Do you think the current war will/had solve anything

[Lyria]

I'll believe it when I see it.

And see it you shall

[HeinousOne]

So... That grand ol' "Karma" logic says that Hegemony was organized enough to dominate Bob...

The numbers were fairly even....

Only they were so disorganized they lost a fairly even battle?

You guys don't make any sense. You try to claim every angle, hey, at least ONE of your claims may be accurate when the dust settles. Of course, you're bound to be right on some front when you claim to have done everything. Ever.

Except for all that icky bad stuff. We did all that, right?

Our morale was always high, as far as I see. There goes that. Whoops.

I know I had fun.

While the Continuum was complete it was indeed controlling by threat of numbers and power. Even a coalition of outside forces could not really gather enough to stand up to it let alone agree on such.

Then a funny thing happened. Some of those large numbers backing the Continuum began to pull away. That is when the balance changed and what has happened became possible. Look at how many ex tC members fought against the hegemony in this war in one way or another.

tC never really had to be very organized because it never faced a war large enough to require it. When you look at all that happened before hostilities really broke out in full you see that the remaining members of tC and 1V were defeated before the war even began. That doesn't lead to strong organization.

So while there may have been some folks making arguments that did not make perfect sense, the points you are arguing against are actually true. The Hegemony lost some of its members and those members all fought against the Hegemony. That makes for a large power shift. Did you not take that into account or are you for some reason still trying to defend the past of the hegemony at all costs?

[SithPie]

This war only showed people's true colors.

[Lord Brendan]

So... That grand ol' "Karma" logic says that Hegemony was organized enough to dominate Bob...

The numbers were fairly even....

Only they were so disorganized they lost a fairly even battle?

Our morale was always high, as far as I see. There goes that. Whoops.

I know I had fun.

No. Hegemony dominated as long as they had the numbers backing them and their allies were too afraid to speak up. Their strength was always in overwhelming numbers, and while a select few were organized, most were not. Very few were prepared for a real war because they only participated in curbstomps, whereas as much of Karma lived in fear of being curbstomped, and so was better prepared to fight.

I think you're the exception to the rule. Most of Hegemony seemed quite happy to fight for a week or so and bow out at the first possible opportunity: they fought reluctantly, following treaties because they had to, not because they believed in their cause, which was the case for most of Karma.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Did you miss 90% of Hegemony having no reparations?

Edited June 8, 2009 by Lord Brendan

[SithPie]

Only time will tell if karma will become an oppressive hegemony.

For the moment it is too early to tell.

But I for one will be watching and I advise others to also keep watch.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

We are the ones who must watch the watchman.

For if we do not, who will?

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. No matter if you're the NPO or Karma. Hell even GPA might have become a military state if they had the power NPO had.

[HeinousOne]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. No matter if you're the NPO or Karma. Hell even GPA might have become a military state if they had the power NPO had.

I do not see how anyone could think at this point that Karma nations will all stick together in some sort of bloc. No way, no how. They were united in opportunity but that is about it.

[PrideAssassin]

While the Continuum was complete it was indeed controlling by threat of numbers and power. Even a coalition of outside forces could not really gather enough to stand up to it let alone agree on such.

Then a funny thing happened. Some of those large numbers backing the Continuum began to pull away. That is when the balance changed and what has happened became possible. Look at how many ex tC members fought against the hegemony in this war in one way or another.

tC never really had to be very organized because it never faced a war large enough to require it. When you look at all that happened before hostilities really broke out in full you see that the remaining members of tC and 1V were defeated before the war even began. That doesn't lead to strong organization.

So while there may have been some folks making arguments that did not make perfect sense, the points you are arguing against are actually true. The Hegemony lost some of its members and those members all fought against the Hegemony. That makes for a large power shift. Did you not take that into account or are you for some reason still trying to defend the past of the hegemony at all costs?

I'm arguing more against the 500 or so reasons for *insert specific action here*.

I'm still learning who's who, and who's word is fairly solid, as opposed to the folks who say things just to say things, and trying to seperate the propoganda from the facts. Clumsily, but I'm tryin'.

Thank you.

No. Hegemony dominated as long as they had the numbers backing them and their allies were too afraid to speak up. Their strength was always in overwhelming numbers, and while a select few were organized, most were not. Very few were prepared for a real war because they only participated in curbstomps, whereas as much of Karma lived in fear of being curbstomped, and so was better prepared to fight.

I think you're the exception to the rule. Most of Hegemony seemed quite happy to fight for a week or so and bow out at the first possible opportunity: they fought reluctantly, following treaties because they had to, not because they believed in their cause, which was the case for most of Karma.

Did you miss 95% of Hegemony getting white peace?

Did you miss the peanut gallery screaming bloody murder about white peace? That chip ain't off the shoulder yet, and won't be for quite some time. I expect more maneuvering toward extracting something more than a simple beatdown in the future.

[Delta1212]

It should be noted that while this war has fairly successfully dispersed power over a much greater range, the peanut gallery still doesn't control the game.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Delta1212

[Emperor Stranger]

It will solve nothing besides ridding the world of the current dictator. All Karma is doing is replacing one dictator with another. (We will have to wait to see who the other is.) It's like everyone says: Karma wasn't here for peace, it's to get revenge on the NPO by doing precisely what the NPO did to them.

[Delta1212]

Then it isn't truly replacing one dictator with another so much as removing one dictator and then assuming that the rapid rise of a central power will be inevitable in the remaining vacuum. It's really not quite the same thing.

[Antetian I]

IRON was more than 5% of the Hegemony and we didn't get white peace...

[enderland]

It will solve nothing besides ridding the world of the current dictator. All Karma is doing is replacing one dictator with another. (We will have to wait to see who the other is.) It's like everyone says: Karma wasn't here for peace, it's to get revenge on the NPO by doing precisely what the NPO did to them.

Unless a new block has surfaced, there are quite a few non-majority blocs in existence right now.

Frostbite, CnG, SF, Citadel, Pegasus/Purple all have a lot of strength but not majority strength.

[Emperor Stranger]

Then it isn't truly replacing one dictator with another so much as removing one dictator and then assuming that the rapid rise of a central power will be inevitable in the remaining vacuum. It's really not quite the same thing.

There will always be a dictator. True freedom and peace is hope for the weak minded.

[Lord Brendan]

IRON was more than 5% of the Hegemony and we didn't get white peace...

I was speaking in terms of alliances, not strength. You made up 2% of Hegemony.

Admittedly though, it was probably more than 5% that received reparations. If it makes you happy, I'll edit my post to say 90%.

Did you miss the peanut gallery screaming bloody murder about white peace? That chip ain't off the shoulder yet, and won't be for quite some time. I expect more maneuvering toward extracting something more than a simple beatdown in the future.

I did observe people complaining when the alliances they considered responsible for several atrocities (Valhalla etc) were let off with easy peace. Not sure what your point is though. They still received easy peace, even it was begrudged by their former victims.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Lord Brendan

[Roadie]

I do not see how anyone could think at this point that Karma nations will all stick together in some sort of bloc. No way, no how. They were united in opportunity but that is about it.

I dunno. If you add up all the alliances fighting, NPO, TPF and Avalon that's a pretty big bloc that isn't going anywhere for a long, long time.

[Lord Brendan]

I dunno. If you add up all the alliances fighting, NPO, TPF and Avalon that's a pretty big bloc that isn't going anywhere for a long, long time.

One more reason for you to surrender.

[Mogar]

short answer, no.

[King DrunkWino]

Well, that all depends on what you saw or even if you saw a problem before the war.

Now going off the concept that "yes, you see a problem," then I don't know if the war is going to solve it. It just depends on what you saw as a problem. I can see eternal-ZI's happening less and less, so if that's the problem you saw, then yes. If you see a group of high powered alliances being able to dominate the game or insane surrender terms as problems, we're just going to have to see. Now things like sophomoric behavior, silly to hypocritical reasons to go to war, and general absurdity were things you see as a problem, then you'll be waiting a long time for that to be solved.

So, I'm guessing that this war will band-aid solve somethings. Other things, not so much.

[Prince Yvl]

Any Alliance NOT aiming for power is not doing their job.

That's quite an unusual opinion you have there, but please don't state it as a fact. GR prides itself not on power, but friendship and honor, just to give one example. It's quite simple-minded, honestly, to assume that power is the only thing to strive for in the world.

[Mogar]

That's quite an unusual opinion you have there, but please don't state it as a fact. GR prides itself not on power, but friendship and honor, just to give one example. It's quite simple-minded, honestly, to assume that power is the only thing to strive for in the world.

I am thinking the majority of CN is leaning towards this type of behavior, I'd rather simply be friends with people I like and not concern myself with "what if we get rolled" or "will I be able to roll anyone who opposes me".

[HeinousOne]

I dunno. If you add up all the alliances fighting, NPO, TPF and Avalon that's a pretty big bloc that isn't going anywhere for a long, long time.

It is not a bloc fighting NPO, TPF and Avalon. It is a response. The only reason you in TPF are still fighting honestly is because you choose to. The war against NPO would probably have been over by now too had they took the same approach as many other alliances such as yourselves.

Their strategy though is to drag this out and retain as much strength as possible through peace mode.

[Drai]

This war was simply certain alliances who wanted what NPO had, the top of the mountain, meeting up with grudge carriers in other alliances who wanted vengence and their plan to get to the top/revenge.

Not really. You could argue that it was to get NPO out of the top spot, but I don't think anybody in Karma is really intent on taking that #1 spot.

[astronaut jones]

There will always be a dictator. True freedom and peace is hope for the weak minded.

The problem now, is the new leader(s) think they're justifiable and honourable, which they think gives them carte blanche to do the exact same things as the last leaders, except they're doing it under the guise of change, and progress, and other lies and !@#$%^&*.

It's hypocritical and dishonest to label your actions as this sort of poetic justice when all you've succeeded in doing is assume the throne that you did nothing to deserve in the first place. There's no change. There's no freedom. Now everything is about public relations, about getting good press and showing the world at large how great you think you are for being hypocritical and dishonest, but getting away with it.

[astronaut jones]

Not really. You could argue that it was to get NPO out of the top spot, but I don't think anybody in Karma is really intent on taking that #1 spot.

Right, because karma is so open and honest about their intentions, that no one is going to want to take the #1 spot. Everyone is just going to be #2, we're all going to be equal, and PB is about to head into a utopian age.

Right.

[Prince Yvl]

Right, because karma is so open and honest about their intentions, that no one is going to want to take the #1 spot. Everyone is just going to be #2, we're all going to be equal, and PB is about to head into a utopian age.

Right.

Drai could have worded that better, but please, don't speak based on your feelings of rage alone. Firstly, Karma does not claim to be openly honest - we're not saints, we're, as was said a bit ago by Heinousone, a "response." But what he meant was that nobody in Karma is doing it JUST to be on top, though that's honestly debatable.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Prince Yvl