Subtleknifewielder Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324511354' post='2883589'] I'm going to have to say this first: Where are all those people who had sent the concerns to HK? Why are we only having a few people saying the same things over and over again? [/quote] [quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1324511425' post='2883591'] It's hardly a few people. It's Mael and a few non-community members. [/quote] I'm going to step out bravely and say that I was in it...and Mael was NOT. In fact, it was STARTED by a person that is [i]decidedly[/i] in the community. Most of the people invited into it are still part of the community. I was only invited to offer an historical perspective. And some of them were among those at war now. I will not name specific names unless these people give me permission to do so, however. Or if they step forward themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted December 21, 2011 Report Share Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) It's not just me. People having the option to be creative, will encourage them to do just that. Right now they do not wish to be for concerns of being ridiculed or ignored and they just don't want to put up with it when the objective of this forum is entertainment. RE: Markus Forcing people out of canon is akin to shunning them. Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324511354' post='2883589'] I'm going to have to say this first: Where are all those people who had sent the concerns to HK? Why are we only having a few people saying the same things over and over again? I'm pretty sure Triyun had been hit by several major years. Are you mixing up Lynneth with Triyun? [/quote] Mael's refering to the official propaganda line given for me leaving the NPO. Its a lie, but I'll talk to you about it if you're really curious in a different thread as it has no place here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 [quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1324511845' post='2883597'] It's not limiting Mael's (or anyone's) creativity. He can RP chimeras all he wants, but those chimeras won't exist in canon. The forum can be used as a writing platform for more than just CNRP. [/quote] The problem is, it's often harder to write someone out if you don't have someone to interact with, in the end. See my point there? All other RP's other than CNRP itself get drowned out here. and if part of the community doesn't recognize another part, it sets a bad precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324511806' post='2883596'] What? [/quote] You heard me. We have openly admitted that people are forced to RP stuff they don't want so the community can get along (more or less). This is just another bone of contention that people are arguing over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of cochin Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 The system of GMs has many shortcomings but the potential for plugging these shortcomings are within it too and it is within the scope of the CNRP community to ensure these faults are plugged. It is not a viable solution to dissolve the GM system in its entirety and expect some much harangued mods to always divert their attention towards us, who we must admit is just a small dispensable part of the larger CN forum. Any human endeavor is subject to be biased, question is how much is a person aware of the biases he holds. The greater the awareness the greater the attempt by the person to suppress the bias. However when the matter is something that is closer to the heart, suppressing such a bias would definitely be a very hard thing t do. That is where the community should play its part. The system of GMs should ideally be that of moderators. Several people have suggested setting up a compendium of rules that everyone can check easily. Add that to a GM troika which would effectively interpret these rules so that it is more or less justice for the player petitioning and we have a good system. Also one must strip the GMs of the power to create rules and laws affecting CNRP by themselves. Any new rule or law, any major reinterpretation of rules or laws must be cleared by the CNRP player majority for it to be acceptable. GMs and any other player should of course be able to propose the said changes, but these should be cleared only by community approval. I would go as far as to say that even a mod ruling for rule change must be rung up for community approval. This is based on the assumption that the mods themselves hardly follow the storylines and events of CNRP as studiously as the community does and are subject to being swayed by a few creatively worded suggestions than the fact of the matter, which they may be too busy to check, after all when the core facts could be learned only after reading a couple of threads and a few dozen posts, wont it be better to just act upon one or two nicely worded PMs? In no way belittling the power of the mods, such a suggestion would impart greater responsibility upon the players of CNRP themselves. Of course there would be chaos. Some people would be arguing all the time for community polls for their pet peeves, but that is something that the community can decide as one by ignoring or promoting a cause. Every member should have the right to appeal the GM ruling in any case to the community poll. That way GMs seem less dictatorial and if the appeal is part of an abuse of laws, will give the community a chance to chastise the player for good using the mechanism of rules itself. Basically CNRP has several generic problems that cannot and should not be fixed with one massive and complicated solution, but what it needs is a systemic change enforced by a community that is aware of its errors and has the patience to let it run the course and stabilize itself. On a personal note it is some measure of sadness that a discussion that should have seen at least two dozen posts by me in the 6 pages it has run through till now warrants only enough attention from me to elicit this single post. This I fear is a result of my increasing detachment from the community and the CNRP as a whole. Being that as it is I no longer consider myself worthy of being a GM, a position which I respect tremendously and believe should always be wielded by persons who consider it honor bound and responsible to be truthful and judicial to a community they are very much a part of and considers to hold a stake in. Thus I formally ask the mods to consider my resignation from the post of GM effective immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1324511846' post='2883598'] I'm going to step out bravely and say that I was in it...and Mael was NOT. In fact, it was STARTED by a person that is [i]decidedly[/i] in the community. Most of the people invited into it are still part of the community. I was only invited to offer an historical perspective. And some of them were among those at war now. I will not name specific names unless these people give me permission to do so, however. Or if they step forward themselves. [/quote] Then get some of those people to start posting, damnit. Here we are, in a thread that was started because of people with concerns, and yet we don't see much except the usual people posting in threads like this. I mean, this is like petitioning the government about a problem, and then slipping back to let others deal with things. I find this to be..... well, not so good. Exactly what are the concerns? Exactly why the hell are we discussing all this? Exactly why are we having the topic derailed because one or two people want to RP chimeras or elves? Exactly where the hell are the people who made this thread happen? Exactly what are any of the possible solutions to the concerns suggested? [quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1324512256' post='2883608'] You heard me. We have openly admitted that people are forced to RP stuff they don't want so the community can get along (more or less). This is just another bone of contention that people are arguing over. [/quote] Give me an example. Edited December 22, 2011 by Kankou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324512335' post='2883611'] Then get some of those people to start posting, damnit. Here we are, in a thread that was started because of people with concerns, and yet we don't see much except the usual people posting in threads like this. I mean, this is like petitioning the government about a problem, and then slipping back to let others deal with things. I find this to be..... well, not so good. ---- Exactly what are the concerns? Exactly why the hell are we discussing all this? Exactly why are we having the topic derailed because one or two people want to RP chimeras or elves? Exactly where the hell are the people who made this thread happen? Exactly what are any of the possible solutions to the concerns suggested? ---- Give me an example. [/quote] They have been posting. They just haven't been brave enough to step forward. I don't blame them, but it is their call. They have been speaking up in this thread, they just haven't announced their previous participation. ---- Derailed? I consider it a valid part of it, though I will admit it is a little too focused on one aspect of the whole issue. ---- The biggest is unplanned wars. And yet, no one forces anyone to RP the effects of previous wars on their land. It's a double-standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 ABSOLUTE POW.... I mean sorry to see you leave the GMship Cochin. I've got some strong views on this war in particular, but I do think in the future there is room for you to work with others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1324512764' post='2883615'] The biggest is unplanned wars. And yet, no one forces anyone to RP the effects of previous wars on their land. It's a double-standard. [/quote] I personally wouldn't consider unplanned wars to be an example. I call that just whining. Of course, there is room for having the attacker be more civil and notify the other side and try to get at least a general outline done. Edited December 22, 2011 by Kankou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324512969' post='2883618'] I personally wouldn't consider unplanned wars to be an example. I call that just whining. Of course, there is room for having the attacker be more civil and notify the other side and try to get at least a general outline done. [/quote] How is it not an example of forced participation when they are wiped for not recognizing it? Although I do agree that at the very least, the attacker SHOULD try to work something out with who they attack. Edited December 22, 2011 by Subtleknifewielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Subtleknifewielder' timestamp='1324513070' post='2883620'] How is it not an example of forced participation when they are wiped for not recognizing it? [/quote] Almost all examples started because of some problem on the part of the attacked in the first place. The only wars I've seen that were purely forced were Triyun's initial reunification of China. All other wars were always based on some stupid action on part of the attacked. Edited December 22, 2011 by Kankou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Subtle, I don't think you've been here for a long time and are making false assumptions based on things you percieved years ago rather than what is actually happening. Because people have RPed the effects of war on their land quite a bit. For example, I had a very dystopian RP in Korea at the end of the war, and RPed the place as a barren wasteland. Zoot RPed the effects of a nuclear strike on London quite extensively. I'm trying to think of if there were other particularly damaging wars... As for pre-planned wars versus unplanned wars, I think it is pretty much agreed we'll try to get there to be more pre-planned wars, but people just can't take a huge swath of land and then declare themselves in virtual peace mode, then only post every 20 days. Thats just bad RP and its bad for the community. I'd also point out that we tried a pre-planned Great War and it fell apart when the 'Good Guys' didn't like they were losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknifewielder Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1324513210' post='2883625'] Almost all examples started because of some problem on the part of the attacked in the first place. The only wars I've seen that were purely forced were Triyun's initial reunification of China. All other wars were always based on some stupid action on part of the attacked. [/quote] Not so. I will freely admit that I participated in at least one past war simply because I did not like the person's nation. Not because of any specific action he took. And many of the other participants were the same. [quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324513239' post='2883627'] Subtle, I don't think you've been here for a long time and are making false assumptions based on things you percieved years ago rather than what is actually happening. Because people have RPed the effects of war on their land quite a bit. For example, I had a very dystopian RP in Korea at the end of the war, and RPed the place as a barren wasteland. Zoot RPed the effects of a nuclear strike on London quite extensively. I'm trying to think of if there were other particularly damaging wars... As for pre-planned wars versus unplanned wars, I think it is pretty much agreed we'll try to get there to be more pre-planned wars, but people just can't take a huge swath of land and then declare themselves in virtual peace mode, then only post every 20 days. Thats just bad RP and its bad for the community. I'd also point out that we tried a pre-planned Great War and it fell apart when the 'Good Guys' didn't like they were losing. [/quote] If they (and you) have RP'd these effects, more power to them (and you). However, I still don't see people being [i]forced[/i] to accept such consequences, when they are, in fact, supposed to accept an unplanned war. That's not what I heard...I heard it was ruined by one person, not by an entire group. Tell me I'm wrong, and I will take a different approach to my point. It's still the risk you take with every war, but planning it out minimizes the risk to a degree. Edited December 22, 2011 by Subtleknifewielder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324512015' post='2883602'] Mael's refering to the official propaganda line given for me leaving the NPO. Its a lie, but I'll talk to you about it if you're really curious in a different thread as it has no place here. [/quote] That's no propaganda line, that's my independent observation. Not a single ounce of brainwashing required to think that without being told to. Just have to look at your history of alliances and wars and notice that just as a war breaks out, you're somewhere else. Have you helped TOP any in engaging targets in this recent war? *looks at nation charts* Nope. Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1324513239' post='2883627'] Subtle, I don't think you've been here for a long time and are making false assumptions based on things you percieved years ago rather than what is actually happening. Because people have RPed the effects of war on their land quite a bit. For example, I had a very dystopian RP in Korea at the end of the war, and RPed the place as a barren wasteland. Zoot RPed the effects of a nuclear strike on London quite extensively. I'm trying to think of if there were other particularly damaging wars... As for pre-planned wars versus unplanned wars, I think it is pretty much agreed we'll try to get there to be more pre-planned wars, but people just can't take a huge swath of land and then declare themselves in virtual peace mode, then only post every 20 days. Thats just bad RP and its bad for the community. I'd also point out that we tried a pre-planned Great War and it fell apart when the 'Good Guys' didn't like they were losing. [/quote] You don't think Subtle has been here for a long time? I was questioning your ethics, now I question your mind. Subtle is an ancient vet of this community. He doesn't have to be here forever to have access to the content that is forever archived in these forums or to see patterns of behavior continuning over time. Yet again, Triyun has to attack his opponent and not the argument of his opponent. Great job, keep up with the ad hominem, you're really making your case well. Perhaps it falling apart was a good thing then, especially since you only seem to like "winning" in your rp. You are the powergamer embodied to the extreme. How do you deal with yourself? You seem to find it odd people don't like to be run over with no resistance by armies that cross deserts in mass without a drop of water in tow.. well.. surprise.. they don't. You don't give them an opportunity, it's a mostly illegal poorly rp'd curbstomp or peace mode. Wake up and realize your methods and abuses are a good chunk of the cause. Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voodoo Nova Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324513856' post='2883641'] That's no propaganda line, that's my independent observation. Not a single ounce of brainwashing required to think that without being told to. Just have to looka t your history of alliances and wars and notice that just as a war breaks out, you're somewhere else. [/quote] As an aside, Triyun's CN alliance history has no bearing here. It does not have anything to do with how to improve CNRP. We can stop that discussion now and focus on the topic of improving CNRP. Some ideas I have noticed are: Forcing budgets Changing military More preplanned wars Less GM intervention How do we, as a community of RPers, want to expand upon these ideas, so it doesn't increase the amount of rules/regs of CNRP and increase the burden of the GM system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) But it is part of the problem Voodoo Nova. People are going out of their way, even basing IG decisions, on preserving statics for the sake of the RP here. I feel that is contrary to the intent of this community. It's basically a way to selectively power-game for the sake of one part of the CN community. This community was not meant to cause people to avoid conflict IG for the sake of preserving their statistics. It's the ultimate form of meta-gaming. "I will become ungodly powerful in CNRP by avoiding conflict in CN in order to throw my weight around against other RPers who actually do something for their peers in CN." HK asked for ideas and concerns.. this is a very valid and in my opinion a very severe concern. It's also one that will be very difficult to address. Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voodoo Nova Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324514739' post='2883654'] But it is part of the problem Voodoo Nova. People are going out of their way, even basing IG decisions, on preserving statics for the sake of the RP here. I feel that is contrary to the intent of this community. It's basically a way to selectively power-game for the sake of one part of the CN community. This community was not meant to cause people to avoid conflict IG for the sake of preserving their statistics. It's the ultimate form of meta-gaming. [/quote] IG/CN has no bearing here. Period. If you want it to, be roleplay in cybernations, not CNRP. I don't care what people do to "preserve statistics" IG. It doesn't harm the story, it just means someone has better technology or a larger military. It doesn't even mean they can throw weight around. More numbers doesn't make a RPer any better at writing, diplomacy or even fighting. Edited December 22, 2011 by Voodoo Nova Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1324514952' post='2883658'] IG/CN has no bearing here. Period. If you want it to, be roleplay in cybernations, not CNRP. I don't care what people do to "preserve statistics" IG. It doesn't harm the story, it just means someone has better technology or a larger military. It doesn't affect their ability to write well. [/quote] It affects their ability to protect their story from those who would seek to destroy it.. aka.. the customary curb-stomp/rolling of nations we see consistently in the RP. The statistics are part of the story intrinsically. It may not prevent a person from writing, but it prevents them from having the freedom to guide the course of their works. Especially is someone is taking unfair advantages to bolster their personal numbers. You cannot write about a grand empire of 100 people. Also I like how you attempted to get people back on topics you want to address, this one is of equal importance and I will continue to address it in the hopes we will resolve it. Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324513856' post='2883641'] That's no propaganda line, that's my independent observation. Not a single ounce of brainwashing required to think that without being told to. Just have to look at your history of alliances and wars and notice that just as a war breaks out, you're somewhere else. Have you helped TOP any in engaging targets in this recent war? *looks at nation charts* Nope. [/quote] He's been having a bit of trouble considering anyone he could attack is in peacemode or already has all slots filled, nice try though carrying the partyline. Anyway get this to IRC and don't clutter the discussion with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1324515250' post='2883662'] He's been having a bit of trouble considering anyone he could attack is in peacemode or already has all slots filled, nice try though carrying the partyline. Anyway get this to IRC and don't clutter the discussion with it. [/quote] Do you have anything to comment about ways of representing the fact that some rpers war and some avoid war? Or was this just a waste of your breath? I have nothing to say on this other than to get this problem resolved so any irc discussion wouldn't be useful. Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324515469' post='2883666'] Do you have anything to comment about ways of representing the fact that some rpers war and some avoid war? Or was this just a waste of your breath? [/quote] It's a playing style in-game and has no bearing on CNRP, end of story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1324515533' post='2883669'] It's a playing style in-game and has no bearing on CNRP, end of story. [/quote] Thank you for making your [i]opinion[/i] clear on this. But when people go out of way to manipulate the statistics of the game, it has a bearing and something must be done to alleviate the problem. Otherwise the community remains in a technical imbalance. HK needs made aware of the concern. Edited December 22, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voodoo Nova Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1324515834' post='2883673'] Thank you for making your [i]opinion[/i] clear on this. But when people go out of way to manipulate the statistics of the game, it has a bearing and something must be done to alleviate the problem. Otherwise the community remains in a technical imbalance. HK needs made aware of the concern. [/quote] You made the concern known, yet you have not offered a viable solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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