PrideAssassin Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 If anything, they were too eager to embrace their Hegemony defectors for a little boost in military strength and seriously undercut the legitimacy of their entire hydra-esque reasons(!) for being. (hence the joke) Ex hegemony fight for us! They good! Learn lesson! No evil anymore! See? Good guys! And they've learned their lesson about the evils of participating in curbstomps by... participating in curbstomps. Bravo! Not only has "Karma" murdered the Hegemony and the English language (you bloc-heads! ) they've also apparantly murdered logic. Poor logic. 'Twas a nice lass, she was... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Interesting to see a few ex-SUPAH-EVIL HEGEMONY O' DOOMZ! alliances currently at war with NPO.So... The core of "Karma" comprises elements of Q? lol K, I think I have it! Yeah, Sparta and MHA and TOP were definitely well known for their aggressive wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 If anything, they were too eager to embrace their Hegemony defectors for a little boost in military strength and seriously undercut the legitimacy of their entire hydra-esque reasons(!) for being. (hence the joke) Ex hegemony fight for us! They good! Learn lesson! No evil anymore! See? Good guys! And they've learned their lesson about the evils of participating in curbstomps by... participating in curbstomps. Bravo! Not only has "Karma" murdered the Hegemony and the English language (you bloc-heads! ) they've also apparantly murdered logic. Poor logic. 'Twas a nice lass, she was... This is rather ironic and amusing to me for obvious reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 If anything, they were too eager to embrace their Hegemony defectors for a little boost in military strength and seriously undercut the legitimacy of their entire hydra-esque reasons(!) for being. (hence the joke) Ex hegemony fight for us! They good! Learn lesson! No evil anymore! See? Good guys! And they've learned their lesson about the evils of participating in curbstomps by... participating in curbstomps. Bravo! Not only has "Karma" murdered the Hegemony and the English language (you bloc-heads! ) they've also apparantly murdered logic. Poor logic. 'Twas a nice lass, she was... Before this war started, many powers that be were still on the fence and Karma's own pre-war assessments showed an even fight at best. Hindsight is 20/20 and you calling this an obvious curbstomp from the beginning is ignorant at best. Perhaps if you were there for the pre-war chatter concerning alliance and NS numbers you would think differently. Either way, anyone can become a brilliant political commentator when they've already seen what happens. Secondly, I am immensely disappointed in you to say the least. Bashing people who fought you in a war is one thing but creating baseless libel against a treaty partner and supporter of your rebuilding efforts is entirely uncalled for and unnecessary. I've read some of your older posts and I just expected a more civil, level headed poster than what I've seen here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Yeah, Sparta and MHA and TOP were definitely well known for their aggressive wars. Yes, because MHA and TOP are known for their current wars against Pacifica. As to your second post, I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Yes, because MHA and TOP are known for their current wars against Pacifica. As to your second post, I agree. Actually the only one of those three fighting NPO is Sparta as MHA actually stated they will attack anyone who bandwagons NPO and TPO is not fighting them. Also the reason this was a curbstomp was that the Hegemony had no strategy of engagement, and most of the alliances just went "lolwar" and let themselves be destroyed. Well Valhalla/IRON/NPO at least provided almost no strategic coordination or attacks and the few times there was coordination, it was done poorly (valhallas deployment against PC and NPOs 'were letired' attack against VE). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) Before this war started, many powers that be were still on the fence and Karma's own pre-war assessments showed an even fight at best. Hindsight is 20/20 and you calling this an obvious curbstomp from the beginning is ignorant at best. Perhaps if you were there for the pre-war chatter concerning alliance and NS numbers you would think differently. Either way, anyone can become a brilliant political commentator when they've already seen what happens. Secondly, I am immensely disappointed in you to say the least. Bashing people who fought you in a war is one thing but creating baseless libel against a treaty partner and supporter of your rebuilding efforts is entirely uncalled for and unnecessary. I've read some of your older posts and I just expected a more civil, level headed poster than what I've seen here. Regarding the bolded passage, I implore you to point out where I libeled anyone in particular? Although I do thank you for being my unofficial guide through the political morass that is planet Bob. So now, good sir, we return to the lapse in continuity within the "Karma" yarn. The "CoC" scattered because they knew a curbstomp was coming, only they didn't know a curbstomp was coming because everything was even up at the onset, am I following this correctly? Of course, I'm throwing a popular "Karma" propoganda piece against your more accurate presentation of events. Edited for OOC content Edited June 8, 2009 by PrideAssassin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) Actually the only one of those three fighting NPO is Sparta as MHA actually stated they will attack anyone who bandwagons NPO and TPO is not fighting them.Also the reason this was a curbstomp was that the Hegemony had no strategy of engagement, and most of the alliances just went "lolwar" and let themselves be destroyed. Well Valhalla/IRON/NPO at least provided almost no strategic coordination or attacks and the few times there was coordination, it was done poorly (valhallas deployment against PC and NPOs 'were letired' attack against VE). Okay, I referenced the "core of Karma" who you claimed were the ones currently engaging NPO, and you trotted out MHA/TOP. Make up your mind man! My little monkey brain can't take all this. Pick a statement and stick with it before my head explodes! It may do my appearance some good though, that head exploding bit... IRON's only problems with coordination stem mainly from OOC the recent DDoS event, we still haven't wrangled up the less active forum members /OOC. It was a curbstomp because it was 9 on one. Edited June 8, 2009 by PrideAssassin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Conrad Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Regarding the bolded passage, I implore you to point out where I libeled anyone in particular?Although I do thank you for being my unofficial guide through the political morass that is planet Bob. So now, good sir, we return to the lapse in continuity within the "Karma" yarn. The "CoC" scattered because they knew a curbstomp was coming, only they didn't know a curbstomp was coming because everything was even up at the onset, am I following this correctly? Of course, I'm throwing a popular "Karma" propoganda piece against your more accurate presentation of events. Edited for OOC content Look back at your statements regarding former Q alliances. I'm sure you can figure out which I'm speaking of. I always assumed that most of the then remaining Q members scattered because they didn't believe in NPO's war against OV. If you say otherwise, well then that's your prerogative and would be speaking against your own alliance's outlooks. Anyways, look at when that infamous announcement was posted. During that time, the war was still very even. By this point we were mainly winning because of being overall better allocated in terms of resources on fronts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaoshawk Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Powers have shifted, new leaders are here and are moving into their new offices as the top. Oh and a lot of tension and stuff... It's 5 A.M. leave me alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) Okay, I referenced the "core of Karma" who you claimed were the ones currently engaging NPO, and you trotted out MHA/TOP. Make up your mind man! My little monkey brain can't take all this. Pick a statement and stick with it before my head explodes! It may do my appearance some good though, that head exploding bit... IRON's only problems with coordination stem mainly from OOC the recent DDoS event, we still haven't wrangled up the less active forum members /OOC. It was a curbstomp because it was 9 on one. So... The core of "Karma" comprises elements of Q? Those are the only recent ex-Q alliances fighting on Karmas side. I am also a bit skeptical of your abilities to intelligently comment on the issue of Karma when you do not even know which alliances MHA, TOP, or Sparta fought/are fighting. IRON still put up essentially no defense other than "ok guis come get us." And I am sure the majority of your nuclear nations were registered on the new forums. Edited June 8, 2009 by ender land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Look back at your statements regarding former Q alliances. I'm sure you can figure out which I'm speaking of.I always assumed that most of the then remaining Q members scattered because they didn't believe in NPO's war against OV. If you say otherwise, well then that's your prerogative and would be speaking against your own alliance's outlooks. Anyways, look at when that infamous announcement was posted. During that time, the war was still very even. By this point we were mainly winning because of being overall better allocated in terms of resources on fronts. I think you give me more credit than I deserve. I know quite bit less than you probably think I do. Call me an idjit (I do, it's fun!) but I'm not seein' what you're seein'. Once again, I tend to speak in general terms and address claims made by others. Evil hegemony who helps "Karma" = good upstanding people who have learned their lesson (whatever the lesson is...) vs. evil hegemony cowards who fought against those great upstanding "Karma" folk who needed lessons taught to them (again, whatever the lesson is supposed to be... I didn't catch which one it was. I suppose I can don a blindfold, toss a dart, and run with whatever one I hit upon, aye?) It's conflicting statements and beliefs such as those that I'm trying to figure out here. Maybe I poke and prod where it's not polite to poke and prod, but I'm only seeking whatever enlightenment will fit in my damaged widdle brain. Good evening, gentlemen, and thnks for the discourse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Those are the only recent ex-Q alliances fighting on Karmas side.I am also a bit skeptical of your abilities to intelligently comment on the issue of Karma when you do not even know which alliances MHA, TOP, or Sparta fought/are fighting. IRON still put up essentially no defense other than "ok guis come get us." And I am sure the majority of your nuclear nations were registered on the new forums. Ah, I'd seen allusions to Ragnarok's having been party to NPO's unspeakable evil. May be where I stumbled. I'm pretty new to Bob, so I'm still learning who and where everything was, let alone where they are now. I know quite well who MHA, TOP, and Sparta warred or are warring with, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynic2 Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Oh please. We know not all of us are saints, and I honestly can't even recall anyone claiming otherwise. We do know that as a whole, Karma is a far lesser evil than the Hegemony. But really, what are you expecting us to do? Refuse help because they have policies we don't agree with? I'm sure the Hegemony would love that. Well let's see, one of the rallying cries of the "karma" coalition is that EZI/PZI are evil and should not be allowed to happen ever again. Don't you see the blatant hypocrisy of accepting help from allances whose leaders gleefully partook in that very practice? The fact is that the karma coalition is nothing but a power grab by those who either never had it to begin with or wanted to return to a powerful position. I have no problem with it being a power grab, but at least be honest enough to admit that is what it is instead of cloaking it with turms such as "justice" and "retribution". The fact is that the NPO was on top when it was on top because it deserved to be there. It was shrew enough to separate its enemies and negotiate support from other large alliances to maintain its position of power. It has since lost that power because it failed to continue to feed that fire; maybe it lost its hunger, maybe it became arrogant and complacent, maybe its leadership changed and was inept. Whatever the case, the NPO lost this war not because it had been using mean and nasty tactics, but because it had failed to maintain the systems that allowed it to do so. By allowing the formation of Karma the NPO had already allowed for defeat.Conversely, the alliances who attacked the NPO did so because the opportunity was there and because they wanted the power that the NPO had. They could only do this by ganging up and outnumbering the NPO and its allies and so they did. The war has shifted the power around, yes, but now that the NPO has set a precedent of power such that it has don't think even for a second that the Karma alliances are content to sharing their power with eachother. Perhaps the middle level membership of these alliances were convinced by talk of justice, but their leadsership would be foolish not to attempt to try to use this conflict to further their alliance (and their closest allies) above all other Karma supporters. This is the prudent thing to do. Those alliances who do not do so will be overtaken, and the alliance that does this best will rise to power. That's all there is to it. This is one of the most accurate and observant posts that I have seen in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Only the names of our "oppressors" will change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime minister Johns Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Only time will tell if karma will become an oppressive hegemony. For the moment it is too early to tell. But I for one will be watching and I advise others to also keep watch. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? We are the ones who must watch the watchman. For if we do not, who will? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 It was a curbstomp because it was 9 on one. Nine on one? Where on earth did you pull that from? At the peak of the war, Karma was 150% the size of Hegemony. 3:2 odds is not a curbstomp. Let's look at some other wars from the past year: GPA-Q War: 5v1 NADC-BLEU War: 4v1 GATO-1V War: 8v1 Coalition War: 5v1 Those were curbstomps. The Karma War was not: it was about as even as a war on Planet Bob is going to get. Hegemony lost because while they were planning how to retreat, Karma was planning how to win. You had horrible strategy on an alliance level and on average Hegemony nations were way less prepared than Karma nations. Throw in your complete lack of any kind of morale (Hegemony basically accepted defeat before the war even started) and it becomes clear why you lost. But it sure wasn't because of some overwhelming strength advantage. I really must ask how 10% kept 90% down and how you can still make that claim after Karma has proven it false by stomping hegemony over a small thing like protecting a spy. In light of that fact, I don't see how hegemony ever kept anyone down. At one point a few months ago I calculated it, and Continuum + direct MDP allies made up 60% of the game's NS and 75% of the nukes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yggdrazil Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 150% using what data; Alliance strength, number of nations in opposing alliances,tech per member ratio,NS per member ratio, nuke count per member ratio etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 So... That grand ol' "Karma" logic says that Hegemony was organized enough to dominate Bob... The numbers were fairly even.... Only they were so disorganized they lost a fairly even battle? You guys don't make any sense. You try to claim every angle, hey, at least ONE of your claims may be accurate when the dust settles. Of course, you're bound to be right on some front when you claim to have done everything. Ever. Except for all that icky bad stuff. We did all that, right? Our morale was always high, as far as I see. There goes that. Whoops. I know I had fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Yvl Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) The sad thing is, you probably actually believe this. If nothing else Karma showed the power of propaganda on the masses. Certain propaganda masters actually convinced a large number of alliance members that they were being oppressed by NPO and certain cronies (the 1/2 of Q who ended up fighting basically). They made it seem that no one was allowed to prosper on Bob due to the NPO just keeping the jackboot on their throat at all times. Some alliance members, many of whom actually prospered through NPO/Q actions became openly resentful of NPO. I guess because they became convinced by their own Gov and other propagandists that they just couldn't do anything on Bob with NPO making off with their babies in the middle of the night. The Q members attacked in this war made up less than 10% of the total number of nations on CN at the start of the war. It's hard to believe that people could be convinced that under 10% were keeping over 90% down. But they were indeed convinced of it as these very forums are a written testament of it in action. As I've said many times in many threads during the course of the war. Karma = Hegemony because Karma is in large part made up of former Hegemonic alliances that allowed NPO to have it's 2 year "reign of terror" on the Cyberverse. This war was simply certain alliances who wanted what NPO had, the top of the mountain, meeting up with grudge carriers in other alliances who wanted vengence and their plan to get to the top/revenge. The vengence seekers just had to grin and bear up to being coalition mates with certain alliances who'd recently gave them a nice bit of the jackboot themselves. As they knew it was their only way to be able to topple NPO. Those who seek the power position to run their realpolitik on Bob counted heavily on all these people wanting that vengence to make this Karma war machine go. I do not believe for 1 second that this was just a jumbled group of alliances, who thought they didn't have the strength to win this war convincingly when the first shot was fired. I saw this because certain alliances would not have taken the path they did into this war without assured victory. They'd have remained with the Hegemony. tl/dr: for this section. Meet the new boss folks, just don't be surprised when it's the same as the old boss. My last topic, to those who insist on falling back on this CoC garbage as it has popped up from a certain poster in this thread and different posters in other threads. I'm 41 nukes taken and 45 or 46 days into the war fighting 1v4 or 1v3 almost the entire way and I'm still out on the front. The same goes for many of my alliance mates and our allies. I think it's about time to lay that CoC stuff to rest. Not many alliances on Bob have entered a war via a defensive treaty and taken the beating we have in any war in CN history and still refused to leave the battlefield after this long when they could have left a long time before. Frankly it's highly insulting to me that I've personally shed 80,000 NS along with basically everything else besides my nation name, while my alliance has shed millions and our allies millions more to honor our word and we still have people calling us cowards. If our involvment in this conflict at this point doesn't show our intent and commitment to honor a long standing treaty, nothing ever will. All we face from continuing our part of this war is the prospect of even more damage and then reps we will get on top of that. Mhawk can explain why he left TPF for a few minutes if he wants to rehash that story, but it wasn't because our cowardly members revolted and refused to fight so he stormed out and tried to fight on his own. This is actually a good post. First, lemme address the propaganda bit again. As I said earlier, I can't speak for the rest of Karma, but GR doesn't do serious propaganda, we have open discussions on past events. In any case, I believe you are mislabeling what's really going on for propaganda. All that's going on is a human mental error in many individuals at once - We see "NPO is on top" "NPO endorses EZI" "NPO wages meaningless wars" and form the conclusion that they are oppressing everyone, when it is in reality only the people that have pissed them off (which in truth isn't hard to do.) Yet, as I said earlier, though WE are not necessarily the ones being oppressed, we still see injustice for what it is, and wish to put an end to it. It's not propaganda - it's simple human thought processes. As for the numbers, you don't need to attack to support NPO and the Hegemony. When one alliance attacks, other alliances declare defensive wars, and that somehow opens the door for more allies to declare counter-defensive wars, until all of Planet Bob is engulfed in one bloodthirsty act of defense. Whether Hegemonic alliances declared due to an offensive clause or a defensive clause in a treaty, it makes no difference, because as long as someone retaliates, you're still going to join the attackers. Regarding the idea that Karma = Hegemony because we have former allies of NPO - that's just silly. The majority of Karma is made up of alliances like my own or MK which have hated NPO's style for a long time. We don't, nor will we in the near future pay homage to the alliances that helped NPO be what it is today. They don't "rule" Karma, they are but one out of many forces on our side of the war. And even if they did, we'd sooner take our chances than let things continue as they are now. And I've said it elsewhere, I'll say it here - I find it much easier to believe NPO was pissing off their allies enough for them to cancel their treaties than that everyone decided to chicken out. However, if this is what the public believes, than that's your own fault for proceeding in a way that gives them such an easy target. So... That grand ol' "Karma" logic says that Hegemony was organized enough to dominate Bob...The numbers were fairly even.... Only they were so disorganized they lost a fairly even battle? First, haven't you already made enough of a fool of yourself arguing semantics in this thread? Second, is it that hard to understand that they made a mistake in their organization this time, and paid for it? Please think more clearly, Karma isn't stupid - we may have differing opinions, but we're not retarded hypocrites the way you seem to see us. Edited June 8, 2009 by Prince Yvl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Look back at your statements regarding former Q alliances. I'm sure you can figure out which I'm speaking of.I always assumed that most of the then remaining Q members scattered because they didn't believe in NPO's war against OV. If you say otherwise, well then that's your prerogative and would be speaking against your own alliance's outlooks. Anyways, look at when that infamous announcement was posted. During that time, the war was still very even. By this point we were mainly winning because of being overall better allocated in terms of resources on fronts. Wasn't that like 2 days into the war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I just find it amusing that every action/causation theory/mission statement seems to have 15 different versions. (I pulled that number out of thin air) There are lucid intelligent people flying the "Karma" banner. Quite a few of you seem to have your heads on straight. I'm referring more to those who like to play in the dirt and pop off with outrageous claims. As I've said before, people are people. There's no higher purpose because "Karma" is no better or no worse than all who came before it. Nothing will change human nature. I'd just like to see a little objectivity and honesty. Any Alliance NOT aiming for power is not doing their job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 At one point a few months ago I calculated it, and Continuum + direct MDP allies made up 60% of the game's NS and 75% of the nukes. So Q - at one point - was 60% of the games total NS and at the time of the war were 10%? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyria Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Nothing will change human nature. I'd just like to see a little objectivity and honesty. I trust you gleaned this from your scientific analysis of history and decided that because you found it to be true among the Vladimirs, DarkMistresses, Bilrows, and Slayers of the world, it will be true of the Hellangels, Archons, and Deltas. Learn this. We are not all the same. We were not all cut from the same mold. If those who find themselves in power now seek to run things differently, then things will be run differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrideAssassin Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 I'll believe it when I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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