Zoot Zoot Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1343207885' post='3014980'] Given the on-and-off discussion on lunar uranium starting from [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=42831&view=findpost&p=2938517"]this post[/url], the IRC discussions not posted on the forums which somewhat pointed to the ruling including uranium, and given that the current RP as it is would be connected to the current ruling GM (and thus a potential conflict of interest), I ask that the edits be deferred until further clarification from the previous GM team and also the opinions of the other two current GMs. I believe this would make this process will make things clear-cut for the future and will not affect the integrity of the general RP situation. After all, we can always retcon things if RP events overtake this discussion/ruling. [/quote] Thats no worries, Im sure Curri will be on at some point today, but Voodoo is without internet for a few more days I must warn you so you may be waiting for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/EPIxM.png[/IMG] Spy rolls to scan the North Atlantic for possible Umbrella Submarines using [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=111097&view=findpost&p=3001958"]special satellite modules[/url] after noticing Umbrella's unusual activities (practically public). The scan will not pinpoint the locations, but basically give the general idea of the locations leading to alerts that something is up and further precaution is necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1343258672' post='3015407'] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/EPIxM.png[/IMG] Spy rolls to scan the North Atlantic for possible Umbrella Submarines using [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=111097&view=findpost&p=3001958"]special satellite modules[/url] after noticing Umbrella's unusual activities (practically public). The scan will not pinpoint the locations, but basically give the general idea of the locations leading to alerts that something is up and further precaution is necessary. [/quote] I cant do this roll, but as I explained to you, those satellites wouldnt pick them up. They are too deep. Second, you wouldn't even know they were Umbrella Submarines, just submarines if one of them was found... which it wont be. No satellite can track the ocean floor, not beneath the thermal and accoustic layers. This isnt taking into account the fact that it has a quad, demagnetised hull, with a magnetohydrodynamic propulsion system, soundproofing around all noisemaking compartments. A RL Typhoon has a depth of around 1400 feet, or 400 meters. The typhoon II, with the extra hull, can get down to around 600 meters,(1968 feet), because of the materials its made with. Those satellites are designed to pick up the heat from submarine wakes, but the second law of thermodynamics means heat dissapaits. Nearly two thousand of freezing cold north atlantic waters fixes that problem. Second, it wouldnt detect any ways for the same reason, they are operating almost two thousand feet down. You would physically need a submarine close enough, and deep enough to use active sonar to find the subs, and even then you wouldnt know they were Umbrella. Oh and such systems are not in full production yet. Edited July 25, 2012 by Zoot Zoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1343259857' post='3015427'] I cant do this roll, but as I explained to you, those satellites wouldnt pick them up. They are too deep. Second, you wouldn't even know they were Umbrella Submarines, just submarines if one of them was found... which it wont be. No satellite can track the ocean floor, not beneath the thermal and accoustic layers. This isnt taking into account the fact that it has a quad, demagnetised hull, with a magnetohydrodynamic propulsion system, soundproofing around all noisemaking compartments. A RL Typhoon has a depth of around 1400 feet, or 400 meters. The typhoon II, with the extra hull, can get down to around 600 meters,(1968 feet), because of the materials its made with. Those satellites are designed to pick up the heat from submarine wakes, but the second law of thermodynamics means heat dissapaits. Nearly two thousand of freezing cold north atlantic waters fixes that problem. Second, it wouldnt detect any ways for the same reason, they are operating almost two thousand feet down. You would physically need a submarine close enough, and deep enough to use active sonar to find the subs, and even then you wouldnt know they were Umbrella.[/quote] You completely misunderstood the concept. The waves mentioned here are water waves generated by the movement of the submarines, something that cannot be prevented from happening. Something the size of an Akula moving around will be noticeable even if a submarine is 600 meters below the surface. The modules do not need to follow heat, magnetic anomalies, or sound to notice subs. The very water is the enemy of the sub with this particular device. The only thing correct about your assumptions above would be whether I would know they are Umbrella subs, but if they started from from South America it would be nearly obvious who they are. [quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1343259857' post='3015427']Oh and such systems are not in full production yet.[/quote] When has that stopped anyone? In conclusion, there is no reason for the rolls to be denied. PS: MHD? You realize that generates enough magnetic anomalies to be noticeable? It uses intense magnetic fields to move the submarine. Edited July 26, 2012 by Kankou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1343262342' post='3015451'] You completely misunderstood the concept. The waves mentioned here are water waves generated by the movement of the submarines, something that cannot be prevented from happening. Something the size of an Akula moving around will be noticeable even if a submarine is 600 meters below the surface. The modules do not need to follow heat, magnetic anomalies, or sound to notice subs. The very water is the enemy of the sub with this particular device. The only thing correct about your assumptions above would be whether I would know they are Umbrella subs, but if they started from from South America it would be nearly obvious who they are. When has that stopped anyone? In conclusion, there is no reason for the rolls to be denied. PS: MHD? You realize that generates enough magnetic anomalies to be noticeable? It uses intense magnetic fields to move the submarine. [/quote] I meant i cant do the rolls because they are against me, it would be un-befitting of a GM because it opens the risk of abuse. Not that I would abuse it, but I wont be the GM to set that precedent. I want you to explain, in full detail, including links to RL data that shows that these satellites can find/track submarines at extreme depths. Bear in mind, most submarines dont venture deeper than 400 meters. Your also assuming I kept all of my SSBNs in port, I didnt, they were all at sea already, to track them from SA would require you to roll to locate my submarine bases for a start. Secondly your trying to find ten submarines spaced hundreds of miles apart across the North Atlantic along the 30 degrees latitude, so roughly along the same latitude as the top of the florida panhandle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1343263639' post='3015471']I meant i cant do the rolls because they are against me, it would be un-befitting of a GM because it opens the risk of abuse. Not that I would abuse it, but I wont be the GM to set that precedent.[/quote] More of countering your statements on "why they wouldn't work". [quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1343263639' post='3015471']I want you to explain, in full detail, including links to RL data that shows that these satellites can find/track submarines at extreme depths. [/quote] Given that you should know how classified submarine-related data are, I'll just leave you with this (a blog which has a bit of commentaries on the original article I used): http://gentleseas.blogspot.ca/2012/02/satellite-and-x-37-detection-of.html Aside from the article above, there might be some people who wonder how I can differentiate something that is deep down 600 meters into the freezing Atlantic Ocean. Well, Zoot used a pretty bad choice of propulsion: MHD, which due to electrolysis occurring from the large magnetic fields being generated, splits water into oxygen and hydrogen and thus creates massive bubble waves that would make out of all things [b]cavitation[/b] seem quiet. We're talking the generation of a frothy wave that no large living creature swimming underwater would be able to generate, and that will come to the surface even if a submarine is 600 meters below water. [quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1343263639' post='3015471']Bear in mind, most submarines dont venture deeper than 400 meters. Your also assuming I kept all of my SSBNs in port, I didnt, they were all at sea already, to track them from SA would require you to roll to locate my submarine bases for a start.[/quote] Technicalities which I believe we can discuss separately. [quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1343263639' post='3015471']Secondly your trying to find ten submarines spaced hundreds of miles apart across the North Atlantic along the 30 degrees latitude, so roughly along the same latitude as the top of the florida panhandle.[/quote] We use spy rolls to find ships all the time. This isn't much of a counter. Edited July 26, 2012 by Kankou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Point one - those "satellites" are highly experimental, and i quote: [quote] "The natural disturbances of the sea surface due to wind and tides, it seems to me, are very likely to mask any disturbance due to a submarine passage, and so even if this were a viable detection technique, it seems to me so limited in application that it would not be worth the investment," said one former US Navy sonar expert.[/quote] Point 2 - They are only in use (if at all at a large level) apparently near the South China sea which ranges from 60 fathoms to 2000 fathoms deep. The article you linked offers no explanation into the process. MHD yes noisy yes, but the noise cant be detected below the thermal/accoustic layers. Your also trying to pick out one frothy set of bubbles from another in the middle of an ocean reknown for having bad weather, which makes froth and bubbles something of a common feature. Point 3 - Which technicalities, heres the link: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=107755&view=findpost&p=2924646 I also told a lie, apparently only half of my SSBN fleet is deployed at any one time, so in relation to "tracking them from south america", you need a roll to find the sub bases first, which begs the question as to why ICly were you watching my Empire, what ICly reason would you have to spy on my forces, given that you thrive on realism, it makes no sense for you to assume that the military buildup of nearly ten thousand ships, over half a million men and everything else, including the movement of every single one of my fleets, happened instantly. Btw, my fleets are based here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=107755&view=findpost&p=3010849 Point 4 - I need to see more circumstantial evidence in this satellite detection stuff that that blog Kankou, this last one is from a GM and personal standpoint. Whilst I cant wipe it for obvious reasons, I would like to see much more proof, and I want to see links for your RP in developing this technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Point 1: Yes they're highly experimental from a public point of view, but haven't we been allowing even more experimental projects without challenge unless they contradicted a clear reality? Point 2: It's not a problem of noise, it's the wake pattern generated by the submarines which survives even the turbulent waves on the surface given that they're formed under the surface. We're able to track underwater currents through satellites, and this technology is basically something upgraded and refined to the point it can detect the subtle waves generated by submarines. it's nothing spectacularly new, it;s the application of existing technology for an alternative purpose. Point 3: Technicalities as in discussing IC situations to hit the RP. point 4: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=107903&view=findpost&p=2913792"]Developed back in Grand Papua, and used against Germany when it was moving a fleet of submarines into the Indian Ocean[/url]. Please remember that the GM team at the time (Triyun/Centurius/TSS), which could be considered one of the more knowledgeable group of people when it comes to military technology, did not have an issue with the post after I showed it to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Result of discussion between Zoot and myself: 19:33 Kankou cancelling the roll, but the idea itself is valid? 19:33 Zoot aye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Question: How do we consider radioactive weapons? Like say, Grand Papua used a belt of cobalt to keep people from entering (something I had considered several time but never decided to use) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 They would come under the WMD rule of cruise missiles. You could have 50 max. However, a belt of radiactive material around a country would, in my opinion, be ridiculous and would, again, IMO, need the sanction of all three GM's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Not around the whole country (that would be absurd and potentially world-threatening) but as limited area denial weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Well as an area denial weapon you would be limited to the largest radius conventional radiation weapon. (I dont know what this is). You would only be able to use them on 50 areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) I propose that we get some kind of limit on that, since some believe that theoretically a single cobalt nuclear weapon can wipe out all life on Earth. Edited July 26, 2012 by Kankou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 That would come under a doomsday weapon and wouldnt be allowed by order of the Mods Kankou, the restriction is already existing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 Again, the point stands that we need to make some kind of correct limitations with radioactive weapons. Any idea you have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 I wont lie, I dont know much about dirty bombs and the like so Im all ears to suggestions from our more nuclear savvy members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Enema Posted July 27, 2012 Report Share Posted July 27, 2012 Zoot... ol' Kankou will get you going in circles about new rules. Just do it on a case by case basis like most folks have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted July 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 I'd like to call this post out for metagaming: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=107370&view=findpost&p=3016117 It is pretty obvious, especially combined with the previous metagame, that she posted it to get an advantage in the upcoming war she would not otherwise have had. As this is the second time and combined with the fact she is stalling in the pm, as Zoot Zoot and Voodoo Nova can confirm, I would like to request a waiver from preplanning for myself and Imperator Azenquor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Lithaen Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 (edited) Request denied. You really need to stop raining on my goddamned parade, Centurius. You're looking for a flat-up roll and want a blank check to do it with. Edited July 28, 2012 by Mara Lithaen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 1. You're not a GM, Mara. 2. Has there been any movement on part of Impy that indicates anything close to a military action against anyone? For that matter, anyone who has done any movement which might make your nation worried? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mara Lithaen Posted July 28, 2012 Report Share Posted July 28, 2012 Yours, actually... The Boisclair doctrine happens to kind of affect me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voodoo Nova Posted July 29, 2012 Report Share Posted July 29, 2012 [quote name='Mara Lithaen' timestamp='1343436314' post='3016249'] Request denied. You really need to stop raining on my goddamned parade, Centurius. You're looking for a flat-up roll and want a blank check to do it with. [/quote] You have a history of making moves IC after someone approaches you OOC regarding war. While your nation may do it normally, this post right here proves the pre-planning of the war was the most likely cause for the post you made. Even considering the fact your nation may suddenly want to stockpile for no reason (you didn't when I announced my doctrine), it won't be nearly large enough to make a substantial impact on any war effort when Cent and Impy invade. If you started it before they started pre-planning with you, I would disagree with Cent on this. For the waiver, I'll give you until 11:59pm EST on July 30th, 2012 to work with Cent & Impy on preplanning the war. Determining which GM's will mediate any OOC issues does not count as pre-planning. We are all capable of mediating this conflict just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kingswell Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Request two spy rolls to slip two teams of operatives into British territory by motor boat. Screen shot with odds below. [IMG]http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r619/Warlord_kevz/spyrolls.png[/IMG] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PresidentDavid Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Hopefully I've waited long enough. I'd like to request an auto-advance on Reichtenberg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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