The GM's Court

[Zoot Zoot]

No idea, thats why I'm asking in the GM's court.

[Centurius]

The term varies from GM to GM. That being said there has been no sign of activity since the last advance so I will grant the request.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Centurius

[Axolotlia]

So Gloval posted that he is sending the Athenian Federation copies of our classified materials when he previously posted that he returned all classified material. whats up with that?

[quote name='Gloval' timestamp='1354008851' post='3057399']
The four days have been set aside to allow any personnel from the AUP to leave our boarders, along with the transfer of any AUP-classified material or equipment back to their appropriate nations.
[/quote]

[quote name='Gloval' timestamp='1354772222' post='3060835']
"Ah good, you're finally here. You've been given the special files. Everything we got from the AUP, photographed, photocopied, the works.
[/quote]

I would also like to point out that should he have wanted to do this, it should have been mentioned prior to the four day deadline of his withdrawal from the AUP and return of all AUP materials. Given that it is not indicated until after, how does he still even have the ability to say he had it and was able to make copies?

[Gloval]

Example 1: [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=113101&st=20#entry3054441"]http://forums.cybern...20#entry3054441[/url]
My news thread. Classified post.
[quote][b]Propositum Lauandi:[/b] AUP equipment has been successfully un-implimented from Terre Regius military. [u]Examples of the STARS system have been preserved and isolated from AUP networks for possible future reverse engineering.[/u] A native situation-awareness/command and control system continues development.[/quote]
I underlined the key sentence. This happened back in early November.

This leads directly to the posts involving the transfer of materials to Athens, which can be found [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=113949&#entry3060835"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=113906&#entry3061217"]here[/url].

If one looks at the wording of my post in the AUP thread, found [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=108972&st=400#entry3057399"]here[/url], the phrase "along with the transfer of any AUP-classified material or equipment back to their appropriate nations" is spoken by Count Eustorgio Siciliano, who is fully capable of being a lying !@#$%^&.

I believe I've done appropriate set-up for this action, and enacted it well before that 4 day deadline.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Gloval

[Triyun]

I'd like to point out there is still this rather large standing issue of the legality of the infinite tech share that Africa's been doing.

[Executive Minister]

You are both being ignorant to what a STANAG is. No one can simply 'copy' the NATO STANAG for the 5.56mm round, for example... at least not in the capacity Gloval is making it out to be. Waffles, I recommend you don't feed the trolls.

[Gloval]

I used a photocopier on documents. That's all I did. Then those photocopies got sent to Athens.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Gloval

[Centurius]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1354928055' post='3061572']
I'd like to point out there is still this rather large standing issue of the legality of the infinite tech share that Africa's been doing.
[/quote]

This was ruled invalid as standing rules put restrictions on tech sharing which the infinite tech sharing does not abide by,

Edited December 8, 2012 by Centurius

[Executive Minister]

Right... only no infinite tech sharing has ever occurred since no one besides the top tiered AU members have their entire armies at the highest tier tech. Nice try ladies.

[Kankou]

So let me get this straight.....

1. It's been ruled that there be no "infinite tech share" (frankly I consider this a BS issue, but let's humor this for the moment).
2. Somehow a technologically backward, third-world nation managed to isolate parts of the STARS system without any other members noticing (BS because we have the tech problem).
3. Without any specific RPing, Gloval somehow has blueprints (which most likely was never shared, given how centralized the manufacturing process for the STARS system is) and managed to metagame by saying Count Eustorgio Siciliano lied when there has not been a single mention of this (which had been ruled in the past, related to Martens publicly saying one thing but specifically RPing another).


Basically, hasn't Gloval godmoded and metagamed everything?

[Gloval]

STARS isn't technology, it's a system of standards, like EnergySTAR compliant appliances. That is what I have been told.

All I did was photocopy documents. And I'm not "metagaming" by saying he lied. He literally lied. It's what the character did. Because my nation's actions are different than what a diplomat said.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Gloval

[Centurius]

The tech sharing rule put hard caps on how many could be transferred to other countries, not a complete ban on technology transfers. As Gloval outlined STARS is mostly a system, if his country was to adapt to it it is a fair assumption he had the designs. Such designs were photocopied through rp action, his actions are as such fully IC.

That said, the part relating to the blueprints and such is me speaking for myself and not as GM, whether his move is valid or not is up to Zoot or Melech to decide as I am biased on this matter.

[Executive Minister]

If Gloval thinks that by giving the Athenian Federation the information that all Aeon/AUSF hardware that is STARS compliant equates to somehow being able to reverse engineering anything or what have you, then that is absurd. What you will find out is that all our equipment is emp-proofed, has the ability to use a variety of mediums to communicate to a network (up to the tank or plane or whatever of a specific nation to implement details), etc. In the case of vehicles, they must be modular, have active or passive defenses or both, etc.

At best, you'll be able to know what kind of ammo you'd come across should you defeat an African unit and seize their equipment, whether or not you develops weapons that can accept our calibers is up to the people involved. We'll also be able to put any 'reverse-engineered vehicles' inside our transports, making it easier for us to capture them ourselves, or vice versa.

I don't mind this kind of action, and do not oppose it. That being said, we must be clear on what Gloval is actually giving out.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Executive Minister

[Zoot Zoot]

It would be safe to assume that as Gloval was in the AUP, he would have access to the systems that were freely shared within the AUP, this includes operational and technical knowledge of them. Engineers and whatnot would have to know how they work to maintain them. I see no issue here about photocopying such documents if we assume common sense rules supreme here on the shared technology within the AUP.

EM just stop, you talk of feeding the trolls, well sorry sister, but your just as bad. Sumer, please don't antagonise the situation.

If that is all gloval/cent learn from these photocopies, then that is all they bloody learn, whats the !@#$@#$ problem here?

Out of the damn GM's court, this does not need arbitration guys, come on.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Zoot Zoot

[Kankou]

I think first of all, someone should explain what STARS.

Second, and most importantly, I see no indication that there had been prior or concurrent actions of the state along with the worlds of the Count. It had been ruled about an year ago that the minimum requirement for lying to be not considered a metagaming is to have the lying be explicit (OOC-wise) at the time of the posting, and not some "oh, I lied back then" face-change. This was done to uphold basic RPing standards. Basically, unless Gloval shows that he did something at the same time or before, he would be metagaming by saying the Count lied after the fact.

[Zoot Zoot]

Unless Gloval made this "lying" post before this entire thread erupted into a moot issue, then it is not metagaming. If he did it AFTER the concerns were raised with the GM's about his actions, then sure, it would be. But as far as I understand it, this lie was told before it was made the GM's problem.

Now if Gloval did not state in the post it was a lie, then its a good lie. Because if he did, then the other side would of definately metagamed and just done something silly to prevent what he was going to do. Everyone does it. To lie in CNRP means to actually lie and not write down in your post that your lying, otherwise it defeats the point of it due to OOC motivations behind ICly moves being impossible to prevent in the community because its how the community dynamic works.

[Axolotlia]

So if you don't acknowledge you are lying in a text based RP, then its just considered a good lie, and if it doesn't go your way you can just take it back? That's BS. He never acknowledged he was lying, and we cannot assume as such in these manners which dictate a nations actions.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Axolotlia' timestamp='1354944099' post='3061643']
So if you don't acknowledge you are lying in a text based RP, then its just considered a good lie, and if it doesn't go your way you can just take it back? That's BS. He never acknowledged he was lying, and we cannot assume as such in these manners which dictate a nations actions.
[/quote]

Characters make statements all the time. It doesn't mean the nation follows what the person says, because the action still needs to follow the statement.

[Axolotlia]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1354945300' post='3061656']
Characters make statements all the time. It doesn't mean the nation follows what the person says, because the action still needs to follow the statement.
[/quote]
So you are saying that you don't need to indicate you are acting contrary to a statement. That doesn't make sense when it is a statement which is implementing policy. Given that he copied the information prior to stating his intentions to return all classified materials and leaving the bloc, those pieces of copied information would be expected to be returned as they are also classified pieces of intelligence. No where was it explicitly stated (OoC or IC) that he acted otherwise until he himself just mentioned that he had them and was going to distribute the information. If you aren't required to at least indicate anywhere that there is a contrary action occurring, that invites meta-gaming. Additionally, if players meta-game because they know the other is lying, they should be called out, but there should be some indication that a character is lying given that this is text-based, which decides a course of actions for their nation, not just the actions of others.

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

I'm leaning towards Axolotila's reasoning here. You can't come along and say that someone was lying just because it was in quotes when it's convenient for you. If you lie to someone, you really need to do a secret IC tag so we know what really happened. Since it's secret IC, you don't need to worry about people using that because they don't have the ability to know what really happened unless they go and send inspectors to make sure that nothing remains.

This is for everyone's reference in the future. If you are lying, you really need to either SIC or provide a link to your actions where you went back on your word in a previous post.

Edited December 8, 2012 by KaiserMelech Mikhail

[Gloval]

Well, the only reason I didn't make a post within that 4 day period was because I thought that the post I made back in November, in my news thread, was adequate. If it wasn't, I keep that in mind in the future.

So, really, I'm just wondering about the ruling here. Zoot gave me the impression that I had the intelligence. I'm not going to argue on my behalf on this issue any further, I figure that we're just going to start repeating ourselves soon. I've presented my evidence and my side of the story, and I'll follow whatever the GM's agree on.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Gloval

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='KaiserMelech Mikhail' timestamp='1354952525' post='3061698']
I'm leaning towards Axolotila's reasoning here. You can't come along and say that someone was lying just because it was in quotes when it's convenient for you. If you lie to someone, you really need to do a secret IC tag so we know what really happened. Since it's secret IC, you don't need to worry about people using that because they don't have the ability to know what really happened unless they go and send inspectors to make sure that nothing remains.

This is for everyone's reference in the future. If you are lying, you really need to either SIC or provide a link to your actions where you went back on your word in a previous post.
[/quote]

Considering how cute some people are trying to be with this whole issue I think you are onto something here. There seems to be way too much OOC maneuvering here with Gloval signing treaties that are ohh so convenient and then he is "claiming" to have lied. This entire episode demonstrates what a two faced little fink Gloval is acting like and how he's being maneuvered OOCly and probably doesn't even realize it.

[Centurius]

Gloval posted a full week before leaving the AUP his secret photocopying of AUP documents, negotiations on one of those convenient treaties started even earlier. If anything it's being played fully IC by him while others are playing the OOC on it. There is precedent for statements in RPs being lies and only narrative can be considered binding.

[Triyun]

Studying proliferation issues, I have to say its pretty damn hard if you actually give people access to a full system to then keep them from copying stuff. Its why Russia and the US both typically don't do that with other nations (we even have had sharing issues with Britain). Its also why quite a few of us do not give full access. Now reverse engineering in and of itself is a big technical challenge. But thats RP that can be done later. Really there is little way that the AUP can verify that Gloval has returned everything.

[Kankou]

What KaiserMelech Mikhail said about lying was the exact same ruling we had about an year ago about Kaiser Martens invading Austria or something like that. The fact he needed to state it again seems to indicate something is amiss with people trying to pull metagaming.


PS: This isn't about Gloval, since I have specifically qualified his actions as supposing he did nothing before or during the statement that he now calls a lie.