Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Essenia]

This kind of paranoia is irrational. We are not #1 anymore, we are likely to receive the worst reparations in the history of Planet Bob, we have already acknowledged utter defeat, and our political position is precarious at best. You are fearmongering.

Who is to say you won't lead a coalition of alliances against those you want revenge against? That's never happened before has it...

Edited June 14, 2009 by essenia

[Nintenderek]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=26941

Sorry, but you're wrong. I really don't want to put a spotlight under this topic, but posting 'De Profundis' must always go along with Dilber's 'Hello'. Hopefully the Vox koolaid hasn't gotten to everyone on these forums.

You'll notice the first and second line.

Well, this is unfortunate. I never expected people that I respected to enough to speak frankly to decide to try something like this. You’ll note a very specific thing in all those logs. I very specifically state that we will not attack Polaris, and any other judgements are based on the response of Sponge

Which is already directly contradicted in the logs I posted in this topic that I got from De Profundis. I don't wish to go through the rest of the post for contradictions at this time, however read it again and compare and see if you really believe Dilber's is more right then Doitzel's.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Nintenderek

[Aya Reiko]

It is very related. NPO has shown many times over that it is driven by revenge and that it will declare war for the flimsiest of reasons. It is only logical for the alliances in Karma to protect themselves against your future retribution by offering harsh terms.

That idea worked out well for Europe in the 1930's and 40's.

[presidentpants]

If thats the only sticking point then I find it hard to believe it could not have been worked out after a little more refining privately, by making this announcement all you've achieved is making it harder to either side to back down.

And they're getting justice for themselves and their allies, some of whome ended up disbanding as a result of terms you handed out, so technically 'pretending to be a force for justice' would be giving you light terms.

Our announcement serves to show that the NPO is listening to the concerns raised.

Yet the posts made by Karma leadership make apparent their lack of conviction in the belief that terms which seek disbandment are improper.

[Essenia]

That idea worked out well for Europe in the 1930's and 40's.

ooc: why are you comparing NPO to Nazi Germany? First, it's unflattering. Second if France and Britain had actually enforced the terms turning a blind eye while Germany remilitarized illegally (and also if they not given up trying to collect the cash) they might not have been in the terrible position they were in by 1939.

So NPO should not be punished?

[Sequoia Throne]

You'll notice the first and second line.

Which is already directly contradicted in the logs I posted in this topic that I got from De Profundis. I don't wish to go through the rest of the post for contradictions at this time, however read it again and compare and see if you really believe Dilber's is more right then Doitzel's.

In fact, I did read it again, although I didn't really need to.

[18:51] <Dilber|dinner> we aren't killing polar though

[18:51] <Dilber|dinner> unless they do anything more stupid

[18:51] <Dilber|dinner> We aren't cutting OoO

That's from the De Profundis logs. The reason that Dilber said we'd probably be killing Polar is because Sponge was being stubborn and irrational. I'm not going to try and convince you further Nintenderek, you have been chugging the koolaid and your perspective is so warped that it would be futile. For people reading this that are not so drunk on Vox propaganda, read Dilber's retort and make up your own mind .

Edited June 14, 2009 by Straylight

[Nintenderek]

In fact, I did read it again, although I didn't really need to.

That's from the De Profundis logs. The reason that Dilber said we'd probably be killing Polar is because Sponge was being stubborn and irrational. I'm not going to try and convince you further Nintenderek, you have been chugging the koolaid and your perspective is so warped that it would be futile. For people reading this that are not so drunk on Vox propaganda, read Dilber's retort and make up your own mind .

Read the first line. They directly contradict themselves. Dilber said he would be killing them and then said he wouldn't. That says a lot about him now doesn't it? Personally, I prefer leadership that have an opinion and stick to it.

And somehow, I get the feeling that his original opinion was his actual opinion. And say what you want about me, your own Pacifican academy is designed to brainwash the masses. Just ask HeniousOne.

[Essenia]

My personal opinion by the argument over the validity of 'De Profundis' and 'Hello' is best summed up by the classic remark Heft made during the VE negotiations:

[17:04] <%Heft> We're waving our penises around.

[kriegsdrachen]

Read the first line. They directly contradict themselves. Dilber said he would be killing them and then said he wouldn't. That says a lot about him now doesn't it? Personally, I prefer leadership that have an opinion and stick to it.

If a situation changes, shouldn't the opinion be re-evaluated?

[Nintenderek]

If a situation changes, shouldn't the opinion be re-evaluated?

The situation didn't change. Sponge was still emperor, and that was their main problem with NpO

[Guido]

I think it's funny that KARMA thinks it is a good idea to try to crush the NPOers as much as they can. Not only is it amazingly hypocritical (blah blah white peace, EZI is terrible, how can you be so harsh to other alliances), but it is only going to create such a level of hate for the 500+ members still hardcore in the NPO that it will certainly come back around.

They can stay in peace mode for another 35 years with their war chests...so keep the offers coming I guess?

[Essenia]

I think it's funny that KARMA thinks it is a good idea to try to crush the NPOers as much as they can. Not only is it amazingly hypocritical (blah blah white peace, EZI is terrible, how can you be so harsh to other alliances), but it is only going to create such a level of hate for the 500+ members still hardcore in the NPO that it will certainly come back around.

Again, what happened to the last alliance that gave NPO lenient peace terms?

As for peace mode, have fun losing collectively 700-800 million a day in lost income. Karma only gains the longer NPO nations sit in peace mode.

[presidentpants]

As for practicing EZI, you absolutely did. The reappearance of Valid de Impala/Cereal Killer in GPA administration was part of the lead up to the Continuum-GPA War. The bottom line of that whole episode was the objection you had to the player continuing to be involved in GPA's internal affairs at any level.

The objection to perma ZI is that nations would be attacked without ongoing cause. If they are actively engaged in efforts against the interests of NPO, that is a different issue.

[Aya Reiko]

ooc: why are you comparing NPO to Nazi Germany? First, it's unflattering. Second if France and Britain had actually enforced the terms turning a blind eye while Germany remilitarized illegally (and also if they not given up trying to collect the cash) they might not have been in the terrible position they were in by 1939.

So NPO should not be punished?

ooc--

1. The more apt comparison here would be between the NPO and, maybe, the Wiemar Republic. But definitely not the Nazis.

2. The severe impositions made by the Treaty of Versailles heavily fueled the support for the Nazi Party, which led to their rise to power. One of Hitler's original goals was to completely undo the Treaty of Versailles economically and militarily.

The point being made:

The only thing an overly severe peace treaty will accomplish is to set the stage for the next major war.

[Sequoia Throne]

Read the first line. They directly contradict themselves. Dilber said he would be killing them and then said he wouldn't. That says a lot about him now doesn't it? Personally, I prefer leadership that have an opinion and stick to it.

And somehow, I get the feeling that his original opinion was his actual opinion. And say what you want about me, your own Pacifican academy is designed to brainwash the masses. Just ask HeniousOne.

What are you on about? In the first line he says that we are not killing Polar. As in, we are not killing Polar for the !@#$ that was going down at the time with Sponge. A few lines later he says that he expects we will have to kill Polar in a few months because of the continual political blunders of the Sponge regime. There is a difference between the present and the future.

Brainwash the masses XD, what a joke.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Straylight

[Astro11]

I think it's funny that KARMA thinks it is a good idea to try to crush the NPOers as much as they can. Not only is it amazingly hypocritical (blah blah white peace, EZI is terrible, how can you be so harsh to other alliances), but it is only going to create such a level of hate for the 500+ members still hardcore in the NPO that it will certainly come back around.

They can stay in peace mode for another 35 years with their war chests...so keep the offers coming I guess?

So, the vast majority of your alliance does indeed have access to extensive warchests, despite the ~134 pages we have here of other NPO members claiming that the alliance is bankrupt and barely has 40 banking nations (if that)?

That, or your gross use of hyperbole for your display of bravado is contradicted by your very own membership.

[Essenia]

1. The more apt comparison here would be between the NPO and, maybe, the Wiemar Republic. But definitely not the Nazis.

2. The severe impositions made by the Treaty of Versailles heavily fueled the support for the Nazi Party, which led to their rise to power. One of Hitler's original goals was to completely undo the Treaty of Versailles economically and militarily.

ooc: should have said the 20s then. By the 30s, the Weimar Republic was already doomed (after the death of Stresseman basically. As for Versailles, the Allies were correct to impose harsh terms. Germany was the aggressor nation and deserved to be punished. It is quite likely that Germany, like NPO, would have gotten involved in another major war even if it had been given reasonable terms.

[NoFish]

Actually no: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1613207

Well as I cant claim to have special in sight, as you do, then I have to accept your word on it.

Thought it remains that the term was lifted later on, did not stayed permanent. NPO was not the only signatory of that surrender term, nor does NPO currently have a problem with decommissioning nukes, but with other clauses in this surrender treaty.

The entire ordeal also is completely irrelevant to the subject matter and the issues presented.

Am I entirely reading this right? NPO would not have a problem in decommissioning their nuclear arsenal indefinitely if the peace mode and 1k tech terms were dropped? I'm pretty sure we could work with this.

[Griff]

As for Versailles, the Allies were correct to impose harsh terms. Germany was the aggressor nation and deserved to be punished.

Actually Austria-Hungary started the war, and being the loser in a war Germany should be punished, but not to the degree it did.

But anyway, how this thread got to 130+ pages is beyond me

[bakamitai]

Jeeze this is still going on?

Okay, well since it is I have a question to the NPO:

The main qualm with the 2 weeks at 90% in war mode seems to be the fear of indefinite war. I want to know, if Karma offered the following right now would it be taken, or would you find another excuse?

-Peace is declared effective immediately. All nations in peace mode at the time of this posting (a list will be made by Karma to be shared with NPO for future reference) are marked. Upon leaving peace mode, any nation on this list will be subject to 2 cycles of war, at which point they will be peaced. During this time the attacked member is to be treated as a rogue, no outside aid may be given, or any wars declared in defense of the nation. Any nation remaining in peace mode for a duration of 30 days beyond the expiration of all other terms will be absolved of this war requirement.

This very clearly brings about an end to the war, solves the activity problem, and leaves no loopholes for an indefinite war. It should fix all of the issues NPO has brought up, except for their inability to pay after war. Karma has stated they are willing to renegotiate the reparations should it be deemed impossible for them to be met with the state of the alliance after the wars. Really it shouldn't be too hard to coordinate gather intel operations on the NPO given how many alliances are involved to get an accurate assessment of all warchests to see what is and is not possible.

Well done for proposing a solution. I'm glad someone else is focused on the important issues.

This is better than the current terms as written, although I have no direct say in the matter. I prefer objective terms (2 cycles of war) over subjective terms (we'll tell you if we think you are having trouble paying). Objective, quantitative terms leave much less room for misunderstanding. In a situation such as this, where neither side trusts the other, I would venture that this kind of language is almost inevitable.

Edit: grammar.

Edited June 14, 2009 by bakamitai

[Essenia]

Actually Austria-Hungary started the war, and being the loser in a war Germany should be punished, but not to the degree it did.

Saying Austria-Hungary started the war is like saying GGA started the Hyperion part of the Coalition War. AH was in a slightly better situation, but they only went away because Germany encouraged them to do so and promised them full support

[Starcraftmazter]

We will gladly face war even should it last an eternity. It is the throwing down of our arms under nonsensical terms that causes misgivings.

But what you really mean is...

We will gladly face peace mode even should it last an eternity. It is the throwing down of our arms under nonsensical terms that causes misgivings.

[Essenia]

We will gladly face peace mode even should it last an eternity. It is the throwing down of our arms under nonsensical terms that causes misgivings.

Either way, it means that they'll be crippled and irrelevant. The great majority of nations in NPO have fought, that includes large nations as well. Maybe not as many as 'should' have fought but not a huge number either.

[Sequoia Throne]

But what you really mean is...

No, not at all. The vast majority of the alliance is fighting right now. There are some deserters, there are some ghosts, and there are some bankers in peace mode. Besides that, the entire alliance is fighting hard. I was 75k NS before this war, now I'm 15k NS. And I'd do it again in a heartbeat because outside of all the Karma propaganda, Pacifica takes care of its own and none of us care much for anything but casualty counts XD.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Straylight

[Starcraftmazter]

No, not at all. The vast majority of the alliance is fighting right now.

The vast majority of your alliance with any notable fighting capability is in peace mode, sitting on piles of money.