Hayzell

Good luck TSO! Glad to have you at our side.

A courageous and and respectable move, NSO. May the force be with you.

Same war, new front. It seems obvious to me that upon hearing of our intention to pre-emptively strike CnG, pressure was put on \m/ to peace out, as the juicy target would be coming right in. What no one seems to be considering is why \m/ would suddenly have decided to take the peace offer, after all their propaganda of fighting for their freedom, how Grub can't be a moralist, etc, after only 4 days of war. When you view this from a strategic point of view it is clear this gamble was made because if IRON were to counter Fark and the others attacking NSO, MHA (and Gre and Sparta) would have countered, as they were all ready to do. In this case, it would have put TOP in an awkward position (we're treatied to MHA) and whatever counter we would have launched would have been countered by a CnG assault. That's just my take on it, can't say I have any upper level info, but I don't see what's so crazy about this. In any event, in a few hours we should know if this will just end now, or not end well at all.

Expected.

Is this truly what it looks like? If so, I've been waiting for this day.

Airme, you're a hypocrite. You called the last war the Blue Balls war cause you, CnG and co got boners waiting up everynight in hopes that you'd be able to get a shot at IRON and TOP. So now we're coming straight to CnG's doorstep. Your moral outrage here is laughable. Don't beg for a fight for months then cry bloody murder when you get punched square in the chin.

Any victory against TOP would be a pyyrphic one at best. Preemptive strikes have been done in the past, we do this to win. You have wanted to fight us for so long, now leave the propaganda at the door and let's dance, fine gentlemen.

Let’s do this.

That is an honorable thing to do, Ivan. Good luck.

It is commendable to stand up for what one believes in. To that end, good luck Polar.

Please provide me an example of a system in which there is no decision making body that declares war. Even without voting, whoever holds the authority to declare war in an alliance must make the decision to go to war, and by definition of making a decision there is the option between two choices. If this was not the case then a treaty partner could post their allies DoW for them, since there would apparently be no need for the treatied alliance to make the decision on its own.

But you fail to address the next sentence. By your logic, every single alliance which has a formal means for declaring war (i.e. All of them?) holds only ODPs. You fail to address the reason why all alliances have such systems in the first place; that is, to analyze specific situations and determine the appropriate course of action. TOP isn't any different in this regard than any other alliance.

That's absurd. Every alliance has mechanics in place for how it enters a war. Simply following such procedures does not mean an alliance's treaties are optional. Figuring out whether or not an alliance is in a defensive or aggressive position, and the validity of the CB being used have to be determined by some entity. If a direct MDP ally is attacked in a defensive position I can assure you 100% of the time there would be a unanimous vote to defend that ally. You seem to imply that because it is feasible that the vote might fail that makes the treaty essentially optional. But that makes no sense given any alliance feasibly has the capacity to just not declare in support of their ally. But that doesn't mean they will do so.

I did not say it was the sole motivator, but to say it played no role is just disingenuous on the face of it. Why would you care who we were allied to if you had intentions to cancel on us regardless? It is obvious that IRON was a significant factor in the cancellation. The broader picture is FOK's desire to have a unified FA, sure, but it has become very clear this includes not being tied to IRON at all.

It actually does make sense to me the way you've explained it. The OP conveys a different message though, and both you and the OP seem to assume \m/'s typical conduct is acceptable. Also, the line that \m/ crossed cannot be uncrossed, and the consequence of this action is up to Polar.

In this instance it is a fact that at least part of the reason FOK cancelled was because TOP did not capitulate to the request that we cancel our treaty with IRON. Presumably, RnR will cancel its treaty with IRON, in order to establish this more unified FA path FOK is aiming for. I see nothing ridiculous about that conclusion; if one assumes FOK and RnR are inseparable and that FOK will be consistent, then it certainly does make sense.

\m/ has pretty clearly admitted to the IC nature of this situation by posting this in an IC forum. It has always been the case that IRC conversations can be IC whenever the context pertained to Digiterra (i.e. many CB's have included IRC logs). I think the point that Grub wasn't just idling in #\m/, but came on a specific diplomatic mission, is an important one, as it establishes the foundation of the situation being IC, not OOC. I just do not see how you can argue that insulting a foreign alliance leader on a diplomatic mission in one of the most common mediums can be construed as OOC. This also is not even much of an apology, as it contradicts itself by saying "it is not the \m/ way" yet in the next paragraph stating " these sort of comments are said all the time" which would indicate such comments are in fact the \m/ way.

This cancellation makes me sad. I always thought of FOK as one of TOP's closest allies and greatest friends. Personally I do not agree at all with the reasoning put forth, but FOK is sovereign and may do what it thinks it should. I still like FOK as an alliance, and hope this path they have chosen is a prosperous one. Thanks for the good times, friends.

Glad to see you folks finally make this official.

Good luck.

Have a pleasant retirement gentlemen and enjoy the fruits of your labor. Also, congratulations to the new Council members.

Good luck to the Gremlins, thank you for the good times.

Every bond has its breaking point. Good luck to MHA and Rok moving forward.

Kronos is a fine alliance. I look forward to positive relations between our alliances in the future.

June, 2007. I believe it was right before the first vietFAN war.