New Pacific Order Reps Race

[Jack Diorno]

Demanding that their nations come out of peace mode prior to terms being negotiated and NPOs security being assured is just plain ridiculous and stinks of ulterior motives. I don’t think the NPO is as naive to think that such terms would be forthcoming, especially from a rag-tag group that has neither the ability nor desire to enforce such constraints among its coalition.

I have no idea how long this war will last and what the end terms will be, but I am sure that whatever reps are decided upon will have nothing to do with this empty threat from Karma's self appointed leadership.

I can't see any ulterior motives, Karma wants to weaken NPO so there are no repercussions too soon. If NPO doesn't accept this offer and wants to continue fighting then that achieves the same outcome, just a more arduous task.

[BamaBuc]

The difference is in the reasoning for war, Bama.

Let me put this in perspective.

Say there's two alliances, A and B.

Alliance A spies on you, recruits from you, tries to convince your allies to attack you, and has been spying away your nukes for a month now.

Alliance B has done nothing at all.

Now, you go to war with both alliances, and both alliances hit peace mode en masse.

At this point, what do you do? Alliance A has wronged you, do you just pack up and go home without hurting them whatsoever simply because the opportunity is not there? How does that make any sense whatsoever? You're there to teach them a lesson, rightfully so. You shouldn't simply give up because the popular opinion says it's a "bad" thing to do.

Now with alliance B. The reason you want to hurt them is because you *want* to hurt them. And at this point, forcing them out of peace mode IS unjust.

The fact is, Bama. They deserve punishment, GATO did not.

Therein lies the problem. "deserving it" is subjective. NPO clearly thought GATO "deserved it" for letting CK back in. You disagree. I was on the fence... To me, it was semi-valid because the person who covered the CK thing up was GATO's leader at the time of the war, but the supposed crime had happened so long ago. Would you say that Polar "deserved it"? A lot of people think they did. A lot of those people are on your side now. Did \m/ "deserve it"? Plenty of people thought they did. Did Atlantis "deserve it"? There was evidence that they spied. Did NADC "deserve it"? They were accused of spying away nukes.

Everyone thinks their enemies "deserve it", for whatever reason. But the peace mode crap is stupid, no matter who does it. If you want them to stay out of hippy, learn to do a freaking stagger. How dare they entrench for a long one if you let them? No offense man, but them being in hippy is on you.

-Bama

[VIdiot the Great]

Your assumptions are wrong.

How so? I'm interested to hear, as I happen to agree with Vlad's position from the standpoint that unless base line terms and length of war was offered, any such 'penalty' imposed for peace mode nations is a meaningless penalty.

[BamaBuc]

These terms are crap, and pretty much anyone who calls you a hypocrite for saying it is ignoring theri own hypocrisy while they do it.

(also I object to you calling me a hypocrite )

Shut up, hypocrite!

Seriously though, this is why I respect you... You never let your perspective blind you. You never follow a party line. Most "free thinkers" are merely sheep who follow different shepherds. You're not.

-Bama

[magicninja]

Karma went about it all wrong. There will come a time when the side reps are larger than the actual surrender reps. There is no incentive for them to do anything. If you try to enforce that you guys will look like clowns.

The better strategy would have been to tell Pacifica they had 7 days to get as many as possible out of peace for 1 round of wars by a certain day before they got offered the terms of surrender then have flat rates for the percentages of nations that stayed in peace mode. You could have made those numbers steep to offer some incentive to take the damage rather than the reps. This adding on per day thing isn't going to work. By the end Pacifica could conceivably be looking at hundreds of billions in cash and half a million tech on the side of whatever the real reps would be. C'mon are you guys really ready to ask for that?

[Virillus]

Therein lies the problem. "deserving it" is subjective. NPO clearly thought GATO "deserved it" for letting CK back in. You disagree. I was on the fence... To me, it was semi-valid because the person who covered the CK thing up was GATO's leader at the time of the war, but the supposed crime had happened so long ago. Would you say that Polar "deserved it"? A lot of people think they did. A lot of those people are on your side now. Did \m/ "deserve it"? Plenty of people thought they did. Did Atlantis "deserve it"? There was evidence that they spied. Did NADC "deserve it"? They were accused of spying away nukes.

Everyone thinks their enemies "deserve it", for whatever reason. But the peace mode crap is stupid, no matter who does it. If you want them to stay out of hippy, learn to do a freaking stagger. How dare they entrench for a long one if you let them? No offense man, but them being in hippy is on you.

-Bama

Of course it's subjective. But judging us as hypocrits because we don't agree with your subjective point of view is asinine.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Virillus

[James Wilson]

Sorry sweetheart, I along with several people care about what Bama has to post.

I didn't think I would have to explain this but that was a general statement. I ment no disrespect towards Bama even though I quoted his post. Do look at the bigger picture next time buddy.

[bzelger]

You know what I've figured out? We're all hypocrites. All of us. Myself included. I'm speaking out against these terms, but I didn't speak out when this was done to GATO. I didn't like it, I thought it was wrong, but I said nothing. I wish I had had the balls to say something, but I didn't. For that, I am a hypocrite. I freely admit it. But I'm speaking up now. Call me a hypocrite, but I see an injustice, and I'm speaking up. I have as much right to do that as anyone. I'm not a fan of everything NPO does or has done. Heck, if you ask me, the CB for this war was crap. NPO is gonna get some harsh terms. Okay. I get that. Fine. But you're as hypocritical as I am, because if NPO did this to anyone, even someone who "deserved it", you would hate it. I mean, come on, pre-terms? We are all hypocrites. But he who does not hold himself to the standards to which he holds others is the worst kind of hypocrite. Take that as you will.

-Bama

This wasn't done to GATO. GATO was given far worse. What would you do if you were Karma in this situation? This is refraining to sink to their level and making an effort to resolve the war, this is holding to a higher standard. You may be correct that it's not going to be effective, but railing against it doesn't really help. Offer a better idea.

[Virillus]

How so? I'm interested to hear, as I happen to agree with Vlad's position from the standpoint that unless base line terms and length of war was offered, any such 'penalty' imposed for peace mode nations is a meaningless penalty.

We are not doing this for an excuse to put them intoo eternal war, we do not wish to ZI the lot of them. (Well, some of us do... Revanche:P)

This is being done for 1 reason and 1 reason only: To end this war faster. We have terms, I've seen them. And I can honestly say they are very lenient, whether you choose to believe me or not is your own prerogative, obviously, but all I can say is the truth.

[Seerow]

I'm the Minister of Defense for the Greenland Republic.

I might know what I'm talking about.

Wait you managed to get another position in military after the Unjust War?

Wow. Just wow.

[magicninja]

We are not doing this for an excuse to put them intoo eternal war, we do not wish to ZI the lot of them. (Well, some of us do... Revanche:P)

This is being done for 1 reason and 1 reason only: To end this war faster. We have terms, I've seen them. And I can honestly say they are very lenient, whether you choose to believe me or not is your own prerogative, obviously, but all I can say is the truth.

Then why wait? Why use this as a way to bolster the reps? Seems you guys are just being greedy now. You're not helping.

[Virillus]

Then why wait? Why use this as a way to bolster the reps? Seems you guys are just being greedy now. You're not helping.

Read my response to Bama's post.

[James Wilson]

Then why wait? Why use this as a way to bolster the reps? Seems you guys are just being greedy now. You're not helping.

Well, all they have to do is leave peace mode.

[Nizzle]

Your assumptions are wrong.

You, sir, win the thread for your outstanding abilities to discuss and debate a good post. I can tell you fought with yourself over how to respond, and what points to disprove, but ended up taking the high road with a one liner.

[Nizzle]

Read my response to Bama's post.

If you guys actually thought giving terms to PM nations, without presenting anything else, was going to end the war faster than you really haven't been paying attention to anything for the last two years or so.

Well, all they have to do is leave peace mode.

Even their vaunted hippy shield won't save them now!

Edited May 28, 2009 by Nizzle

[Elderago]

lets be honest here NPO put themselves into this position, they could have taken terms (albit those were quite slanted) and they didn't.

there is no threats of E-ZI or P-ZI if the except terms, they did not violate any previous terms (like fan), this whole war is different from the end of the unjust war, were by and large a whole lot of alliances were force to disband.

[Virillus]

Wait you managed to get another position in military after the Unjust War?

Wow. Just wow.

Yeah man, I've been re-elected for 6 months straight. Now here's my question to you: If you ever made a mistake in your life ever, would you eternally condemn yourself and live in depression? Or would you shrug your shoulders and learn from it?

I ask this, because it appears that you seem to lack any sort of awareness on how people actually function. That is, making mistakes and then learning from them.

[Heft]

This is just stupid. "Pre-terms" don't make any sense. While what was done to GATO may have been cruel, this isn't even an effective policy (of course, neither was that, really).

[James Wilson]

Even their vaunted hippy shield won't save them now!

I c wut u did thar...

And your correct. It won't save them.

[Virillus]

You, sir, win the thread for your outstanding abilities to discuss and debate a good post. I can tell you fought with yourself over how to respond, and what points to disprove, but ended up taking the high road with a one liner.

I've written up several responses throughout this thread. If you can't find them, let me know and I'll link you.

[bzelger]

Then why wait? Why use this as a way to bolster the reps? Seems you guys are just being greedy now. You're not helping.

The alternative to monetary penalties is specific threats against nations in peace mode in the mold of the NPO. There was a decision to not stoop to their level.

The coalition must retain its flexibility to achieve its goals, therefore no rigid timelines can reasonably be offered. The NPO doesn't get to call any shots and has earned no concessions. The coalition must decisively win. The NPO has clearly stated that its position is that surrendering isn't a loss, it's taking advantage of the enemies' good will until such time as they can turn the tables. The peace agreement is not the end of the war for them, it's a ceasefire to let them get on top. Leaving their top tier largely intact is not a viable option.

Again, what would you do to try to bring the war to a swift conclusion in a reasonable manner?

Edited June 14, 2009 by bzelger

[youwish959]

Allow me to clarify for those still claiming not to understand our position. We have been offered 'pre-terms'. That is to say, we have been told 'do this', and offered nothing in return. Absolutely nothing.

They say they will put up the reps the longer we are in peace, but so what? There is no base number for these reps to increase from, so it means nothing to us -- any number could just be pulled out of thin air later on. They say the war will end sooner if we accept, but so what? There has been no set end to the war that it can retract from. In fact we have been told numbers here and there, and every time that number is reached it magically reduces on the basis that 'Karma is a loose coalition and nobody speaks for it', This is the same excuse used by so many failed alliances over the years to act ridiculously with impunity, and not one that inspires a great deal of trust in you to keep your word, since any word is only the opinion of one member, and thus doesn't really exist.

So we are receiving non-existent demands from a a non-existent entity. We could accept and then be in war for the next five years for all we know, only to receive reps of infinite dollars at the end of it. From our perspective the pre-term amounts to 'let us hit you really, really hard, and then, one day, somewhere down the line, at an undefined time, we might, if we feel nice, and you are sufficiently destroyed for our liking, consider maybe giving you undefined terms that could amount to anything and that will probably be designed to force you into rejecting anyway'. Or, in other words, it amounts to 'destroy your own alliance for us plz, thx'.

Like I said, designed to be refused so that the 'I don't want to hurt you, you're forcing me to do it' reasoning can come out to justify eternal war, which in turn is just a tad contradictory to the prominent assertion that war will continue until the Order has been destroyed anyway. The incentive to accept such pre-terms, or indeed, any pre-terms at all, is nil. When you want peace, come to the table with something substantive, anything else is nothing more than fodder for your propagandists.

After you guys lost GW I, you guys made a comeback and dominated for almost what, 3 years? Why can't you guys just surrender and make another come back?

[Nizzle]

lets be honest here NPO put themselves into this position, they could have taken terms (albit those were quite slanted) and they didn't.

there is no threats of E-ZI or P-ZI if the except terms, they did not violate any previous terms (like fan), this whole war is different from the end of the unjust war, were by and large a whole lot of alliances were force to disband.

All they need to do is come out and fight the war for real. Then they may be given peace, for we are merciful.

Am I doing it right?

[King Srqt]

Allow me to clarify for those still claiming not to understand our position. We have been offered 'pre-terms'. That is to say, we have been told 'do this', and offered nothing in return. Absolutely nothing.

They say they will put up the reps the longer we are in peace, but so what? There is no base number for these reps to increase from, so it means nothing to us -- any number could just be pulled out of thin air later on. They say the war will end sooner if we accept, but so what? There has been no set end to the war that it can retract from. In fact we have been told numbers here and there, and every time that number is reached it magically reduces on the basis that 'Karma is a loose coalition and nobody speaks for it', This is the same excuse used by so many failed alliances over the years to act ridiculously with impunity, and not one that inspires a great deal of trust in you to keep your word, since any word is only the opinion of one member, and thus doesn't really exist.

So we are receiving non-existent demands from a a non-existent entity. We could accept and then be in war for the next five years for all we know, only to receive reps of infinite dollars at the end of it. From our perspective the pre-term amounts to 'let us hit you really, really hard, and then, one day, somewhere down the line, at an undefined time, we might, if we feel nice, and you are sufficiently destroyed for our liking, consider maybe giving you undefined terms that could amount to anything and that will probably be designed to force you into rejecting anyway'. Or, in other words, it amounts to 'destroy your own alliance for us plz, thx'.

Like I said, designed to be refused so that the 'I don't want to hurt you, you're forcing me to do it' reasoning can come out to justify eternal war, which in turn is just a tad contradictory to the prominent assertion that war will continue until the Order has been destroyed anyway. The incentive to accept such pre-terms, or indeed, any pre-terms at all, is nil. When you want peace, come to the table with something substantive, anything else is nothing more than fodder for your propagandists.

If I am understanding this situation correctly I do not believe these 'pre-terms' are something for you to accept or reject they are merely meant to be some sort of statement of fact. According to Revanche some magic number has already been agreed on and they will increas that number accordingly until the war ends based on the criteria they gave. That is not to say that your reaction is wrong however your assertion that you rejected these pre-terms seems off as I do not believe it is something you can actually reject. (unless all you mean by that is that you will not allow this to coerce you out of PM in which case that is how I personally expected you to react and how I myself also would have reacted.)

Shut up, hypocrite!

Seriously though, this is why I respect you... You never let your perspective blind you. You never follow a party line. Most "free thinkers" are merely sheep who follow different shepherds. You're not.

-Bama

Thank you that means a lot coming from someone of your character.

[muffasamini]

I can't see any ulterior motives, Karma wants to weaken NPO so there are no repercussions too soon. If NPO doesn't accept this offer and wants to continue fighting then that achieves the same outcome, just a more arduous task.

I'm not going to argue the validity, sense or justness of these pre-terms, that is not for me to decide. Only KARMA alliance leaders have the power to end or maintain this war how they see fit.

However, I'd like to clarify something for anyone that hasn't gotten it yet. These are NOT peace terms. If we accept these terms, we will NOT get peace. These are peace mode terms, meaning that they are penalties for having our banks and senators in PM and having fighters cycle in and out of it. If we accept them we do not get peace, we actually dont get anything, but we stop accruing penalties.