Siberian Tiger Alliance Announcement

[Poobah]

We never said don't include Argent, I was hardly aware of who you were. I'm guessing the guy telling you this stuff (youmaka) is a bit bitter over him being outed as blackstone and later acting as a Vox agent. The way to make a bloc work is to talk to a few key alliances to get them on board, then proceed from there. We never fully got the folks we were aiming for on board (tool) so the project was dropped.

Yes, as a government member of a white alliance since its founding, YouMaka is the only ex or current white government member I'm friends with that was included in your talks.

[mhawk]

Mhawk likes to tell people that TPF has changed, and yes in the physical sense it has changed. The government? Yeah, it's allllll different. Techncially he's right.

What he doesn't tell you is, Mhawk and the rest of TPF government, the new guys, have continued the same agenda that the old leaders had. It's the same TPF as it always was, up to the same tricks they always did, and they made no attempt at all to change when they took over.

But yeah, "technically" the government changed. "Technically" TPF is different. So he wants brownie points for that.

What are the same old tricks? Hell when I even announced we'd try for a bloc, slayer flipped out. You'll recall very well he was the one on white most opposed to blocs, even going after Atlantis for one. You keep chattering about everything is still the same, yet you have no basis for any of it, even in the face of an obvious radical departure from slayer's FA.

[Roadie]

Mhawk likes to tell people that TPF has changed, and yes in the physical sense it has changed. The government? Yeah, it's allllll different. Techncially he's right.

What he doesn't tell you is, Mhawk and the rest of TPF government, the new guys, have continued the same agenda that the old leaders had. It's the same TPF as it always was, up to the same tricks they always did, and they made no attempt at all to change when they took over.

But yeah, "technically" the government changed. "Technically" TPF is different. So he wants brownie points for that.

Would this agenda he continues be the one about not letting you run TPF?

[mhawk]

Yes, as a government member of a white alliance since its founding, YouMaka is the only ex or current white government member I'm friends with that was included in your talks.

Perhaps you should take his testimony with a grain of salt given his strong personal feelings toward us. Including still owing reps that were part of his blackstone/Vox/roguing out deal (a tech deal) that we never pursued. He lies, and has done it often.

Edited May 10, 2009 by mhawk

[William Blake]

SNOW was never about white unity, it was about tC and 1V controlling white.

o/ STA

Wow, amazing post. Please tell me you were just being facetious. I'm sure someone else got this already but that was just an incredibly misinformed post. I didn't realize TOOL was in either of those blocs, or that UCN or FEAR were (the first two members), or that STA or TGE were (the next two to join). There obviously have never been any 1V ties to White, and TPF was the 6th alliance to join SNOW being the only tie to tC. How the hell was SNOW about tC/1V controlling White?

Anyway on a more serious note. Sorry to see this happen but given the circumstances it is completely understandable. STA has always been one of the most active members of SNOW, Tyga playing a large role himself, which has always been appreciated by TOOL. I hope that we can reassess any issues with the actual SNOW document and also the current issues on White to get things moving in the right direction. I appreciate the way in which STA has conducted themselves regarding this situation and look forward to reestablishing ties with them.

[bzelger]

I'd just like to remind everyone that this thread is about the evil STA's withdrawal from an economic treaty for the purpose of wreaking malicious havoc on our own home, not about some bloc I didn't know about until just now (we don't do blocs even if we were invited ).

[Poobah]

Perhaps you should take his testimony with a grain of salt given his strong personal feelings toward us. Including still owing reps that were part of his Vox/roguing out deal (a tech deal) that we never pursued.

I don't think you detected my sarcasm.

[astronaut jones]

Would this agenda he continues be the one about not letting you run TPF?

Nah, but I'd make a much better leader than anyone in TPF currently.

[mhawk]

I don't think you detected my sarcasm.

Well by all means let me know who said we told folks not to invite argent, because they are lying.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

If you were Defcon triumvir there you should know more about these talks or you don't remember things? There was some alliances who wanted to invite STA.

Also good old days, Defcon was a good alliance.

Good times indeed.

Also Poobah don't take it too hard. If anything TOOL was never interested one bit and SSSW18 was only invited once their upgrade in the next coming days was for sure.

In the end that bloc was never going to work as a military pact on white never will. I'm sad to see STA leave SNOW because I know how much work TOOL puts into it and has tried to keep it politics free. I know for a fact they were furious about the loop hole TPF/OPP pursued last August.

Good luck to the white team on further nurturing your relations.

[astronaut jones]

What are the same old tricks? Hell when I even announced we'd try for a bloc, slayer flipped out. You'll recall very well he was the one on white most opposed to blocs, even going after Atlantis for one. You keep chattering about everything is still the same, yet you have no basis for any of it, even in the face of an obvious radical departure from slayer's FA.

No one has ever accused slayer of being EDITED BECAUSE IT MIGHT GET ME IN TROUBLEZ

Your treatment of alliances and people, however, has not changed. You went and joined a bloc? Good for you, you did what every other alliance had done, welcome to the party. You're still the same, you still treat people and alliances the same, you still harbour the same grudges and you still don't know how to get TPF out of the hole you keep digging.

Telling you, put me in charge, 6 months from now you can take over again. I know what needs to be done, love.

Edited May 10, 2009 by astronaut jones

[Poobah]

Well by all means let me know who said we told folks not to invite argent, because they are lying.

Yes, I will tell you, the leader of an alliance that has been hostile towards us in the past (calling our leaders irrelevant and whatnot) and apparently also hostile towards us behind closed doors, some of my friends who were telling me things that you do not want me to know.

How about you reveal your sources as to finding out about YouMaka in a supposed spy ring?

Edited May 10, 2009 by Poobah

[mhawk]

No one has ever accused slayer of being EDITED BECAUSE IT MIGHT GET ME IN TROUBLEZ

Your treatment of alliances and people, however, has not changed. You went and joined a bloc? Good for you, you did what every other alliance had done, welcome to the party. You're still the same, you still treat people and alliances the same, you still harbour the same grudges and you still don't know how to get TPF out of the hole you keep digging.

Telling you, put me in charge, 6 months from now you can take over again. I know what needs to be done, love.

harbour the same grudges? with whom? I get people coming to me all the time about WN/WS, nordreich, Nov. We don't care and don't pursue any of it. I worked my best to deal and mend with PC, those efforts failed, however was drastically different than anything slayer did. No you cite no evidence aside from very vague "you don't treaty people nice" statements.

[Bernkastel]

We never said don't include Argent, I was hardly aware of who you were.

Aren't you just the cutest?

Also, hi mhawk.

I'm not bitter, not in the least. I have no reason to be. You are getting what you deserve and I'm sitting back watching you go down... and I'm enjoying it more than you can ever imagine.

DefCon disbanded because 3/4 (2 Triums and the Elder Statesman) of the top govt were implicated, don't you remember?

It's one of those things I'd do over again and make it not happen. Another thing would clearly be to cancel that MDoAP we held with TPF, since I had the votes to do it. There's many things I wish I could have done. Oh well.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Balsamic Vinegar

[mhawk]

Yes, I will tell you, the leader of an alliance that has been hostile towards us in the past (calling our leaders irrelevant and whatnot) and apparently also hostile towards us behind closed doors, some of my friends who were telling me things that you do not want me to know.

How about you reveal your sources as to finding out about YouMaka in a supposed spy ring?

Slayer very much had an ooc issue with your member, that has no bearing to any of our decisions. And whatever he said if he did say it about you guys not invited was never discussed at any top levels of gov.

[Poobah]

Slayer very much had an ooc issue with your member, that has no bearing to any of our decisions. And whatever he said if he did say it about you guys not invited was never discussed at any top levels of gov.

Doesn't change the fact that it was said in an IC forum when he was still a government member of your alliance. Our allies had to talk to Slayer and tell you guys to knock that !@#$ off.

If your leader said it on IRC, great. Since it was said here, it's different.

[Duncan King]

The discussions were started on a board Great Lakes Union and I created on December 28, 2008. The most recent discussions were an idea that GLU had and asked me to help with the logistics (forums, drafting, etc).

The last post in the talks section dates back to February 19, but most of the negotiations were over around January 26. It was called off because many of the alliances that took part weren't comfortable with a multiparty ODP or a NAP.

I can't speak for everyone, but my impression was that STA was not asked to take part because they were still under terms at the time. Additionally, some thought that they wouldn't be interested anyway, and apparently decided save the step of having them refuse, and decided not to ask them. As for Argent, they were still a TOOL protectorate when the negotiations started and by January 13, when Argent was upgraded to an MDoAP, talks had pretty much cooled down and it was starting to look really unlikely that it would pass. I don't recall any decision not to ask Argent, I think some figured they'd be covered under TOOL and others just forgot about them.

I was going through a tough time OOC and didn't have time to really be that active during negotiations. I didn't push some things that maybe I should have, including making sure STA and Argent were asked, and for that, I'm sorry.

[mhawk]

Doesn't change the fact that it was said in an IC forum when he was still a government member of your alliance. Our allies had to talk to Slayer and tell you guys to knock that !@#$ off.

If your leader said it on IRC, great. Since it was said here, it's different.

Embers are not gov members. As funny as that sentence sounds.

[Poobah]

I didn't push some things that maybe I should have, including making sure STA and Argent were asked, and for that, I'm sorry.

Don't even try to make this out like you simply forgot about us DK. It's common knowledge that you were still angry at me over actions as a past character, and as you admitted yourself, were jealous of us.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Poobah

[Salmia]

Don't even try to make this out like you simply forgot about us DK. It's common knowledge that you were still angry at me over actions as a past character, and as you admitted yourself, were jealous of us.

I can't speak for DK or others, but at that time, talks mainly were cooling down. Argent was still a protectorate and TPF really hadn't heard of you guys by then. The upgrade came after it was pretty much clear that the bloc wasn't going to work out and there wasn't much hope for it. I really doubt it had to do with personal reasons as much as it did with the bloc just not going anywhere.

[Poobah]

I can't speak for DK or others, but at that time, talks mainly were cooling down. Argent was still a protectorate and TPF really hadn't heard of you guys by then. The upgrade came after it was pretty much clear that the bloc wasn't going to work out and there wasn't much hope for it. I really doubt it had to do with personal reasons as much as it did with the bloc just not going anywhere.

That's great that TPF hadn't heard of us, but you and UCN had. The fact that we were not even informed of this is disheartening to say the least.

[Duncan King]

Don't even try to make this out like you simply forgot about us DK. It's common knowledge that you were still angry at me over actions as a past character, and as you admitted yourself, were jealous of us.

Knock off the smear campaign, Poobah. Believe it or not, not everything I do or did was motivated by you.

There were eight different alliances involved in those talks, Poobah, including Argent's protector, TOOL. Perhaps you should talk to some them about why you weren't invited. I can only speak for myself, not others, and I was there mostly as support help to Great Lakes Union, who did most of the legwork. [OOC, I was busy in school and my activity was way down.[/OOC]

As I said, the discussions were basically over by the time you MDoAPed TOOL. The MDoAP part failed and the ODP part did as well. Pretty much everyone but TPF and it's immediate allies were against the treaty.

As for those that accuse TOOL of making SNOW political, they did everything they did to keep the politics out. It literally would not have existed without them, and for that they should be commended.

Edited May 10, 2009 by Duncan King

[Salmia]

That's great that TPF hadn't heard of us, but you and UCN had. The fact that we were not even informed of this is disheartening to say the least.

Yes, TOOL didn't invite you as a protectorate at the time... and by the time you had upgraded, talks had died. What is the point of inviting to something that TOOL had turned down anyways? It is a mountain out of a molehill.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

That's great that TPF hadn't heard of us, but you and UCN had. The fact that we were not even informed of this is disheartening to say the least.

You're making it a bigger deal than it really is. TPF did the same with its own protectorate until it was known that an upgrade announcement would be made it the coming days.

I'm not the biggest fan of TPF, but I don't believe any potential signatory was attempting to alienate Argent. STA on the other hand was left out on purpose and it was well known among everyone. I believe that is a large reason TOOL didn't join - among many others.

[Poobah]

Knock off the smear campaign, Poobah. Believe it or not, not everything I do or did was motivated by you.

There were eight different alliances involved in those talks, Poobah, including Argent's protector, TOOL. Perhaps you should talk to some them about why you weren't invited. I can only speak for myself, not others, and I was there mostly as support help to Great Lakes Union, who did most of the legwork. [OOC, I was busy in school and my activity was way down.[/OOC]

As I said, the discussions were basically over by the time you MDoAPed TOOL. The MDoAP part failed and the ODP part did as well. Pretty much everyone but TPF and it's immediate allies were against the treaty.

As for those that accuse TOOL of making SNOW political, they did everything they did to keep the politics out. It literally would not have existed without them, and for that they should be commended.

I think many of your views of Argent were motivated by me. May just be my ego talking though. It was common knowledge that you didn't like us (as some of your ex-government members have told me, hello nahz), and the fact that you're sorry that you didn't try to include us is far-fetched in my mind.

Oh, and don't pretend like you know what we plan on saying or not saying to TOOL.

Not everything I say is a smear campaign, DK. Stop trying to paint yourself as a victim that I have constantly belittled.