On Order

[Emperor Whimsical]

Fair enough, however the Cyberverse cannot be ruled by strength alone, so such a goal is impossible for one who seeks to use strength alone to conquer this world. Without a broad coalition, your opponents will create their own broad coalition to prevent you from ever doing so, thus the First, Second and Third Great Wars.

Thus my original argument, the NPO did not set out to rule this world, as the circumstances necessary for that rulership to happen occurred very much as a circumstance of the end of the Third Great War.

The NPO had the right emperor for the right circumstances at the right time, thus, my argument that events created the situation more than the alliance. Had a different Emperor or a different set of circumstances been present, any number of alliances would have assumed the hegemonic role other than the NPO.

Indeed, as events may amply demonstrate in the coming months, hegemony is circumstantial and somewhat inevitable.

It can, and it has. Coercion through might is a standard for diplomacy for many alliances. As for NPO having the right emperor, I've seen that many of the league alliances were incredulously incomptent, so I believe it would be less about NPO, and more about the failure that was the opposition.

[agnews]

should be interesting to see zdum reply

[Big Z]

I sense shens Moo )):

Would have been more fun to see Moo aiding Doitzel though.

[Orkules]

Really? I assume you are free to speak your mind within your alliance.

Are you free to coup your alliance leaders? If the answer is no, then you have limited yourself to two options: 1) That freedom is, indeed, conditional, or 2) That your alliance is a police state and therefore the NPO is secondary on your list of worries.

Of course not. And we make no bones about being totally free. We have limited freedom, which yes does mean we aren't actually free. Though to be fair, in Vanguard half of the alliance is openly plotting to coup the other half so it kind of breaks with what you said.

[Byron Orpheus]

Of course not. And we make no bones about being totally free. We have limited freedom, which yes does mean we aren't actually free. Though to be fair, in Vanguard half of the alliance is openly plotting to coup the other half so it kind of breaks with what you said.

Then if you recognize the limited freedom inherent in the social contract it seems that your cries of tyranny carry with them also the notes of hypocrisy.

[Orkules]

My cry is against you claiming we have freedom when we don't. Nothing more.

Not to mention tyranny and lack of absolute freedom are radically different things.

[Byron Orpheus]

My cry is against you claiming we have freedom when we don't. Nothing more.

Not to mention tyranny and lack of absolute freedom are radically different things.

My argument exactly. The idea that the Bobian community somehow suffers simply because it is not allowed to cry fire in NPO's theater is a ridiculous one.

I am claiming that you have precisely the amount of freedom that you can expect from any other alliance or group, that the Pax Pacifican atmosphere is no more filled with smog than the atmosphere of any other alliance or area of influence.

I'm glad that you have come to agree that there is no tyranny in the actions of Pacifica but rather a standard social contract agreed to by a majority of the population of our world that allows all to remain safe and prosper so long as the contract is honored.

[Orkules]

And now I must once again disagree with you. As I see it, Pacifica is a tyranny. My previous statement refered to your declaration that our claims of lacking absolute freedom were the same as claims of tyranny (which we do make but they're different, even if only just).

Pacifica seeks to control what we do, what we think, what we say and punishes those who dissent. Look at MK post UjW until the Coalition War. NPO did everything in their power to prevent them from ever getting a treaty partner. They threatened potential allies with isolation and potentially even future war to prevent them from signing with MK. I was a member and my brother helped run FA, I know the !@#$ that was pulled there.

Then there's the way Pacifica systematically tries isolate and crushes everyone who dares set themselves apart from them (especially if they are openly against their motives). Before you point out that it's not happening now, well that's because it's rather hard isolate this much of the world.

As to your claim that success leads to dominance is foolish. Mushroom Kingdom, TDSM8, any number of other alliances have been highly successful without ever coming to dominate or seeking to dominate. Success leads to dominance only if that is your intended goal.

[Byron Orpheus]

And now I must once again disagree with you. As I see it, Pacifica is a tyranny. My previous statement refered to your declaration that our claims of lacking absolute freedom were the same as claims of tyranny (which we do make but they're different, even if only just).

Pacifica seeks to control what we do, what we think, what we say and punishes those who dissent. Look at MK post UjW until the Coalition War. NPO did everything in their power to prevent them from ever getting a treaty partner. They threatened potential allies with isolation and potentially even future war to prevent them from signing with MK. I was a member and my brother helped run FA, I know the !@#$ that was pulled there.

What you have just written completely refutes your own argument. By your logic you should have the armies of Pacifica crushing you under their collective boots as we speak, yet you are allowed to express how "tyrannical" you think NPO is without fear of harm.

As far as MK goes I'm sure we can believe your side of the story, objective as it is since you yourself have admitted to being a member during that period of time.

Then there's the way Pacifica systematically tries isolate and crushes everyone who dares set themselves apart from them (especially if they are openly against their motives). Before you point out that it's not happening now, well that's because it's rather hard isolate this much of the world.

Those extreme enough to try to take on the beneficial peace of Pacifica isolate themselves and are ultimately crushed by their own irresponsibility.

As to your claim that success leads to dominance is foolish. Mushroom Kingdom, TDSM8, any number of other alliances have been highly successful without ever coming to dominate or seeking to dominate. Success leads to dominance only if that is your intended goal.

Because there is already a dominant order that they do not have the power to usurp. The choices, then, are to either align themselves with the foundational power in the world or oppose it. You can either be the dominator or the subordinate, but you must be one. Thus they are successful only insofar as they help to perpetuate the Pacifican peace by aligning themselves with it.

[Orkules]

I really should have followed the other people out of this thread shouldn't I? Kind of pointless arguing with somebody who's view of the way Pacifica acts borders on zealotry.

People have always been allowed to speak out. Unfortunately, we have a tendency to shortly find ourselves isolated. However, lately people have begun to move against this flow. The more people that resist the less it works, the less it works the more people resist it. It's a cascading situation that will only get worse until either Pacifica reinforces it's hold on the world (read through violence) or things blow apart on their own and the world sorts itself out on it's own.

Again, your explanation of success and dominance is rather idiotic. You claim that if your successful you will come to dominance and then that we can't come to dominate because NPO already does. By your original explanation of the relationship then we would achieve dominance over the Pacificans naturally because of our success. I mean Pacifica did it simply because they were successful (god forbid they admit they sought to dominate this game from the beginning) so why does this not happen to anyone else? Oh right, Pacifica are the foundation of the world or some insensible !@#$%^&*.

With that I think I'll likely leave this house of madness. Once again, thank you to Delta, Coursca, and co (even Bakunnin or whomever I don't feel like checking, yes I do accept that Pacificans can make good arguments) for an interesting read.

[King DrunkWino]

I usually don't add much to the extended political thesis, mainly because of my short attention span and...Oh look, a butterfly.

...

Ok, now that the prerequisite cheap gag is out of the way, all I have to say is that this world, any world in fact, is far to complex an entity to effectively be categorized in a black and white manner, or in the case of the flavor of this thread, dominate or subordinate. There are pockets of individual nations and even alliances that spend their days neither seeking to dominate nor are they subordinate to the larger world around them.

[Byron Orpheus]

I really should have followed the other people out of this thread shouldn't I? Kind of pointless arguing with somebody who's view of the way Pacifica acts borders on zealotry.

As pointless as arguing with those that allow their baseless demonizing of Pacifica to cloud their judgment.

Again, your explanation of success and dominance is rather idiotic. You claim that if your successful you will come to dominance and then that we can't come to dominate because NPO already does. By your original explanation of the relationship then we would achieve dominance over the Pacificans naturally because of our success. I mean Pacifica did it simply because they were successful (god forbid they admit they sought to dominate this game from the beginning) so why does this not happen to anyone else? Oh right, Pacifica are the foundation of the world or some insensible !@#$%^&*.

I don't see the idiocy in my argument. There is the dominator and the subordinant, and Pacifica is the dominator and therefore all of the subordinants must define themselves through Pacifica's domination. The only way to achieve domination over Pacifica is to take it, and the subordinants are either unable or unwilling to perform this task. Ultimately it comes down to a test of will and is a matter of risk v. return. Pacifica is the foundation of our world because it is in the dominant position and therefore all power (note that power in my worldview is a force rather than a possession) is invariably moved in relation to the center that is Pacifica.

[Byron Orpheus]

I usually don't add much to the extended political thesis, mainly because of my short attention span and...Oh look, a butterfly.

...

Ok, now that the prerequisite cheap gag is out of the way, all I have to say is that this world, any world in fact, is far to complex an entity to effectively be categorized in a black and white manner, or in the case of the flavor of this thread, dominate or subordinate. There are pockets of individual nations and even alliances that spend their days neither seeking to dominate nor are they subordinate to the larger world around them.

They are subordinant to the world around them by the nature of existence. The only way to not be subordinated or not rise to a position of dominance is by isolation.

If we consider this, then perhaps the supposed "isolation" of those who oppose Pacifica is in fact beneficial as it frees them from the dominant/subordinant relationship.

[King DrunkWino]

I think the point flew over your head, but that's ok. What I was trying to get at is that the world is far to diverse to classify along two or three classes. The black and white thinking is dangerous because it closes your mind to alternatives you would never see in a "us vs them," thought process. There are much more than Che Guevara's and Jackboots, even on Planet Bob.

[Byron Orpheus]

I think the point flew over your head, but that's ok. What I was trying to get at is that the world is far to diverse to classify along two or three classes. The black and white thinking is dangerous because it closes your mind to alternatives you would never see in a "us vs them," thought process. There are much more than Che Guevara's and Jackboots, even on Planet Bob.

If by that you mean that the "With Pacifica or against Pacifica" mentality of the extremists is foolish, then I agree.

[Ogaden]

If by that you mean that the "With Pacifica or against Pacifica" mentality of the extremists is foolish, then I agree.

The irony of this whole discussion is that NPO isn't even in the largest planetary bloc anymore, and hasn't been a true hegemonial power for months, if it ever was.

Feel free to continue the hate speech against us though, we know we're the cause of all suffering and strife everywhere in the Cyberverse.

[Delta1212]

The irony of this whole discussion is that NPO isn't even in the largest planetary bloc anymore, and hasn't been a true hegemonial power for months, if it ever was.

I honestly think you might inhabit an alternate reality. Quick, how many fingers are there on the average hand?

[Ogaden]

I honestly think you might inhabit an alternate reality. Quick, how many fingers are there on the average hand?

What's a hand? We type using the cilia that grow on our tentacles.

[Byron Orpheus]

I honestly think you might inhabit an alternate reality.

As opposed to the reality where having a discussion about the "evil NPO" unharmed proves that the NPO won't allow you to talk about them without being harmed?

I have to say I give you a 9.8 for mental gymnastics.

[Delta1212]

As opposed to the reality where having a discussion about the "evil NPO" unharmed proves that the NPO won't allow you to talk about them without being harmed?

I have to say I give you a 9.8 for mental gymnastics.

I've yet to call NPO evil or claim you can't talk about them. Keep the generic non-applicable arguments coming, though. You might eventually find one that's relevant to this thread.

[Bob Janova]

NPO isn't even in the largest planetary bloc anymore

What? Which is the largest bloc and why have I not heard of it until now?

[Byron Orpheus]

I've yet to call NPO evil or claim you can't talk about them. Keep the generic non-applicable arguments coming, though. You might eventually find one that's relevant to this thread.

I was referring to some other crazed realities since your own have been soundly beaten by a number of people by this point.

[Delta1212]

I was referring to some other crazed realities since your own have been soundly beaten by a number of people by this point.

No you weren't, or your mental gymnastics comment makes absolutely no sense.

[Ogaden]

What? Which is the largest bloc and why have I not heard of it until now?

Go do the math yourself. The information and treaty blocs and how they are all tied together is all publicly available information.

In fact you've even written software to model the treaty web, yet you ask me this question?

NPO has the most obvious gigantic treaty bloc, but it is not the strongest.

Edited April 14, 2009 by James Dahl

[Delta1212]

Go do the math yourself. The information and treaty blocs and how they are all tied together is all publicly available information.

Bob Janova is the guy that created the current version of the MDP Web...