigation).

[bakamitai]

That is an interesting approach to diplomacy. I can't believe you guys haven't gotten peace yet...

Your alliance will be paying reps. That is a reality you should work on accepting as soon as possible.

Mr.AdmiralX has stated elsewhere that he is quitting the game. Ergo, not paying reps.

[TypoNinja]

Mr.AdmiralX has stated elsewhere that he is quitting the game. Ergo, not paying reps.

So now that your alliance is no longer top tog and can't push people around as they see fit, your members public reaction is..

"BAAAAW YOU GUYS ARE NO FUN, I'M TAKING MY BALL AND GOING HOME!!!"

Seriously, you sat around for years dishing it out, and when its your turn to be on the receiving end its time to pack it in? I hope for your sake hes an isolated case in terms of your membership.

[Cortath]

That's a bold-faced lie.

The New Pacific Order contacted leadership from every single alliance in Karma multiple times for weeks before Karma finally got its act together to have Londo be their messenger and present us with terms. In fact, I spoke with you in that very capacity.

The answer was always the same: "We negotiate as a bloc. We will not discuss terms individually. Wait for us to come to you."

So now that your alliance is no longer top tog and can't push people around as they see fit, your members public reaction is..

"BAAAAW YOU GUYS ARE NO FUN, I'M TAKING MY BALL AND GOING HOME!!!"

Seriously, you sat around for years dishing it out, and when its your turn to be on the receiving end its time to pack it in? I hope for your sake hes an isolated case in terms of your membership.

I see you've been able to respond to other posts in this thread; however, not the one that I made calling you out.

I don't expect you to answer, but I'd like those reading this thread to note that.

[TypoNinja]

I see you've been able to respond to other posts in this thread; however, not the one that I made calling you out.

I don't expect you to answer, but I'd like those reading this thread to note that.

Which one? I'm afraid your drivel all blurs together after a while.

Edit, after reading back I think I see which one

That's a bold-faced lie.

The New Pacific Order contacted leadership from every single alliance in Karma multiple times for weeks before Karma finally got its act together to have Londo be their messenger and present us with terms. In fact, I spoke with you in that very capacity.

The answer was always the same: "We negotiate as a bloc. We will not discuss terms individually. Wait for us to come to you."

I wont stoop to your level of calling it a lie*, but if we don't automatically assume the worst of people, some possibilities emerge. Like the fact that your contacting people was what got them working on reps at all, and them telling you we negotiate as a block is them saying, we'll bring you terms once everybody has agreed on something. Of course now you've taken "Wait for us to come to you" and interpreted that as "Run to the OWF" I can see how that would go over well.

*Actually, I will call you a liar, you did not speak with me about terms, you know how I know this? I'm not the person to ask about terms, I'm a diplomat not the secretary of defence or lord. As I've mentioned numerous times I have no say in terms (luckily for you, my ideas for what to do to the NPO were much worse than what you got, however having seen them I find these terms personally acceptable as well.) I am simply a member of my alliance who enjoys contradicting the propaganda of others.

I did tell you, some time ago, back when you were whining about having nobody to ask about terms as opposed to whining about what the terms were, that it would be possible to ask just about anyone and the process would be started. I pointed out in an attempt to highlight the absurdity of your claim that even telling me, a simple diplomat (delegate actually) would work because it would always be possible for even the most minor functionaries to pass a message up the chain of command. Since at that point the NPO had not even expressed a desire to surrender, such a step was still necessary.

If you thought that implied I was empowered to speak for all of Karma(or the NPO front) I respectfully suggest you need either more coffee or more sleep. Or both.

Edited June 14, 2009 by TypoNinja

[Cortath]

Which one? I'm afraid your drivel all blurs together after a while.

The same one I took the time and courtesy to quote in the post right above yours.

[Tromp]

That's a bold-faced lie.

The New Pacific Order contacted leadership from every single alliance in Karma multiple times for weeks before Karma finally got its act together to have Londo be their messenger and present us with terms. In fact, I spoke with you in that very capacity.

The answer was always the same: "We negotiate as a bloc. We will not discuss terms individually. Wait for us to come to you."

Talking about bold-faced lies...

NPO never once talked to FOK gov at that time.

[TypoNinja]

The same one I took the time and courtesy to quote in the post right above yours.

Edited in a reply, your too fast for me, thought i could get it in before more replies.

[Cortath]

Talking about bold-faced lies...

NPO never once talked to FOK gov at that time.

I personally spoke with FOK Government, specifically, MrCyber, your Minister of Economic Affairs on June 4, 2009. That your government (the one you lead, I believe?) does not inform you of these things is none of my business.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Cortath

[Cortath]

Which one? I'm afraid your drivel all blurs together after a while.

Edit, after reading back I think I see which one

I wont stoop to your level of calling it a lie*, but if we don't automatically assume the worst of people, some possibilities emerge. Like the fact that your contacting people was what got them working on reps at all, and them telling you we negotiate as a block is them saying, we'll bring you terms once everybody has agreed on something. Of course now you've taken "Wait for us to come to you" and interpreted that as "Run to the OWF" I can see how that would go over well.

*Actually, I will call you a liar, you did not speak with me about terms, you know how I know this? I'm not the person to ask about terms, I'm a diplomat not the secretary of defence or lord. As I've mentioned numerous times I have no say in terms (luckily for you, my ideas for what to do to the NPO were much worse than what you got, however having seen them I find these terms personally acceptable as well.) I am simply a member of my alliance who enjoys contradicting the propaganda of others.

I did tell you, some time ago, back when you were whining about having nobody to ask about terms as opposed to whining about what the terms were, that it would be possible to ask just about anyone and the process would be started. I pointed out in an attempt to highlight the absurdity of your claim that even telling me, a simple diplomat (delegate actually) would work because it would always be possible for even the most minor functionaries to pass a message up the chain of command. Since at that point the NPO had not even expressed a desire to surrender, such a step was still necessary.

If you thought that implied I was empowered to speak for all of Karma(or the NPO front) I respectfully suggest you need either more coffee or more sleep. Or both.

The point I'm making is simple:

You stated we did not contact members of the governments of the 18 alliances we are fighting against.

I'm stating that in fact we did. Simple as that.

[TypoNinja]

The point I'm making is simple:

You stated we did not contact members of the governments of the 18 alliances we are fighting against.

I'm stating that in fact we did. Simple as that.

I did? I suppose its a close distinction, but an important one. I was addressing an active role, rather than a passive one. I don't think theres any doubt you've been in communication after all how else would we have moved on from complaining about lack of terms to complaining about what the terms are?

Despite the 'we negotiate as a bloc' statement I'd have a hard time believing any serious counter offer would be rejected out of hand. Your previous counter offer was not a serious one, one billion in cash for the safety of ~60 banks is not a reasonable trade off. It may take a while for your counter offer to make the rounds across 18 alliances, so wasting time with offers that are unlikely to be accepted would be foolish at this point as you do not have the luxury of a cease fire while negotiating.

NPO has shown a talent for coming up with inventive peace terms in the past, the terms you have now represent a consensus of what the people fighting you have come up with. Put your imagination to work, perhaps you can come up with something none of us have thought of that would Be acceptable.

But I've forgotten, niceties like negotiation are what you gave up on when you ran to the OWF instead of trying something productive.

[Cortath]

I did? I suppose its a close distinction, but an important one. I was addressing an active role, rather than a passive one. I don't think theres any doubt you've been in communication after all how else would we have moved on from complaining about lack of terms to complaining about what the terms are?

Despite the 'we negotiate as a bloc' statement I'd have a hard time believing any serious counter offer would be rejected out of hand. Your previous counter offer was not a serious one, one billion in cash for the safety of ~60 banks is not a reasonable trade off. It may take a while for your counter offer to make the rounds across 18 alliances, so wasting time with offers that are unlikely to be accepted would be foolish at this point as you do not have the luxury of a cease fire while negotiating.

NPO has shown a talent for coming up with inventive peace terms in the past, the terms you have now represent a consensus of what the people fighting you have come up with. Put your imagination to work, perhaps you can come up with something none of us have thought of that would Be acceptable.

But I've forgotten, niceties like negotiation are what you gave up on when you ran to the OWF instead of trying something productive.

So you're stating that you believe these 18 alliances would have accepted a higher counter-offer? Funny. No one mentioned that during negotiations when we made the counter-offer.

[TypoNinja]

So you're stating that you believe these 18 alliances would have accepted a higher counter-offer? Funny. No one mentioned that during negotiations when we made the counter-offer.

I refuse to believe your that ignorant of how a negotiation works, and instead choose to believe your simply attempting to play up the pity card. But just in case;

Protip, in negotiations both sides attempt to gain as much advantage for themselves, in the case of sales and surrender terms, one side wants easier terms the other wants harder terms.

Each side crafts an offer, but each may or may not bear any resemblance to what they are willing to settle for. However, neither side will even hint at what the lowest they will go is, in fact outright lying is common in most negotiations (I've got kids to feed!). When one side has a very massive advantage (as in surrender terms) They have room to appear less flexible than they are actually willing to be because they know you have no choice but to continue(and thereby putting the one on the defensive in the position of offering more), a salesman on the other hand will juggle as many details as possible to keep you at the table, someone dictating surrender terms is under no such constraint. Any counter offer the NPO comes up with must appeal to Karma. You want Karma to give up something, convince them why they should or take your medicine and get it over with. Remember stalling the proceedings hurts the NPO, your herculean recruiting efforts may be keeping your numbers from going into complete free fall, but they are still dropping. If you save your banks but find no alliance left to rebuild with them you have not gained anything at all.

[Cortath]

I refuse to believe your that ignorant of how a negotiation works, and instead choose to believe your simply attempting to play up the pity card. But just in case;

Protip, in negotiations both sides attempt to gain as much advantage for themselves, in the case of sales and surrender terms, one side wants easier terms the other wants harder terms.

Each side crafts an offer, but each may or may not bear any resemblance to what they are willing to settle for. However, neither side will even hint at what the lowest they will go is, in fact outright lying is common in most negotiations (I've got kids to feed!). When one side has a very massive advantage (as in surrender terms) They have room to appear less flexible than they are actually willing to be because they know you have no choice but to continue(and thereby putting the one on the defensive in the position of offering more), a salesman on the other hand will juggle as many details as possible to keep you at the table, someone dictating surrender terms is under no such constraint. Any counter offer the NPO comes up with must appeal to Karma. You want Karma to give up something, convince them why they should or take your medicine and get it over with. Remember stalling the proceedings hurts the NPO, your herculean recruiting efforts may be keeping your numbers from going into complete free fall, but they are still dropping. If you save your banks but find no alliance left to rebuild with them you have not gained anything at all.

I am a simple man, TypoNinja. I am not a Diplomat; I am not a Statesman. I am not even a soldier. At best, I am an economist, a scribe, and but a man.

When Karma tells us, "The group is not willing to alter the terms as they stand. Particularly not to the current counteroffer and in general not at all," I believe them. The NPO wants Karma to give something up. We're willing to give something up in exchange for that. We made an offer, it was refused.

But it's not as simple as that. Karma said that the very thing wanted to be given, could, under no circumstances, be given up.

And for Karma, unlike for us, it's a matter of "want" not "can." Karma "wants" to keep that term in place. We "cannot" meet the rest of the terms, if those terms are in place. Karma has the ability to alter those terms, so that the NPO "can" accept them, using any number of mechanisms, other terms, taking other things that they might want, but they did not "want" to alter those terms.

[MisterShadow]

So now that your alliance is no longer top tog and can't push people around as they see fit, your members public reaction is..

"BAAAAW YOU GUYS ARE NO FUN, I'M TAKING MY BALL AND GOING HOME!!!"

Seriously, you sat around for years dishing it out, and when its your turn to be on the receiving end its time to pack it in? I hope for your sake hes an isolated case in terms of your membership.

Alright ill just address everything with this quote. Me saying I would not be paying reps was under the assumption that anyone with over 1000 tech AFTER the 14 days of additional war (there is a good chance that after 14 days of war I will be under 1000 tech). Thus my ability not to pay reps.

As for the quitting thing, I have said multiple times before (long before) and during this war if a certain person (who many people know, I dont care if you dont) quits then I will be.

OOC:

That persons life has gotten busy and no longer really have interest in the game, plus I have just graduated university and have been here almost 1000 days.

NPO was my "retirement" I was very inactive, I logged in every 15 days to collect taxes and do the occasional tech deal, thus result I sat inactive for 5 months. My infra had moved a grand total of 50 since I got there. And really our membership has dropped less than 25% how many alliances that are being fought by 18 alliances for over a month can make that claim.

[TypoNinja]

Over 100 nations have been recruited to the NPO since the war started (going by alliance seniority of under 50 days), your actual loss of membership is more significant than simple total member count would imply.

[MisterShadow]

Over 100 nations have been recruited to the NPO since the war started (going by alliance seniority of under 50 days), your actual loss of membership is more significant than simple total member count would imply.

So clearly we are such evil overlords we forced these people to come join us during a state of war. But seriously how many alliances are able to hold people under an AA like NPO has for this war.

Oh yah VE had 391 on April 20th, now they have 296, but of those 296, 29 have less than 45 days seniority so based on your statement VE is 267 of their orginal 391 or 68%

NPO had 877 now 724, 94 have 45 days or less. so that is really 630 which make a percentage of 71.8%.

Yah clearly our members are running for their lives, and you just had a bit of internal problems

Edited June 14, 2009 by Mr.AdmiralX

[Caliph]

Alright ill just address everything with this quote. Me saying I would not be paying reps was under the assumption that anyone with over 1000 tech AFTER the 14 days of additional war (there is a good chance that after 14 days of war I will be under 1000 tech). Thus my ability not to pay reps.

As for the quitting thing, I have said multiple times before (long before) and during this war if a certain person (who many people know, I dont care if you dont) quits then I will be.

OOC:

That persons life has gotten busy and no longer really have interest in the game, plus I have just graduated university and have been here almost 1000 days.

NPO was my "retirement" I was very inactive, I logged in every 15 days to collect taxes and do the occasional tech deal, thus result I sat inactive for 5 months. My infra had moved a grand total of 50 since I got there. And really our membership has dropped less than 25% how many alliances that are being fought by 18 alliances for over a month can make that claim.

Bolded above is a blatant lie, or proof you have not read the surrender terms.

The terms state that the nations above 1k at at the time of the acceptance of the terms are the ones to send out the specified tech. There is no requirement to keep those nations at or above 1k tech during the 2 weeks of required war, or during the time where NPO issues payments.

This is an attempted spin of the terms to try to gather more pity to you and your alliance.

OOC: heh, I've been there man, I quit CN once, but came back. Good luck out there