The GM's Court

[AironthFlamewing]

They will have their naval and air cover to ensure their landing... dont you worry sweetcheeks.

[Isaac MatthewII]

how many ships do you have doing this again?Also type and link to the RP please.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Isaac MatthewII

[AironthFlamewing]

I have my entire 54 ship navy with enough transports to carry the men(also being carried by air) You can see it for yourself in the War thread.

[Isaac MatthewII]

No, I mean the RP for this huge armada of transport ships you have. Also type.

[AironthFlamewing]

Task Force 38 in my post...

[Zoot Zoot]

Just my two cents and dear god, but MO is right.

His 54 warships are his warships including landing ships. However, landing ships are not exclusively landing ships, Eg my landing ships are an extra nine light carriers for my marines.

Transports are troop ships, they are unarmed generally and have NEVER counted as a restricted variable like actual warships.

500k is excessive yea, but it's always been done like that.

[AironthFlamewing]

Zoot- Should I screencap you saying I am right and frame it? It will never happen again

[MostGloriousLeader]

The only problem with the movement of such a large amount of troops is that granite's going to need good port facilities to get those troops and supplies offloaded in a timely manner, they can't just teleport from the ships to shore. He could use his amphibs to try shuttle his whole force onto the beach but that's going to take a long time, especially since the generic transports aren't designed to accommodate helicopters or smaller amphibious craft for that purpose.

Edited June 6, 2012 by MostGloriousLeader

[AironthFlamewing]

Part 1. argument to that is that it was that way previously in CNRP(the teleport landings bit) point 2. would be that they would drive up on the beaches (a la Normandie) I havent figured it out yet

[MostGloriousLeader]

Remember that at Normandy the allies prefabricated two artificial harbors to sustain allied forces until they captured a port city (which was a high priority). Honestly, the whole instant invasion is something that's idiotic in my opinion. An amphibious invasion is among the most difficult, and risky military actions that exist. To dumb it down to instant transportation is insulting in my mind. I don't expect someone to offload every single bullet, tank and soldier. I do expect at least an initial explanation on how and where the supplies and equipment are coming ashore in adequate amounts. Beyond that the link is established and I could care less about further rp on that unless your opponent purposely begins attacking your supply lines. That's just my opinion though.

[Executive Minister]

Hold on MO. I didnt say I condone massive teleport movements. 500 000 troops will most definitely not be moving in a single post. Youll notice in my panzerracketenwaffenschrek example I said 'have begun' to deploy. Not 'have deployed' and are currently fighting. You can say at the end of the day 500000 will be the total deployed, but you cant move them all in a single post.

[Isaac MatthewII]

Two more rolls, one to play a signal on all military video and audio frequencies in West Virginia interrupting their communications with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 on a loop.

[IMG]http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af349/Isaac-Johnson/Spyrollswv1.png[/IMG]

another to have a spy in Nutmeg to see his massive naval movements.

[IMG]http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af349/Isaac-Johnson/spyrollsaustralia-1.png[/IMG]
Thats 50%

[VigilantWatcher]

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1338972708' post='2978170']
Two more rolls, one to play a signal on all military video and audio frequencies in West Virginia interrupting their communications with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0 on a loop.

[IMG]http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af349/Isaac-Johnson/Spyrollswv1.png[/IMG]

another to have a spy in Nutmeg to see his massive naval movements.

[IMG]http://i1022.photobucket.com/albums/af349/Isaac-Johnson/spyrollsaustralia-1.png[/IMG]
Thats 50%
[/quote]


1-50 Success
50-100 Fail


Set #1:
84


Set #2:
81


One Win, One Loss, guv'nor. Please provide roleplay on how the operations turned out based on these rolls, please and thanks, and have a nice day!

Edited June 6, 2012 by Curristan

[AironthFlamewing]

[quote name='MostGloriousLeader' timestamp='1338958954' post='2978130']
Remember that at Normandy the allies prefabricated two artificial harbors to sustain allied forces until they captured a port city (which was a high priority). Honestly, the whole instant invasion is something that's idiotic in my opinion. An amphibious invasion is among the most difficult, and risky military actions that exist. To dumb it down to instant transportation is insulting in my mind. I don't expect someone to offload every single bullet, tank and soldier. I do expect at least an initial explanation on how and where the supplies and equipment are coming ashore in adequate amounts. Beyond that the link is established and I could care less about further rp on that unless your opponent purposely begins attacking your supply lines. That's just my opinion though.
[/quote]

But my point is that (and yes I know and remember Mulberry I and II extensively) others have in the past insta-moved troops I understand your reluctance and respect it- Hell, I am not invading you with troops- It's Isaac I am hitting- I have as I said before starting steaming towards Isaac, I have not as of yet arrived yet and I assume so far (have not thought it out yet) I would rush my troops out of the transports and beach others(with the tanks and stuff pouring out)

[TheShammySocialist]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1338960268' post='2978138']
Hold on MO. I didnt say I condone massive teleport movements. 500 000 troops will most definitely not be moving in a single post. Youll notice in my panzerracketenwaffenschrek example I said 'have begun' to deploy. Not 'have deployed' and are currently fighting. You can say at the end of the day 500000 will be the total deployed, but you cant move them all in a single post.
[/quote]

I support this sentiment, five hundred thousand troops moving along land borders of neighboring nations is one thing, moving them by air or sea in one post. Yeah, that should not be happening, the fact of the matter is this; we have warships and then we are allowed to have a "reasonable" number of auxiliary ships, like unarmed transports, fleet oilers, mine countermeasure vessels, replenishment vessels, and the like.

Having enough ships to move five hundred thousand soldiers, at once, would certainly push that "reasonable" number of auxiliary ships to an extent that pushes beyond that "reasonable" threshold.

[AironthFlamewing]

Remember guys- I have 500,000 out to sea this does not mean they are landing right now- just that they are seaborne/airborne. They will land in waves... would that appease you?

[TheShammySocialist]

[quote name='graniteknight' timestamp='1339023285' post='2978436']
Remember guys- I have 500,000 out to sea this does not mean they are landing right now- just that they are seaborne/airborne. They will land in waves... would that appease you?
[/quote]

Read my post, I mean, [i]actually[/i] read what I said.

---
[quote name='graniteknight' timestamp='1338953113' post='2978065']
Some nit-picking at Isaac if you would not mind EM- and I object to Shammy ruling on this because he has a dislike of me regarding Australia amongst other issues So I want your opinion EM.[/quote]

On a totally unrelated note, I can say that I personally take offense to when someone makes an assumption that I cannot rule on something because they think I have some apparent slight against them, like in the quote above. This was an issue that came up during my last tenure as GM, where people came to me because they didn't think Triyun or Centurius could not rule for them fairly.

We had elections, whatever the outcome may be, some people may not like the results, some might, the fact of the matter remains is the majority of the population of CNRP gave the three individuals a mandate to oversee rulings. There should be now assumed differences unless one of us is directly involved in a conflict, that is where the line is drawn. Past altercations, whether they be OOC or IC, provide no basis of why people should be able to pick and choose GMs because they [i]think[/i] they have a bad rep with them.

In the case of graniteknight's accusations against me, in this particular case, do you real think the community would elect a GM if they didn't think (s)he was mature enough to get over some slight tussle, that happened more than two months ago? Seriously, think before you post things like that here, it does this Court no good.

Edited June 6, 2012 by TheShammySocialist

[AironthFlamewing]

Shammy for the record- D-Day (considering today its relevant to my point) 3,000,000 men in a total of 4,126 landing craft(of all types) thats 727 men per landing craft... I only am using 500,000 men so let's cut the numbers by 6 because if it was only an invasion of 500,000 it would need only 1/6th the number of landing craft am I right or am I wrong in my assumption. that's 688 landing craft(plus or minus plane landings too which I didnt figure here, this is just seaborne) would be 628 men per landing craft! it's logical that I could do this dude.

[Markus Wilding]

Yes, but the beaches of Normany were....well, "ideal" for a landing zone, as far as amphibious assaults go. And don't forget this operation took years to plan, you're deploying in mere weeks in RP time. AFAIK, the Carolinas aren't suited to amphibious assaults but I wouldn't know that. This is still a very risky operation that will most likely result in huge casualties.

[Kevin Kingswell]

[quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1339038196' post='2978572']
Yes, but the beaches of Normany were....well, "ideal" for a landing zone, as far as amphibious assaults go. And don't forget this operation took years to plan, you're deploying in mere weeks in RP time. AFAIK, the Carolinas aren't suited to amphibious assaults but I wouldn't know that. This is still a very risky operation that will most likely result in huge casualties.
[/quote]

Also to add on to Markus' point those troops for D-Day spent a long time practicing and training for these invasions. Your soldiers have not spent the time training for this invasion, sure they might have basic army training but I believe that army forces are not trained for large scale amphibious assaults. In fact I doubt any navy has trained for that many troops landing by sea. The logistics and control alone will be a nightmare.

[JEDCJT]

[quote name='graniteknight' timestamp='1339037885' post='2978570']
Shammy for the record- D-Day (considering today its relevant to my point) 3,000,000 men in a total of 4,126 landing craft(of all types) thats 727 men per landing craft... I only am using 500,000 men so let's cut the numbers by 6 because if it was only an invasion of 500,000 it would need only 1/6th the number of landing craft am I right or am I wrong in my assumption. that's 688 landing craft(plus or minus plane landings too which I didnt figure here, this is just seaborne) would be 628 men per landing craft! it's logical that I could do this dude.
[/quote]

On D-Day, over 156,000 troops were landed on the beaches of Normandy in over 4,100 landing craft. That translates to approximately 38 per LC, which basically means that you would need over 13,000 LCs to transport over 500,000 troops if you're using the kind of LCs that were used in WWII. Modern LCs such as LCM-8s are capable of carrying 6 to 8 personnel each (if I read it correctly), which means you would need more than 62,000 LCM-8s if you want to transport such a force entirely on water (just sayin' )

[Coloradia]

[quote name='JEDCJT' timestamp='1339039143' post='2978579']
On D-Day, over 156,000 troops were landed on the beaches of Normandy in over 4,100 landing craft. That translates to approximately 38 per LC, which basically means that you would need over 13,000 LCs to transport over 500,000 troops if you're using the kind of LCs that were used in WWII. Modern LCs such as LCM-8s are capable of carrying 6 to 8 personnel each (if I read it correctly), which means you would need more than 62,000 LCM-8s if you want to transport such a force entirely on water (just sayin' )
[/quote]
To be fair the LC's only need to transport to the shore. They can usually be loaded from ships. So he wouldn't need 62,000 LCs. However he would need to be able to have enough ships to have 500,000 men sitting offshore being ferried by thousands of LC's. I'm not sure how you handle transport fleets in CNRP as I just browse on occasion. But yeah. You don't need enough landing craft to fit all 500,000 Unless all 500,00 are landing in one wave... in which case you would need one HUGE landing zone.

Edit: Wiki gives LCM-8 capacity as one M-48, one M60, or 200 troops. Don't know if you take wiki as reliable or not but [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Mechanized#LCM_.288.29]Source[/url].

Edited June 7, 2012 by The Great One

[MostGloriousLeader]

Granite said that he'd be landing in waves so I don't feel that's really the issue, especially seeing as he doesn't have to worry about an Normandy style static defense system. The largest troop ships that I've ever seen are some WWII era converted cruise liners with the ability to carry about 10,000 troops apiece. The problem is that those troop ships had no amphibious capabilities of their own, being used for ferrying troops across the Atlantic plus I don't know too many nations with an excess of 50 large ocean liners ready to be converted. Not too many modern ships are capable of supporting landing craft other than purpose made amphibious assault ships and those usually have a capacity of less than 2000 troops. Granted you could use Normandy style amphibious ships which would be capable of transporting troops to shore with landing craft (I'm assuming with a modernized vessel and LC) but even those were still under 2000 troops for the largest. Now one could use LST style ships to directly beach onto shore and offload troops and equipment but they had an even smaller capacity. Most modern cargo ships are designed to be offloaded quickly (Roll on/Roll off) in port but lack the means to conduct offloading out from sea.

During the Normandy invasion they landed over 100,000 troops in one day using 4000 landing ships. The problem is that includes the smaller landing craft as well. I don't think anyone's going to want to be in a LCU or LCAC traveling all the way from New England through the open sea to the Carolinas. D-Day took place cross channel which meant that all of their troops and supplies had to move a considerably shorter distance as well which made the process quicker.

I'm not arguing that granite can't mount an invasion because he certainly has the ability to. The main issues are that his troops (I'm going off the 500,000 figure including support stuff as well) are probably going to take longer than a week to fully get all of his troops ashore. There is also going to be the issue of his transports having to go back and forth between home and NC for more troops because I don't think there's ever been an amphibious force of 500,000 troops at sea before. This lengthens the process of invasion and makes subsequent reinforcements vulnerable as his navy needs to be able to cover both the beach head and the incoming ships with troops and supplies.

On the other hand granite can take the appropriate actions to speed up the process. He won't have to worry about landing craft having to shuttle troops to the beach. Instead he can move his transport ships directly into harbor to offload quickly, go home and come back again. If he can use his initial assault force to secure a good port the process can be done quicker. He probably doesn't have to contend with an Atlantic wall style defense but he will have to worry about Isaac's troops being mobilized to push him back into the sea along with air attacks against both his troops and his ships.

Sorry for the giant wall of text and I must say that this is just my opinion on the matter and that I am not attacking granite personally in anyway and I apologize if it seems that way. This is something I feel should be considered for all the massive teleport invasions that have occurred. I don't want to seem like the !@#$% who overly complicates things but this process doesn't have to be too complicated. You can have a reasonable amount of transports for your force but understand it will take time to make this stuff happen. Again, I don't think you should be expected to rp out how every little crate of supplies and every soldier gets ashore but at least provide a reasonable rp on how it generally falls together. I know the tech and organization of your military is probably the more fun and entertaining part but you can't just throw out logistics with lol transporting (which is quite possibly more important than the others).

[Kankou]

The only thing I would like to ask: Has anyone RPed building tens of thousands of landing crafts? We aren't supposed to assume we have that many in one time, are we?

[Triyun]

Cochin and then I both RPed a construction of a significant number, not 10, 000 though.