Siberian Tiger Alliance Announcement

[BamaBuc]

Yeah, four months later the Charter was amended but the horse had already bolted. Now 5 months after the change here we are with people abusing the STA for leaving SNOW (legally and legitimately) and "ditching" their "NAP partners", the same "NAP partners" that sat back and watched as OPP joined others in kicking our carcass around for a month. The same "NAP partners" that then demanded massive reparations from the STA when the war was over. The same "NAP partners" that did not respond to my mentioning of the fact that SNOW signatories can circumvent the NAP clause by calling their protectorates in (while still enjoying full access to SNOW facilities) for 2 weeks after it was raised, the discussion lasting one day and 3 posts with no mention of any action being taken to close the loophole or rectify the situation.

Now it is revealed in this thread that alliances on white bleating about "white unity" were discussing another bloc to replace SNOW without anyone bothering to tell me about it.

And white team alliances have the audacity to abuse the STA for leaving SNOW. The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

During my time in SNOW, STA was frequently left out of updates on what was happening and I'd only find out days or weeks later when I chatted to Mia on IRC. As leader of the STA, I encouraged our guys to register on the SNOW forum and get involved in trade circles there. As Mia confirmed, I offered advice and assistance to her when she took over as head of SNOW.

If you guys really wanted to close that loophole, you'd have done it straightway. But it took your four months to get around to it and I never saw any discussion on it at all until the treaty amendment was announced. I guess you needed to keep the loophole open in case OPP needed to attack us again for peace terms violations, I can think of no other reason for months of inaction over a serious flaw in the treaty.

My advice, lose the NAP clause. It is utterly pointless. Although now the SNOW signatories are homogeneous now, it may not be such an issue anymore.

Really, Tyga? I agree with you on the people blasting STA. They're wrong. But, wow. The entire White Team is not out to get you, if you can believe it. You know as well as I do how slow things move on SNOW. As for the bloc, you really need to get the full story before you call conspiracy. Not only did TOOL, FEAR, DefCon and others turn down the bloc almost straight away (which about ended any possibility of it happening), it would not have replaced SNOW. TOOL made it clear that even if our other concerns were addressed, we would never sign if it supplanted SNOW. IIRC, any talk of a replacement econ forum associated with the bloc went away after that. Furthermore, I can assure you that SNOW never deliberately kept you or anyone out of the loop. Communication was bad across the board until Mia took over. Really, why you think TOOL and TPF conspired to somehow screw you over is beyond me. I would think you would know after working with TOOL for months that they are anything but TPF puppets. TOOL and TPF don't agree on everything (see: white bloc). I can't believe you would irrationally lump TOOL in as puppets. I hope you don't really feel that way, after all the months of working with you on SNOW. And come on... Homogenous? TGE and WAPA fought for Karma, correct?

-Bama

[bigwoody]

I'm pretty sure he was referring to the fact that you learned that one lone guy reflected a whole alliance's opinion, especially when that lone guy isn't even in government. I'm afraid if you'll look in most alliance they'll all have those few outspoken individuals.

Very true, many do.

[bigwoody]

I like how you skipped over my post on the subject to select the one that had what you wanted to hear. I can't say that you've ever been a topic of discussion in our private channel that I've seen, so I don't know where the groupthink you're projecting would come from.

If you want to have an issue with us I guess that's your prerogative.

No, I saw it. Perhaps time will prove my initial assessment hasty. Just making an observation that venom on the scale he is passing out is rarely an unshared opinion.

[Zombie Glaucon]

I've learned over time that the guy speaking "just for himself" is usually an alliance's opinion with truth serum added. But thank you regardless for the status update on our relations with our allies, I had no idea.

I have empirical evidence to the contrary.

But you've never been one to even consider an opinion in opposition to yours, have you.

[Lord Boris]

I have empirical evidence to the contrary.

But you've never been one to even consider an opinion in opposition to yours, have you.

Oh yes he does. He considers my opinions on a daily basis, even when they are different or more violent than his.

[Random]

You are the one that said you had learned that the words of a rndom member reflect the alliance government with "truth serum" and you ask me who your teachers are?

I surely do not represent our government..unless I was added without my knowledge

(I couldn't help it.. )

[Tygaland]

We Are Perth Army and The German Empire were on the entire other side of the war and managed to remain in SNOW, so probably not even the majority were attacking your allies.

I think everyone understands where you're coming from Tyga, you seem to be making the biggest deal out of it. There's no abusing going on, I have a great amount of respect for you all.

You are kidding, aren't you? Look back over the thread and see people abusing the STA for cancelling a NAP and fostering white-on-white conflict.

Did TGE have SNOW signatories attack their MDP partners? Did WAPA?

[BamaBuc]

You are kidding, aren't you? Look back over the thread and see people abusing the STA for cancelling a NAP and fostering white-on-white conflict.

Did TGE have SNOW signatories attack their MDP partners? Did WAPA?

Tyga, he's just taking issue with your comment that SNOW is now homogenous. There are SNOW members not named STA on the Karma side.

-Bama

[Tygaland]

Really, Tyga? I agree with you on the people blasting STA. They're wrong. But, wow. The entire White Team is not out to get you, if you can believe it.

Didn't say it was. However, politically, we are in the very small minority on the white team.

You know as well as I do how slow things move on SNOW. As for the bloc, you really need to get the full story before you call conspiracy. Not only did TOOL, FEAR, DefCon and others turn down the bloc almost straight away (which about ended any possibility of it happening), it would not have replaced SNOW. TOOL made it clear that even if our other concerns were addressed, we would never sign if it supplanted SNOW. IIRC, any talk of a replacement econ forum associated with the bloc went away after that.

It is fairly well-known in white team circles that STA does not join blocs. We prefer to maintain control over who we ally with and swear to defend. So, the procession of "white unity" blocs that contained MDPs or higher were never somethign we'd be interested in but it was a fine means to try and paint the STA as against "white unity". As some have again accused us in this thread. Seeing as we had no knowledge of the bloc discussion at all until today (yes, it was never mentioned to us even after the talks fell apart) I'd have to say we were deliberately left out of the loop. White unity...heh.

Furthermore, I can assure you that SNOW never deliberately kept you or anyone out of the loop. Communication was bad across the board until Mia took over. Really, why you think TOOL and TPF conspired to somehow screw you over is beyond me.

I didn't say that either. But seeing as STA was not in your political clique we were often forgotten about when discussions on SNOW issues were taking place.

I would think you would know after working with TOOL for months that they are anything but TPF puppets. TOOL and TPF don't agree on everything (see: white bloc). I can't believe you would irrationally lump TOOL in as puppets. I hope you don't really feel that way, after all the months of working with you on SNOW. And come on... Homogenous? TGE and WAPA fought for Karma, correct?

-Bama

You are the only one mentioning puppets, Bama. It is clear there is a heavy political slant on the white team and that affected communication with those outside the clique. Perhaps instead of pretending it never happened, maybe you guys can work on fixing it.

[Tygaland]

Tyga, he's just taking issue with your comment that SNOW is now homogenous. There are SNOW members not named STA on the Karma side.

-Bama

No, he said no one was abusing STA for cancelling the SNOW treaty.

[BamaBuc]

No, he said no one was abusing STA for cancelling the SNOW treaty.

If he said that, then he's wrong. You guys don't deserve abuse for this move. I apologie if I missed part of his post.

-Bama

[Tygaland]

If he said that, then he's wrong. You guys don't deserve abuse for this move. I apologie if I missed part of his post.

-Bama

I think everyone understands where you're coming from Tyga, you seem to be making the biggest deal out of it. There's no abusing going on, I have a great amount of respect for you all.

*emphasis mine.

If people were not abusing us for leaving, I'd have nothing to make a "big deal" of.

[bigwoody]

I have empirical evidence to the contrary.

But you've never been one to even consider an opinion in opposition to yours, have you.

Yes, you are a notable exception.

[mhawk]

You are kidding, aren't you? Look back over the thread and see people abusing the STA for cancelling a NAP and fostering white-on-white conflict.

Did TGE have SNOW signatories attack their MDP partners? Did WAPA?

Tyga, I'm not sure if you're still trying to rub this at TPF, but you guys hit ml first. Perhaps I'm just taking that wrong but it seems like you guys keep making it that we were the first SNOW signatory to hit another signatory's MDP partner. I really don't know what all the rest of this thread is about, because as far as I'm concerned we both followed all our treaties and went our separate ways relatively cleanly.

[BamaBuc]

Didn't say it was. However, politically, we are in the very small minority on the white team.

It is fairly well-known in white team circles that STA does not join blocs. We prefer to maintain control over who we ally with and swear to defend. So, the procession of "white unity" blocs that contained MDPs or higher were never somethign we'd be interested in but it was a fine means to try and paint the STA as against "white unity". As some have again accused us in this thread. Seeing as we had no knowledge of the bloc discussion at all until today (yes, it was never mentioned to us even after the talks fell apart) I'd have to say we were deliberately left out of the loop. White unity...heh.

I didn't say that either. But seeing as STA was not in your political clique we were often forgotten about when discussions on SNOW issues were taking place.

You are the only one mentioning puppets, Bama. It is clear there is a heavy political slant on the white team and that affected communication with those outside the clique. Perhaps instead of pretending it never happened, maybe you guys can work on fixing it.

Yes, you guys have different friends than most of us. But that doesn't mean we're against you, as you insinuated throughout that post.

Anyone who says you're against white unity is wrong. Your work with SNOW is a testament to the fact that you care about white. And as has been said, a lot of alliances were not comfortable with you being left out, which contributed to several alliances turning it down.

Is TGE in our "clique"? How about WAPA? Point is, SNOW is not one huge clique and STA. I think we (TOOL) discussed things with you more than with TPF, since you guys were more active in helping out.

Again, White is not one huge clique. WAPA and TGE aren't exactly close to TPF, and TOOL doesn't agree with TPF on everything. It's not one big TPF clique and then STA in the corner.

-Bama

[BamaBuc]

*emphasis mine.

If people were not abusing us for leaving, I'd have nothing to make a "big deal" of.

Then I apologize. I should have done more than skim his post before commenting on it.

-Bama

[Tygaland]

Tyga, I'm not sure if you're still trying to rub this at TPF, but you guys hit ml first. Perhaps I'm just taking that wrong but it seems like you guys keep making it that we were the first SNOW signatory to hit another signatory's MDP partner.

That is not what I'm doing at all. We attacked ML because they attacked MK, our MDP partner. NSO attacked ML in support of us and you, in turn, declared on NSO via your MADP or whatever treaty it was. All fine by me, but the chain left us in the position that we could not then defend our ally because of the embedded NAP in the SNOW treaty. This is why we have cancelled the SNOW treaty. You could argue the NAP prevented you attacking the STA in defence of ML but I tend to think that the NpO's shadow looming behind us had more influence on that decision.

Anyway, my aim is not to blame TPF for precipitating this treaty cancellation. It has been something that was going to come at some point considering the political situation with regards to the STA and other SNOW signatories.

My only aim here is to counter the ridiculous accusations of some that the STA walked out on their NAP partners (as though the SNOW treaty was some overriding treaty based on true friendship when it is for all intents and purposes an economic bloc to centralise trade and tech dealing on th white team) and that we were looking to instigate white-on-white conflict. Something we have not done at all.

I really don't know what all the rest of this thread is about, because as far as I'm concerned we both followed all our treaties and went our separate ways relatively cleanly.

Yes, we did. Yet some on your side of the tracks seem to think the STA is doing something it clearly isn't and just when you think its all be sorted someone else comes in to stoke the flames.

[Ragashingo]

However if STA finds itself unable to avoid the conflict after trying its best not to, then a cancel is completely understandable. Although there may not be a white on white conflict at the moment, why else would you cancel an NAP if you weren't planning to?

We don't have NAPs with a lot of people. That doesn't mean we are planning to attack them.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Ragashingo

[bzelger]

We don't have a NAP with a lot of people. That doesn't mean we are planning to attack them.

Speak for yourself.

[mhawk]

That is not what I'm doing at all. We attacked ML because they attacked MK, our MDP partner. NSO attacked ML in support of us and you, in turn, declared on NSO via your MADP or whatever treaty it was. All fine by me, but the chain left us in the position that we could not then defend our ally because of the embedded NAP in the SNOW treaty. This is why we have cancelled the SNOW treaty. You could argue the NAP prevented you attacking the STA in defence of ML but I tend to think that the NpO's shadow looming behind us had more influence on that decision.

Anyway, my aim is not to blame TPF for precipitating this treaty cancellation. It has been something that was going to come at some point considering the political situation with regards to the STA and other SNOW signatories.

My only aim here is to counter the ridiculous accusations of some that the STA walked out on their NAP partners (as though the SNOW treaty was some overriding treaty based on true friendship when it is for all intents and purposes an economic bloc to centralise trade and tech dealing on th white team) and that we were looking to instigate white-on-white conflict. Something we have not done at all.

Yes, we did. Yet some on your side of the tracks seem to think the STA is doing something it clearly isn't and just when you think its all be sorted someone else comes in to stoke the flames.

There are like 10k nations on "my tracks" I've stated tpf's position, hopefully that calms it down some as this thread really as nothing to do with white mdp blocs, protectorates mad at protectors ect. I hope folks chill out for awhile, I don't see STA attacking us and we arn't attacking them.

[Tygaland]

There are like 10k nations on "my tracks" I've stated tpf's position, hopefully that calms it down some as this thread really as nothing to do with white mdp blocs, protectorates mad at protectors ect. I hope folks chill out for awhile, I don't see STA attacking us and we arn't attacking them.

Well, if that were true it'd have calmed down 18 hours ago.

[mhawk]

Well, if that were true it'd have calmed down 18 hours ago.

Wait, are you saying what I said is not true?

-edit nm thought you said "I" instead of "it"

I give up. night folks

Edited May 11, 2009 by mhawk

[Roadie]

For anybody else trying to follow this thread. I'll try to makes it simple for those outside white.

STA has family on brown

TPF has family on black

STAs brown family and TPFs black family went to war. SNOW - and it's NAP especially - had no choice but to be a casualty of that war.

Also I would like to add this. I'm not government, but from the closet that TPF locks me in at night I sometimes can hear voices outside the door. Those voices generally leave me the impression that TPF is impressed with STAs behavior in regards to both SNOW and the war.

[HeinousOne]

The last great war was unfortunate procession of events, we were protectorates at the time and I believe we weren't included as part of the treaty at the time. We are now a full signatory on our own accord and we would do everything in our power to avoid white on white conflict.

However if STA finds itself unable to avoid the conflict after trying its best not to, then a cancel is completely understandable. Although there may not be a white on white conflict at the moment, why else would you cancel an NAP if you weren't planning to?

Why would you cancel a NAP besides for the implicit reason of going right to war? Perhaps to end a war brought upon your allies in a nonaggressive manner? Oh wait, that is exactly what we did. Look at the dates, see when the NAP was over? See when the war between TPF and our allies ended? You think it wasn't connected?

I've learned over time that the guy speaking "just for himself" is usually an alliance's opinion with truth serum added. But thank you regardless for the status update on our relations with our allies, I had no idea.

Let give you a bit of truth serum. I do not like your alliance, that is my personal belief and I am no where near the top government of STA so that belief is mine and mine alone right now. Continue to act as you are here in trying to put that on STA and you just might find their beliefs slowly becoming more like my own. My issue with you came from my time with NPO. I didnt leave it with NPO. Don't like that? Tough.

Which allies of ours do you speak for in that regard?

Take it to PM if you wish, not looking to take this further off topic.

Oh, so you only wanted it to go as far off topic as your post? Perhaps you hadn't noticed but the days of you and your cronies saying whatever you want without much response are over and have been over. The respect your alliance used to have was also gone the moment you took yourself out of the great war in order to protect your infra as soon as you realized your long time allies did something the rest of the world really wasn't going to like. If you wish to continue to judge go ahead, I am truely enjoying this.

For anybody else trying to follow this thread. I'll try to makes it simple for those outside white.

STA has family on brown

TPF has family on black

STAs brown family and TPFs black family went to war. SNOW - and it's NAP especially - had no choice but to be a casualty of that war.

Also I would like to add this. I'm not government, but from the closet that TPF locks me in at night I sometimes can hear voices outside the door. Those voices generally leave me the impression that TPF is impressed with STAs behavior in regards to both SNOW and the war.

It has not gone unnoticed the length of which TPF members are willing to go to show this willingness to work on issues between our alliances. For what it's worth I appreciate it but all of that is for our leaders to decide.

[Roadie]

That comment was also intended for people trying to follow the thread who are not familiar with the situation, but may be curious as to the state of our alliances view toward each other.

Edit: It seems there's some people expecting hostilititties between and I thought they may be intereseted in such things.

Edited May 11, 2009 by Roadie